Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[74/171FAN]

Beltway is basically Mike Teevee at this point ignoring Wonka saying "Stop. Don't. Come Back."

[Beltway]

As stupid as I find the "fuck cars" crowd, I find the "cars should reign supreme" crowd equally stupid.

Syracuse does not have any rail transit or busways planned ... likely too small a population ... what mode do you suggest for shifting some of the auto travel to?

[NE2]

As stupid as I find the "fuck cars" crowd, I find the "cars should reign supreme" crowd equally stupid.

Syracuse does not have any rail transit or busways planned ... likely too small a population ... what mode do you suggest for shifting some of the auto travel to?

🐬🐬🐬

[Beltway]

As stupid as I find the "fuck cars" crowd, I find the "cars should reign supreme" crowd equally stupid.

Syracuse does not have any rail transit or busways planned ... likely too small a population ... what mode do you suggest for shifting some of the auto travel to?

🐬🐬🐬

Hammerhead sharks?

[NE2]

🐬🐬🐬

Hammerhead sharks?

Stanley Roberts, for the death of a cow, resulting from the eating of white paint left near fence on Route No. S-31

[kphoger]

You're not going to get much in the way of new discussion if you just keep repeating the same points over and over

How long have you been here, now?

[PColumbus73]

You're not going to get much in the way of new discussion if you just keep repeating the same points over and over

How long have you been here, now?

Nothing that an alien dolphin can't fix.

[Scott5114]

I'm start using that self honorific title of "legacy steward."  It sounds fancy and vaguely important sounding on the surface level.

"Legacy" is a polite euphemism used in tech contexts to mean "obsolete".

[kphoger]

Nothing that an alien dolphin can't fix.

I personally don't think |vdeane| should be destroyed by laser guns.

[kphoger]

"Legacy" is a polite euphemism used in tech contexts to mean "obsolete".

That's why I chuckled when LegaSuite changed its name to Rocket Modern Experience.

[Scott5114]

"Legacy" is a polite euphemism used in tech contexts to mean "obsolete".

That's why I chuckled when LegaSuite changed its name to Rocket Modern Experience.

LegaSuite sounds like a chain made by purchasing outdated luxury hotels.

[PColumbus73]

"Legacy" is a polite euphemism used in tech contexts to mean "obsolete".

That's why I chuckled when LegaSuite changed its name to Rocket Modern Experience.

LegaSuite sounds like a chain made by purchasing outdated luxury hotels.

LegaSuede sounds like a clothing brand from the 70s or 80s.

[vdeane]

As stupid as I find the "fuck cars" crowd, I find the "cars should reign supreme" crowd equally stupid.

Syracuse does not have any rail transit or busways planned ... likely too small a population ... what mode do you suggest for shifting some of the auto travel to?

I question whether Syracuse even has enough traffic to require a substantial mode shift, especially as one of the aims of the community grid alternative is to spread the traffic out rather than concentrate it all in one corridor.  It's very telling that, prior to construction beginning on this project, the only routine congestion the Syracuse area had was everybody and their dog trying to take exit 18 in the morning.  The problem wasn't sheer volume - it was how everybody was concentrated in one spot.

I don't know if you understand just how much upstate NY has shrunk over the decades.  In 1950, the population peaked at 220,583.  By 2020, it had dropped to 148,620.  This trend has been mirrored in other cities across the state.  Even NYC only grows thanks to immigration.  And in growing areas, you have the opposite problem - the population overwhelms not just the existing, but theoretically possible amount that can be accommodated by driving alone.  "Just one more lane" is never going to fix it no matter how many more lanes you add.  Just look at Toronto.  ON 401 is 12 lanes of express/collector congestion.  Not to mention that not everyone can drive (or wants to).  Owning a car is a huge expense, one that many people would rather not deal with (there's reason why the "cities are crime-ridden hell-holes" narrative started to be pushed by people funded with money from fossil fuel companies right around the same time New Urbanism was taking off in the US).  Not to mention that the reason why we make it so ridiculously easy to get a license and rarely revoke them (leading to many people being on the roads who should not be) is because we've built our infrastructure so that people have to drive.

I also find it interesting that you only mention rail transit and busways.  Are walking, bicycling, regular transit, and bikeshare/electric scooter programs not transportation in your mind?

You're not going to get much in the way of new discussion if you just keep repeating the same points over and over

How long have you been here, now?

Too long (assuming "here" is this thread).

[dlsterner]

"Legacy" is a polite euphemism used in tech contexts to mean "obsolete".

That's why I chuckled when LegaSuite changed its name to Rocket Modern Experience.

LegaSuite sounds like a chain made by purchasing outdated luxury hotels.

LegaSuede sounds like a clothing brand from the 70s or 80s.

I had a LegaSuede leisure suit in the 70s.

[kphoger]

(assuming "here" is this thread)

I meant the AARoads forum.

[Beltway]

I question whether Syracuse even has enough traffic to warrant a substantial mode shift, especially as one of the aims of the community grid alternative is to spread the traffic out rather than concentrate it all in one corridor.  It's very telling that, prior to construction beginning on this project, the only routine congestion the Syracuse area had was everybody and their dog trying to take exit 18 in the morning.  The problem wasn't sheer volume - it was how everybody was concentrated in one spot.

Richmond doesn't have much routine congestion but it does have some. The comprehensive freeway and arterial system is the reason things work as well as they do.

Severing the Downtown Expressway (40,000 to 60,000 vehicles/day, depending on segment) or the Powhite Parkway (70,000 to 90,000 vehicles/day across key segments) would spread traffic out but given their AADTs the overall effect would be a mess.

Severing either corridor would force tens of thousands of vehicles onto surface arterials like Forest Hill Avenue, Midlothian Turnpike, and Broad Street. While traffic might "spread out", the result would be modal chaos, signal saturation, and infrastructure churn -- especially in neighborhoods not designed for high-throughput flow.

I rode a GRTC express bus to and from work downtown for 24 years, a 8-mile trip that took about 20 minutes, and it used segments of both of the above expressways. When using the local bus when needed mid-day it takes 2 to 1/2 times longer. Numbers of express bus routes in GRTC.

Another benefit of urban freeways -- express bus service.

I don't know if you understand just how much upstate NY has shrunk over the decades.  In 1950, the population peaked at 220,583.  By 2020, it had dropped to 148,620.  This trend has been mirrored in other cities across the state.  Even NYC only grows thanks to immigration.  And in growing areas, you have the opposite problem - the population overwhelms not just the existing, but theoretically possible amount that can be accommodated by driving alone. 

Some core cities (like Buffalo NY where I go several times a year) have declined considerably while the metro area has increased considerably.

In 1950, the Syracuse metro area had approximately 376,000 people; by 2020, it had grown to 662,057, despite the city itself shrinking.

Syracuse's estimated total vehicle miles traveled (VMT) in 1950 was around 1.2 billion miles, while in 2020 it reached approximately 6.4 billion miles, reflecting a fivefold increase driven by suburbanization. VMT nearly everywhere has expanded percentagewise far more than the total population increased.

Owning a car is a huge expense, one that many people would rather not deal with (there's reason why the "cities are crime-ridden hell-holes" narrative started to be pushed by people funded with money from fossil fuel companies right around the same time New Urbanism was taking off in the US).  Not to mention that the reason why we make it so ridiculously easy to get a license and rarely revoke them (leading to many people being on the roads who should not be) is because we've built our infrastructure so that people have to drive.

Need to live in a much bigger metro than the two above if you want to go carless. The ones with high capacity transit infrastructure.

Like Washington, Phila., New York or Chicago, etc.

I also find it interesting that you only mention rail transit and busways.  Are walking, bicycling, regular transit, and bikeshare/electric scooter programs not transportation in your mind?

GRTC's total ridership in Fiscal Year 2025 exceeded 12 million boardings, with weekday averages around 37,300 riders. The Pulse BRT line averages around 6,000 boardings per weekday. Richmond metro is about 1.5 million population.

These definitely help but still non-auto modes are a small percentage in such medium sized metros. Richmond about 3%.

Syracuse does have express bus service that utilizes I-81, primarily operated by Centro, the region's public transit provider.

The current I-81 viaduct enables Centro's regional express routes to maintain speed and reliability. Without it, buses will be forced onto slower surface streets, eroding commuter confidence and regional connectivity.

[vdeane]

Syracuse does have express bus service that utilizes I-81, primarily operated by Centro, the region's public transit provider.

The current I-81 viaduct enables Centro's regional express routes to maintain speed and reliability. Without it, buses will be forced onto slower surface streets, eroding commuter confidence and regional connectivity.

Just checked the map.  None of them go from one end of the viaduct to the other.  You're talking about a few blocks of the 510.

Need to live in a much bigger metro than the two above if you want to go carless. The ones with high capacity transit infrastructure.

Like Washington, Phila., New York or Chicago, etc.

Believe it or not, people do it.  My coworker didn't have a car for many years.  And when the pedestrian path over the Dunn Memorial Bridge had an emergency closure a couple years ago, NYSDOT got a few complaints from people who use it to commute.

And the disparity is itself a political decision.  In many other countries, it's quite possible to not need a car even in small metro areas.  Including the Netherlands, which had gone all-in on cars like the US before reversing course (and, though New Urbanists tend not to talk about it much, still has well-developed car infrastructure - proving that it's not about choosing one or the other).

[Scott5114]

Syracuse does have express bus service that utilizes I-81, primarily operated by Centro, the region's public transit provider.

The current I-81 viaduct enables Centro's regional express routes to maintain speed and reliability. Without it, buses will be forced onto slower surface streets, eroding commuter confidence and regional connectivity.

Just checked the map.  None of them go from one end of the viaduct to the other.  You're talking about a few blocks of the 510.

Need to live in a much bigger metro than the two above if you want to go carless. The ones with high capacity transit infrastructure.

Like Washington, Phila., New York or Chicago, etc.

Believe it or not, people do it.  My coworker didn't have a car for many years.  And when the pedestrian path over the Dunn Memorial Bridge had an emergency closure a couple years ago, NYSDOT got a few complaints from people who use it to commute.

And the disparity is itself a political decision.  In many other countries, it's quite possible to not need a car even in small metro areas.  Including the Netherlands, which had gone all-in on cars like the US before reversing course (and, though New Urbanists tend not to talk about it much, still has well-developed car infrastructure - proving that it's not about choosing one or the other).

You know, you can get Beltway's opinion on things much faster by just going to chatgpt.com yourself and typing your argument in there. Although it would probably be easier to just stop caring what he thinks, because he clearly doesn't care what anyone else here thinks.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeah but where is the fun in that?  After thirty plus pages we ought to get some entertainment value.

[vdeane]

Although it would probably be easier to just stop caring what he thinks

I might need to talk to my therapist about that topic.

(not Beltway specifically, though it would be funnier)

[Beltway]

Although it would probably be easier to just stop caring what he thinks

I might need to talk to my therapist about that topic.
(not Beltway specifically, though it would be funnier)

Another syndrome that some road geeks have is luposlipaphobia.

[Scott5114]

Although it would probably be easier to just stop caring what he thinks

I might need to talk to my therapist about that topic.
(not Beltway specifically, though it would be funnier)

Another syndrome that some road geeks have is luposlipaphobia.

If you hate roadgeeks so much, why are you on the main roadgeek forum? You should probably leave.

[Max Rockatansky]

Although it would probably be easier to just stop caring what he thinks

I might need to talk to my therapist about that topic.
(not Beltway specifically, though it would be funnier)

Another syndrome that some road geeks have is luposlipaphobia.

If you hate roadgeeks so much, why are you on the main roadgeek forum? You should probably leave.

I tend to see this as Beltway has "certain opinions" about what road enthusiasts should be.  I find that ironic given some of the groups he participates (and touted at least once) in on the Facebook side of things would be the equivalent to road fan McDonald's value menu (cheap and unfilling).  That kind of thing is fine I suppose but they in no way resemble his 1997-era hobby page ideals he seems to hold so highly.

[Beltway]

Although it would probably be easier to just stop caring what he thinks

I might need to talk to my therapist about that topic.
(not Beltway specifically, though it would be funnier)

Another syndrome that some road geeks have is luposlipaphobia.

If you hate roadgeeks so much, why are you on the main roadgeek forum? You should probably leave.

Just responding to the streams of trolling and vitriol sent my way in recent weeks. Actually much of it has been rather lame.

I am a lot more skilled at it than some people might guess.

[Max Rockatansky]

What vitriol to be exact?  More a case of you seem shocked that your opinions on the Key Bridge replacement weren't met with universal acclaim.  Where is that silent majority you mentioned that supposedly had your back again?