Control Cities

[JayhawkCO]

Limon is too small a town to be a control city.

No it's not. There is no threshold of the size of a place in order to be selected. Limon was selected because it's the junction of I-70, US-24, US-40, US-287, CO-71 and CO-86.

I also feel like most of the people who argue against Limon being a control city haven't actually been there.  I'm not saying it's a metropolis, but there's always a whole lot of traffic at every gas station/restaurant/etc.  There are way more hotels/car dealerships/etc. than a town of its size normally has.  It sure seems like it's somewhat of a destination for travelers, which is the whole point of control cities.

Chris

[Flint1979]

Limon is too small a town to be a control city.

No it's not. There is no threshold of the size of a place in order to be selected. Limon was selected because it's the junction of I-70, US-24, US-40, US-287, CO-71 and CO-86.

I also feel like most of the people who argue against Limon being a control city haven't actually been there.  I'm not saying it's a metropolis, but there's always a whole lot of traffic at every gas station/restaurant/etc.  There are way more hotels/car dealerships/etc. than a town of its size normally has.  It sure seems like it's somewhat of a destination for travelers, which is the whole point of control cities.

Chris

I agree,

[Roadgeekteen]

I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.

But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.

Denver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.

[thspfc]

I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.

But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.

Denver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.

Starting at I-76, Denver Airport should be used as the control for I-70 EB until Pena Blvd. After that it should be Kansas. I would also accept Salina, Kansas City, or even Texas before I would accept Limon.

[TXtoNJ]

I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.

But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.

Denver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.

Control city doesn't mean "the next big city". Control city means "the next important town for navigation".

Limon is very important for navigation to and from the Front Range - it more than deserves its prominent location.

[thenetwork]

I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.

But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.

Denver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.

Control city doesn't mean "the next big city". Control city means "the next important town for navigation".

Limon is very important for navigation to and from the Front Range - it more than deserves its prominent location.

I kind of see Limon as a kind of Wytheville, VA, where traffic from any direction on any route usually splits into 2 different directions ‐- and happening more than at other junctions.

Also, for I-75 SB from Toledo, I'm surprised that Findlay isn't used more as a CC than just Dayton.  For it's there that it seems just as much traffic will head southeast to Columbus as there is traffic turning Southwest on I-75. 

...or at least co-sign SB I-75 for Dayton AND Columbus between Toledo and Findlay.  Yes, I know some people may still stay on US-23 from Toledo all the way to Columbus, but it's not the fastest route.

[Roadgeekteen]

Sturbridge is also very important for navigation- going east, traffic going to NYC or CT will take I-84 in Sturbridge. Possibly more traffic exits I-90 than stays on it. Sturbridge has about 9 times as many people as Limon. I've never been much of a fan of posting random junction towns on signs- Limon is irrelevant- if you really want people to know that you can get to Colorado Springs from I-70 west dual sign Colorado Springs. And Limon isn't even an interstate junction. And I'm going to bet that the vast majority of traffic on I-70 west is going to Denver.

[US 89]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

[Roadgeekteen]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

I understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).

[Occidental Tourist]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

I understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).

Don't move to California.  Your head would explode if you saw the control cities on our signs.

[Flint1979]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

I understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).

Once again the size of a control city doesn't matter when it comes to being a control city. So why would a bigger more famous city need to be signed when community size has nothing to do with control cities?

[thspfc]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

I understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).

Once again the size of a control city doesn't matter when it comes to being a control city. So why would a bigger more famous city need to be signed when community size has nothing to do with control cities?

Flint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.

[JayhawkCO]

Flint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.

I just don't see the need to use an airport as a control city.  The little airplane icon on the exits (which are plentiful in the metro area) to get you to the airport is plenty.

Chris

[sprjus4]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

I understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).

Once again the size of a control city doesn't matter when it comes to being a control city. So why would a bigger more famous city need to be signed when community size has nothing to do with control cities?

To give motorists a good understanding of where a route is going. If I was unfamiliar with the area, or even potentially lost, seeing "Limon"  would tell me nothing. If I saw "Kansas City"  or "Denver" , however (which they should be throughout), it would be far more clearer.

Yes, you keep refuting there's no size a control city has to be. That is true. However, that doesn't mean we should just sign every small town. Control cities are also to serve a purpose in guidance, and using the larger, more notable ones along the route is far more useful to out-of-state, through traffic, etc. than a small town of 5,000.

[kphoger]

Limon is irrelevant

This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.

When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.

Agreed.  I grew up in northwestern Kansas.  Everyone in the area knows where Limon is.  It certainly has regional importance for wayfinding.

Flint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.

While "completely irrelevant" doesn't seem like the sort of phrase that should be followed by "compared to" (is it absolute or relative?), I do agree that Denver and Kansas City would be more appropriate choices.  As for the host of other cities, I don't think Burlington or Hays or Salina or or Topeka are any more useful than Limon for traffic heading east from Denver, but I think Limon is only useful for westbound traffic west of Hays.  The trouble with the situation I just described is that I tend to favor using the same control city pair for both directions.

To give motorists a good understanding of where a route is going. If I was unfamiliar with the area, or even potentially lost, seeing "Limon"  would tell me nothing. If I saw "Kansas City"  or "Denver" , however (which they should be throughout), it would be far more clearer.

I think that, for most people, not much better understanding would be gained by seeing Kansas City rather than Limon.  If someone already knows that I-70 reaches Kansas City from Denver, then that person likely also already knows it goes through Limon.  As I already mentioned, however, the same does not apply westbound:  if someone already knows that I-70 reaches Denver from Kansas, then there's no such likelihood the person also knows it goes through Limon.

[Daniel Fiddler]

If Limon is a viable control city (which I too concede it may be), I nominate Jackson, TN as a viable control city.

It has a city population of 68,205.

It is in a county with a population of 98,823.

Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart.  Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. 

It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and US 45 south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)

It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels

Do I need to say more?

The only thing NOT going for Jackson?

It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.

[hotdogPi]

If Limon is a viable control city (which I too concede it may be), I nominate Jackson, TN as a viable control city.

It has a city population of 68,205.

It is in a county with a population of 98,823.

Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart.  Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. 

It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and  US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)

It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels

Do I need to say more?

The only thing NOT going for Jackson?

It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.

As long as it doesn't get confused with Jackson, Mississippi...

[Daniel Fiddler]

If Limon is a viable control city (which I too concede it may be), I nominate Jackson, TN as a viable control city.

It has a city population of 68,205.

It is in a county with a population of 98,823.

Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart.  Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. 

It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and  US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)

It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels

Do I need to say more?

The only thing NOT going for Jackson?

It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.

As long as it doesn't get confused with Jackson, Mississippi...

I think in Memphis they already have signs that state "Jackson Miss", they can just have signs that say "Jackson Tenn"

[Flint1979]

Limon is the control city because it's a junction. Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city. As mentioned it's a well known locale throughout the region. It's fine as a control city I can see exactly why it's one.

[sprjus4]

Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city.

Then that defeats the purpose of it being an effective control city for long distance travelers.

[thspfc]

Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city.

This is, effectively, conceding the argument without literally doing so. That line is not true and you know it. Road signs are not made with roadgeeks in mind. If they were, there would be barely any road signs at all to begin with because roadgeeks don't need them (and the ones that would exist would be button copy  ).

[kphoger]

But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either?  Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?

[thspfc]

But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either?  Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?

On major cross-country Interstates like I-70? Mostly non-local drivers.

[Scott5114]

Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".

If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)

[Flint1979]

But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either?  Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?

Since control cities are selected by the state's DOT I would assume that they are decided with local/regional drivers in mind.