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[Bobby5280]

There's no way Loop 9 is getting done using gasoline tax revenue alone. The state and federal government would have to allocate a big chunk of funding. Otherwise the thing would have to be built a segment at a time as a toll road.

I think Loop 9 is down the list of priorities however. A freeway or toll road connection is badly needed between Denton and McKinney (thanks to much of US-380 being overrun with development). The 2nd phase of the I-35E expansion from Dallas to Denton is due to start in the coming years. The SE extension of the Bush Turnpike (from I-30 down to I-20) has been in limbo for too long. TX-114 badly needs to be improved to freeway standards to Texas Motor Speedway and all the way to US-287 in Rhome. Plus TX-114 and I-35W needs some kind of directional stack interchange, which should be a very tough design challenge thanks to all the encroachment by developers onto 3 corners of the property. The list of projects goes on and on.

[In_Correct]

Yes. Toll Every Thing.

[Bobby5280]

Most of those projects would probably have to carry tolls on them if they're going to get completed any time in the near future. It's either that or the construction companies and engineers will have to figure out some way how to build new super highway projects for less money. We know that sure isn't going to happen!

[Chris]

They need to identify a large new source of funding if tolling is not politically viable. Otherwise these megaprojects don't get build, or very incrementally over a long period of time. However the Dallas-Fort Worth population is growing rapidly so there isn't time to wait for incremental construction.

According to the TomTom Traffic Index, Dallas-Fort Worth has the least congestion of any metro area over 5 million people in the world, but it won't stay that way if they don't get these large projects going.

[Bobby5280]

That "least congestion" term for the DFW metroplex is definitely a relative term to those metros with over 5 million people. I've been in a decent number of traffic jams in Dallas, both on freeways and surface streets. The surface streets in some areas can be a real slog. Northern areas of Dallas, such as Addison, can put drivers through quite an ordeal.

One of the bright sides about Dallas from the perspective of surface streets is some of the newer additions have been limiting the number of driveways that empty out into the main arterials, reducing the number of traffic signals and incorporating more lanes into the main roads. I'm not a big fan of these partial, interim solutions -like the 2-2T-2T-2 arrangement on I-820 in Fort Worth or the narrow lanes on I-35W. But that's just one of the realities that come with having only so much money to fund a massive highway project.

[Plutonic Panda]

I just don’t see how a belt around the DFW metro could happen anytime soon without tolls. I bet it’s at least a 10 billion dollar project. I would be more than happy to pay tolls and it could be a six lane 85 MPH speed limit road that is designed first and foremost as a real bypass.

I have always wondered if something like building a large elevated bridge along I-35 W and having one 2-3 exits through the entire city would work.

[Chris]

That "least congestion" term for the DFW metroplex is definitely a relative term to those metros with over 5 million people. I've been in a decent number of traffic jams in Dallas, both on freeways and surface streets. The surface streets in some areas can be a real slog. Northern areas of Dallas, such as Addison, can put drivers through quite an ordeal.

The American perception of what is bad traffic may be different from the rest of the world. Apart from a few really congested cities like Los Angeles and New York, traffic congestion in the United States is considerably less than elsewhere in the world, especially cities with a metro area under 3 million have much less congestion than similar sized cities in Europe and Asia.

For example: Houston ranks 224th and Dallas 308th in travel time delays worldwide (out of 416 cities). U.S. cities make up a considerable majority of the world's 100 least congested cities.

You can see the whole list here: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/

[Bobby5280]

I have always wondered if something like building a large elevated bridge along I-35 W and having one 2-3 exits through the entire city would work.

Elevated bridge structures are not very popular politically, although TX DOT does seem to have more success building such structures than most other state DOT organizations. Still, DFW has too many major route connections for any super express route built along I-35W or I-35E to have only a couple or so exits.

I think what we'll see happen is further expansion of concepts like the I-35E/I-635 TEXpress lanes in North Dallas. Austin is going to do something along those lines with I-35, but likely with the more costly alternative of putting the express lanes in deep bore tunnels under everything else.

The American perception of what is bad traffic may be different from the rest of the world.

A traffic jam is a traffic jam. I remember one experience on the West side of Houston. It took me a half hour just to get through a cluster of stop light signals on Gessner Road to get onto I-10. A hospital complex was on the left and a big mall off to the right. It was a total clusterf***. This wasn't even during rush hour either.

Then there's the factors that seem uniquely American. Like idiots who can't seem to leave their phones alone for more than a few minutes of time. So if you're on a really busy street jammed with traffic and the green light leaves only so long a window of time for cars to move it leaves no room for delays. When some moron has to finish writing his text message or tweet before the people behind him can move the moron creates a chain reaction of delays (and road rage) for everyone behind him. The same goes for people who drive abnormally slow through intersections. As you might be able to tell, I really don't like slow drivers.

[BrandonC_TX]

Refuse the Skinny Lanes before they narrow to 6 feet.

I know that comment about 6 foot lanes was meant to be sarcastic, but it made me think about having narrow motorcycle lanes on freeways as an interesting traffic solution; that said, I don't think motorcycles are popular enough here to justify the use of dedicated motorcycle lanes.  In Indonesia, where motorcycles are more popular, there are a few examples of motorcycle lanes (actually separate "roads" pretty much) on the Suramadu Bridge and the Bali Mandara Toll Road. Keep in mind that motorcycles are normally prohibited from using the toll roads in Indonesia (and are only allowed on these roads because of the barrier-separated motorcycle lanes).

[Bobby5280]

Thanks to compulsive mobile phone users and other people who drive with their heads firmly reverse-birthed up their @$$es, it's pretty much a life-risking thing to drive a motorcycle on busy streets or highways in the US now. It's even risky riding a bicycle. I really do NOT like fake bicycle paths that consist of nothing more than a painted "lane" on the shoulder of a street, or signage saying the street is "shared" between bicycles and motor vehicles. That's just a joke and total denial of reality.

[motorola870]

That "least congestion" term for the DFW metroplex is definitely a relative term to those metros with over 5 million people. I've been in a decent number of traffic jams in Dallas, both on freeways and surface streets. The surface streets in some areas can be a real slog. Northern areas of Dallas, such as Addison, can put drivers through quite an ordeal.

The American perception of what is bad traffic may be different from the rest of the world. Apart from a few really congested cities like Los Angeles and New York, traffic congestion in the United States is considerably less than elsewhere in the world, especially cities with a metro area under 3 million have much less congestion than similar sized cities in Europe and Asia.

For example: Houston ranks 224th and Dallas 308th in travel time delays worldwide (out of 416 cities). U.S. cities make up a considerable majority of the world's 100 least congested cities.

You can see the whole list here: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/

The DFW metro is 7 million people not 3 million. 3 million might be in the urban core but overall it 7 million now.

[-- US 175 --]

The LBJ East project (US 75 to I-30) has taken its first construction step--the managed HOV lanes have closed as of today, and won't reopen until the project is complete in 2024.

https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/04-23-20-txdot-takes-first-step-in-lbj-east-project-in-north-dallas/

[Bobby5280]

The DFW metro is 7 million people not 3 million. 3 million might be in the urban core but overall it 7 million now.

Yeah, the metropolitan statistical area population of the DFW metroplex is around 7.4 million people. Dallas alone has a city limits population of 1.345 million (2018 estimate). Fort Worth is up to 895,000 (2018 estimate) for its city limits population. Arlington has nearly 400,000 people. DFW literally has dozens of other city-sized suburbs clustered around the two main twin cities. It's a pretty remarkable metro area. It's especially remarkable for how fast it has been growing. Cities like Frisco barely existed 20 years ago. Now it's getting packed with development.

Houston is another one. The city limits population is 2.3 million (2018). The metro population is over 6 million.

San Antonio has the 2nd largest city limits population in Texas with almost 1.5 million people. Austin is on the verge of passing the 1 million mark, the 2018 estimate is 964,254. About 5 million people live in the Austin and San Antonio region. Small but rapidly growing cities like San Marcos and New Braunfels will make those two big city metros merge together.

[Chris]

That "least congestion" term for the DFW metroplex is definitely a relative term to those metros with over 5 million people. I've been in a decent number of traffic jams in Dallas, both on freeways and surface streets. The surface streets in some areas can be a real slog. Northern areas of Dallas, such as Addison, can put drivers through quite an ordeal.

The American perception of what is bad traffic may be different from the rest of the world. Apart from a few really congested cities like Los Angeles and New York, traffic congestion in the United States is considerably less than elsewhere in the world, especially cities with a metro area under 3 million have much less congestion than similar sized cities in Europe and Asia.

For example: Houston ranks 224th and Dallas 308th in travel time delays worldwide (out of 416 cities). U.S. cities make up a considerable majority of the world's 100 least congested cities.

You can see the whole list here: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/

The DFW metro is 7 million people not 3 million. 3 million might be in the urban core but overall it 7 million now.

I never said the DFW metro has 3 million people, you can read what I wrote in the post you've just quoted... 

[bwana39]

I just don’t see how a belt around the DFW metro could happen anytime soon without tolls. I bet it’s at least a 10 billion dollar project. I would be more than happy to pay tolls and it could be a six lane 85 MPH speed limit road that is designed first and foremost as a real bypass.

I have always wondered if something like building a large elevated bridge along I-35 W and having one 2-3 exits through the entire city would work.

I want to clarify one thing. When you are talking about a major city. Loop and Bypass are not the same thing.  a 46 mile loop even at 85 MPH will rarely entice drivers from a 15 to 20 mile route through the heart of the city.

[bwana39]

I have always wondered if something like building a large elevated bridge along I-35 W and having one 2-3 exits through the entire city would work.

Elevated bridge structures are not very popular politically, although TX DOT does seem to have more success building such structures than most other state DOT organizations.

Texas has a bigger buffer with the Through Frontage Roads and since the frontage roads are there, there are mostly commercial facilities adjacent to the freeway elevated or not.  It isn't more acceptable because it is Texas. It is less opposed because homes and parks are seldom immediately adjacent to the freeway itself.

[Bobby5280]

I never said the DFW metro has 3 million people, you can read what I wrote in the post you've just quoted...

It still looks implied. You brought up an arbitrary metro population figure of 3 million in one sentence. The next "For Example" sentence lists Houston and Dallas. It would have been better to use cities with metro populations closer to that 3 million figure than two metros double that size.

[davmillar]

I just don’t see how a belt around the DFW metro could happen anytime soon without tolls. I bet it’s at least a 10 billion dollar project. I would be more than happy to pay tolls and it could be a six lane 85 MPH speed limit road that is designed first and foremost as a real bypass.

I have always wondered if something like building a large elevated bridge along I-35 W and having one 2-3 exits through the entire city would work.

Hmmm... it's weird hearing that perspective and living in the metro and seeing all of the problems with travel from one part to another, not even considering through traffic.

I live in west Fort Worth near where west loop I-820 and I-30 cross, and my day job relocated to Lewisville, very near to where I-35E and TX-121/SRT cross. There are so many little headaches along the handful of ways to get there and back, and all of their problems seem to stem from construction meant to alleviate other problems. I'm presently very thankful to be working from home full-time. (And likely 3-4 days per week even if there is a return to the office.) The real solution feels like fixing the housing around the metro and telling everyone to get their crap together and move near work instead of 45 minutes to 2 hours away... or maybe the glorious age of remote work will remove the need for so much commuting?

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ personally, I don’t mind a nice 20-30 commute. Above 30 minutes each way gets old but I enjoy driving, listening to music, and I clear my mind when I drive. What takes 100 percent of the fun out of that is when I hit stop and go traffic. I don’t even mind a little bit of congestion but when it becomes stop and go, I start getting pissed off.

[Bobby5280]

I like it that the roads are continually improving in Dallas-Fort Worth. However, I've never really enjoyed driving in the DFW metroplex. I'm always on edge, trying to stay hyper-alert. The tolls on the express lanes can be pretty high. But some of the traffic jams on the free lanes can be soul-crushing. Getting around on the surface streets in some areas can be a real fiasco.

The real solution feels like fixing the housing around the metro and telling everyone to get their crap together and move near work instead of 45 minutes to 2 hours away... or maybe the glorious age of remote work will remove the need for so much commuting?

The "New Urbanist" fantasy of getting everyone to live in or very close to dense downtown districts gets completely shot to hell by the real world factor of extreme living costs. Just living in an urban or suburban setting is getting to be financially unsustainable for many people without even bringing in the premium priced downtown properties into the equation.

Suburban sprawl is literally fueled by people trying to find housing that doesn't eat most of their paychecks. Then there's the lesser factors. Some people who can afford the high costs of downtown housing move out to the suburbs for peace and quiet. Maybe they want a bigger home for the same amount of money. Or maybe they want their kids going to schools where more of the kids are white and middle/upper class.

This pandemic may also add another factor to sour people on dense downtown living environments. I've seen a couple news articles about high rise property owners in New York City being fearful a Pandora's box of sorts has been opened. Many businesses have found out it's not so bad having employees work in a "telecommuting" environment. And they might be able to save a fortune on office space rent.

[BrandonC_TX]

This pandemic may also add another factor to sour people on dense downtown living environments. I've seen a couple news articles about high rise property owners in New York City being fearful a Pandora's box of sorts has been opened. Many businesses have found out it's not so bad having employees work in a "telecommuting" environment. And they might be able to save a fortune on office space rent.

It is not necessarily dense areas that are fueling the spread of COVID-19.  One viewpoint promoted by the The New York Times seems to connect impoverished dense areas (that are more overcrowded) with viral spread, but not necessarily dense areas per se, if they are not overcrowded or if the residents are wealthier. 

What really matters for the future of dense development and New Urbanism is the perception that dense areas are problematic.  The pandemic has made an imprint on the human psyche that we are better off isolating ourselves, which if this continues post-COVID-19 (behavioral habits take time to adjust), would continue to fuel the type of development seen in suburban sprawl.  The problem with density at this point would likely involve overcrowding at amenities, such as parks, along sidewalks, and at other features that enhance quality-of-life for those living in a dense city.  If you live in a fairly dense city in a somewhat-small apartment, you will want to leave the house from time-to-time.  It is impossible to practice social distancing if the sidewalks are not extremely wide, particularly in situations where you encounter oncoming pedestrians.

I locked down in mid-March and probably did not leave my house, with the exception of visiting family members, for a month.  By mid-April I started getting out a few times a week, but I have not yet done anything that would require me to leave my car.  I do live in a single-family home on a fairly large lot (that has some empty property behind it that we also own), so it is almost like I have my own private park.