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Author Topic: I-69 in TX  (Read 593108 times)

sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1600 on: December 30, 2019, 11:12:15 AM »

Interesting that they're including state road 44 east of US 59 as part of the I-69 system.  I wonder if it'll get an interstate number.

It's actually been a part of the corridor cluster for a while, but nothing has really been mentioned in detail as to how redeveloped and improved TX 44 will really become, nor has anything specific been mentioned up to now regarding any redesignation (not that there's been a lack of speculation here on the forum) of the route once anything happens to it.  By the looks of that map, TX 44 isn't getting as much I-69 -related attention as other parts of the corridors.
There is certainly work ongoing on that corridor - at least between Corpus Christi and Robstown.

About half of that corridor was previously frontage roads with a wide median for a future mainline, and that mainline is now currently under construction, and will include 3 interchanges when completed.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1601 on: December 30, 2019, 11:53:48 AM »

Yeah, TX-44 is being converted to a freeway for the full length between I-69E in Robstown and the TX-358 freeway in Corpus Christi. I don't know the Interstate number it could receive or if it will ultimately receive an Interstate number. If it was designated as an Interstate another question would arise as to where the Interstate would officially end. Would it bump up North along TX-358 to meet I-37? Or might it follow TX-358 down to North Padre Island?

Then there's the matter of the TX-44 legs to Alice and Freer. TX-44 is a (mostly) four lane route between Alice and Robstown. I can see that getting upgraded to Interstate quality not too many years after this current upgrade is finished. It may be a longer time before the road between Alice and Freer is upgraded. But it would ultimately be a Laredo-Corpus corridor. If cross-border trade between the US & Mexico is more normalized there would be significantly more traffic moving along that corridor between Northern Mexico cities like Monterrey and the ports at Brownsville and Corpus Christi. Tampico is Mexico's Northern-most port city in the Gulf of Mexico and it's way South of Monterrey and the Rio Grande Valley region.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1602 on: December 30, 2019, 12:15:53 PM »

Yeah, TX-44 is being converted to a freeway for the full length between I-69E in Robstown and the TX-358 freeway in Corpus Christi.
Not all the way to I-69E on the current projects, there is still about a mile long gap that is a 5-lane road east of I-69E.

If the Robstown Bypass is ever built, it would bypass that 5-lane segment and tie seamlessly into the freeway segment, along with providing a full freeway-to-freeway interchange with I-69E.

I don't know the Interstate number it could receive or if it will ultimately receive an Interstate number. If it was designated as an Interstate another question would arise as to where the Interstate would officially end. Would it bump up North along TX-358 to meet I-37? Or might it follow TX-358 down to North Padre Island?
I could see it just ending at TX-358, but if it were to continue, routing it along TX-358 down to Flour Bluff would be the most beneficial and provide the main corridor through southeastern Corpus Christi with an interstate designation, along with connecting with NAS Corpus Christi.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1603 on: December 30, 2019, 02:17:29 PM »

NAS Corpus Christi would bring up a reminder of one of the Interstate Highway System's original purposes: aiding National Defense. Just before the beginning of the JFK Memorial Causeway TX-358 actually swings to the Northeast, going directly to the Main Gate of the Naval Air Station.
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Finrod

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1604 on: January 02, 2020, 02:38:20 PM »

I don't know the Interstate number it could receive or if it will ultimately receive an Interstate number. If it was designated as an Interstate another question would arise as to where the Interstate would officially end. Would it bump up North along TX-358 to meet I-37? Or might it follow TX-358 down to North Padre Island?
I could see it just ending at TX-358, but if it were to continue, routing it along TX-358 down to Flour Bluff would be the most beneficial and provide the main corridor through southeastern Corpus Christi with an interstate designation, along with connecting with NAS Corpus Christi.

If it's routed to the south like that, and it was to get an interstate number, what would it get?  It's not long enough for a 2di, and it wouldn't touch I-37 so it wouldn't be eligible to get an x37 number.  Also, odd or even for the first digit?
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1605 on: January 02, 2020, 05:35:32 PM »

I don't know the Interstate number it could receive or if it will ultimately receive an Interstate number. If it was designated as an Interstate another question would arise as to where the Interstate would officially end. Would it bump up North along TX-358 to meet I-37? Or might it follow TX-358 down to North Padre Island?
I could see it just ending at TX-358, but if it were to continue, routing it along TX-358 down to Flour Bluff would be the most beneficial and provide the main corridor through southeastern Corpus Christi with an interstate designation, along with connecting with NAS Corpus Christi.

If it's routed to the south like that, and it was to get an interstate number, what would it get?  It's not long enough for a 2di, and it wouldn't touch I-37 so it wouldn't be eligible to get an x37 number.  Also, odd or even for the first digit?
I-x69...
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kphoger

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1606 on: January 02, 2020, 05:49:07 PM »

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Scott5114

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1607 on: January 02, 2020, 06:08:29 PM »

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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1608 on: January 02, 2020, 07:05:03 PM »

^^^^^^^^^
Somehow I don't think I-69N (for Navy/Naval Base) would fly!  But seriously, the chances are that any Interstate route along TX 44, be it a trunk or 3di number, will simply shunt up to I-37 over that short stretch of TX 358.  But if, somehow, local parties get it moved to the southern CC bypass, it would be simple to just declare the short 44-to-37 stretch a "spur" (like spur I-270 at the DC Beltway) and sign the various interchanges "TO I-6 (or x69)" and "TO I-37", which would facilitate movement between the two routes.   
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1609 on: January 02, 2020, 07:20:53 PM »

southern CC bypass
The proposed Regional Parkway, or TX-358?

The TX-358 South Padre Island Drive is certainly not a "bypass", it's a major 6-8 lane urban freeway serving the entire eastern half of the city and a tourist road to Padre Island during peak weekends.
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1610 on: January 03, 2020, 01:46:53 AM »

southern CC bypass
The proposed Regional Parkway, or TX-358?

The TX-358 South Padre Island Drive is certainly not a "bypass", it's a major 6-8 lane urban freeway serving the entire eastern half of the city and a tourist road to Padre Island during peak weekends.

I was referring to TX 358, which allows traffic to bypass central Corpus Christi en route to the NAS and the outer islands.   Now whether that bypass function is the primary rationale for the route is pretty moot; it could conceivably be called a long virtual spur of I-37.  Regardless of the semantics here, there would be a lot of possibilities regarding a potential Interstate designation.  Until we all know what TX 44's I-designation will be, speculation belongs more in the fictional realm.  But also it's likely that if such a designation for 358 were contemplated, it probably would have happened as a x37 well before the I-69 system entered the local picture;  spurs have been commissioned with less demonstrated value than this one. 
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1611 on: January 03, 2020, 11:16:52 AM »

I could see TX-358 gaining an Interstate designation from the additional angle of being a major Hurricane Evacuation Route for the Corpus Christi area.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1612 on: January 03, 2020, 04:41:55 PM »

^

Realistically, I could see TX-358 becoming a I-x37 between I-37 and Park Road 22. It certainly has merit, and it appears to fully meet interstate standards. The busiest stretch between Ayers St and Nile Dr is currently having its ramps reversed and being expanded, and more than likely will meet full urban interstate standards.
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1613 on: January 03, 2020, 06:56:49 PM »

I could see TX-358 gaining an Interstate designation from the additional angle of being a major Hurricane Evacuation Route for the Corpus Christi area.
^

Realistically, I could see TX-358 becoming a I-x37 between I-37 and Park Road 22. It certainly has merit, and it appears to fully meet interstate standards. The busiest stretch between Ayers St and Nile Dr is currently having its ramps reversed and being expanded, and more than likely will meet full urban interstate standards.


It certainly meets the "defense" criteria for such routes, serving the front gate of a NAS -- in addition to being a recreational access facility.  Hey, if the Fort Drum access road in upstate NY can get I-781 as a designation, a I-137/337/537 shouldn't be out of the question for TX 358.  But TX has a lot of Interstate-grade freeways outside the actual system -- and they don't seem in too much of a hurry to change that status.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1614 on: January 03, 2020, 07:02:01 PM »

and they don't seem in too much of a hurry to change that status.
Unless it's I-69  :bigass:
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1615 on: January 03, 2020, 07:09:08 PM »

and they don't seem in too much of a hurry to change that status.
Unless it's I-69  :bigass:

That is most certainly true -- but I was considering mileage outside of even the I-69 cluster (like TX 288, US 69/96/287 between Beaumont and Port Arthur, etc.) -- that's been around a while. 
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1616 on: January 03, 2020, 07:11:45 PM »

but I was considering mileage outside of even the I-69 cluster (like TX 288, US 69/96/287 between Beaumont and Port Arthur, etc.) -- that's been around a while.
Very true. IIRC, parts of the US-69/US-96/US-287 corridor are not up to interstate standards. TX-288 appears to be for the freeway segment.

US-75 can be added to that from Dallas to Oklahoma. Easily could become an I-45 extension.
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1617 on: January 03, 2020, 07:18:28 PM »

but I was considering mileage outside of even the I-69 cluster (like TX 288, US 69/96/287 between Beaumont and Port Arthur, etc.) -- that's been around a while.
Very true. IIRC, parts of the US-69/US-96/US-287 corridor are not up to interstate standards. TX-288 appears to be for the freeway segment.

US-75 can be added to that from Dallas to Oklahoma. Easily could become an I-45 extension.

I would think that TxDOT would wait until ODOT committed to raising US 69/75 to I-standards at least to the nearest NHS highway interchange (US 70 near Durant) before even considering extending I-45 up US 75.  Then again, they could simply act unilaterally and apply for the designation right to the state line at the Red River crossing, effectively sending ODOT a message imitating the late Ted Knight in Caddyshack:  "Wellllll......we're WAITING!"  :-P
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1618 on: January 03, 2020, 09:10:26 PM »

Such an example has at least a couple or more existing precedents. There's the New York version of I-99 ending at the PA state line. I-41 ends at the Illinois state line.

It does look like ODOT will get US-69/75 improved to Interstate quality at least up to US-70 in Durant. A completed Interstate up to that point would serve the giant WinStar Casino (the biggest in the US) more efficiently and move traffic through that area more safely. It's just too bad the lunkheads farther North in Atoka, Stringtown, etc won't get with the program. But those towns are "graying" fast and not retaining any youth. They'll be ghost towns eventually.
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1619 on: January 04, 2020, 04:24:41 AM »

Such an example has at least a couple or more existing precedents. There's the New York version of I-99 ending at the PA state line. I-41 ends at the Illinois state line.

It does look like ODOT will get US-69/75 improved to Interstate quality at least up to US-70 in Durant. A completed Interstate up to that point would serve the giant WinStar Casino (the biggest in the US) more efficiently and move traffic through that area more safely. It's just too bad the lunkheads farther North in Atoka, Stringtown, etc won't get with the program. But those towns are "graying" fast and not retaining any youth. They'll be ghost towns eventually.

Then, unless the historical objectors start resembling the walking dead, one of the obstacles to upgrading US 69 at least to I-40 if not beyond will be in the rear view mirror.  Then the only thing would be for ODOT to cobble up some funding for the project(s) -- which, considering their recent history, might not occur for some time.   But I suppose miracles can happen....but I for one don't plan to hold my breath! 
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-- US 175 --

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1620 on: January 04, 2020, 12:16:37 PM »

A completed Interstate up to that point would serve the giant WinStar Casino (the biggest in the US) more efficiently and move traffic through that area more safely.

Actually, the Choctaw Casino is the one on US 69-US 75;  while the Winstar is on I-35 (but who's counting?)
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1621 on: January 04, 2020, 03:36:19 PM »

Quote from: US 175
Actually, the Choctaw Casino is the one on US 69-US 75;  while the Winstar is on I-35 (but who's counting?)

Uh, yeah, DERP!!! That is correct.:-D Ugh, how embarrassing.:crazy: Still, the Choctaw Casino is a pretty big facility. It's not on the enormous scale of WinStar, but it's still a pretty big attraction to DFW residents.

Quote from: sparker
Then, unless the historical objectors start resembling the walking dead, one of the obstacles to upgrading US 69 at least to I-40 if not beyond will be in the rear view mirror. Then the only thing would be for ODOT to cobble up some funding for the project(s) -- which, considering their recent history, might not occur for some time. But I suppose miracles can happen....but I for one don't plan to hold my breath!

That's the other really difficult thing about a state losing population. The people moving South of the Red River are taking their tax dollars with them. Many of the citizens leaving are younger, more productive people. We've lost a BUNCH of teachers due to the idiots in OKC. The cursory pay raise they passed recently came out of highway funding via the first fuel tax increase in over 25 years. The right-wing jerks still despise teachers as if they're communists or something. They still think they're going to solve the "education issue" by transforming public schools into private, for-profit, fly-by-night "charter schools" that are free to turn class into Sunday School Monday-Friday. Who cares what young, working families can afford for class tuition or making their kids actually competitive in a GLOBAL marketplace?

Anyway, that rant put aside, the aging folks in Stringtown, Atoka, etc may not want some Interstate highway bypassing their towns. But I guarantee they're a lot more scared about the continued exodus of youth from those towns. They're very scared of the idea that the local K-12 school could eventually close. It's a point of debate on how a superhighway bypass can help or harm a small town. But there is no debate about the consequence of the local school closing. That will kill a small town, guaranteed.
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rte66man

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1622 on: January 04, 2020, 04:57:36 PM »

Quote from: sparker
Then, unless the historical objectors start resembling the walking dead, one of the obstacles to upgrading US 69 at least to I-40 if not beyond will be in the rear view mirror. Then the only thing would be for ODOT to cobble up some funding for the project(s) -- which, considering their recent history, might not occur for some time. But I suppose miracles can happen....but I for one don't plan to hold my breath!

That's the other really difficult thing about a state losing population.


Not true. Early estimates for the 2020 census say there has been growth, small but positive.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/oklahoma-population/

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Bobby5280

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1623 on: January 04, 2020, 09:35:19 PM »

Most of Oklahoma's projected net population gains are happening within the Oklahoma City and Tulsa MSA's. The only notable exceptions to that are Love and Bryan Counties along the Red River. The WinStar and Choctaw Casinos likely have something to do with that population growth in counties that are otherwise fairly low in population.

Most of Oklahoma's rural counties are showing net population losses. It's pretty bad here in the Southwest part of the state. Some counties, like Tillman County may show losses as much as 10% compared to the 2010 Census. Even Comanche County may end up with a net loss of population. Lawton's current estimated population is down to 93,000 -about 5,000 less than a peak reached a few years ago.

Along the US-69/75 corridor the counties North of Durant are showing net losses. Both Atoka and Pittsburg Counties are losing people. The US-69 corridor doesn't move into growing counties until it reaches Wagoner County -and that county is only growing in its Western-most areas, near Tulsa.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 09:39:43 PM by Bobby5280 »
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1624 on: January 05, 2020, 02:56:06 AM »

Most of Oklahoma's projected net population gains are happening within the Oklahoma City and Tulsa MSA's. The only notable exceptions to that are Love and Bryan Counties along the Red River. The WinStar and Choctaw Casinos likely have something to do with that population growth in counties that are otherwise fairly low in population.

Most of Oklahoma's rural counties are showing net population losses. It's pretty bad here in the Southwest part of the state. Some counties, like Tillman County may show losses as much as 10% compared to the 2010 Census. Even Comanche County may end up with a net loss of population. Lawton's current estimated population is down to 93,000 -about 5,000 less than a peak reached a few years ago.

Along the US-69/75 corridor the counties North of Durant are showing net losses. Both Atoka and Pittsburg Counties are losing people. The US-69 corridor doesn't move into growing counties until it reaches Wagoner County -and that county is only growing in its Western-most areas, near Tulsa.

That's to be expected; unless some sort of public-sector incentives (tax breaks, nominal-cost services, etc) are applied, the corporations and industries that tend to dominate the hiring arena stay away from smaller communities and metro areas.  And there's the "catch-22":  cities like Muskogee, McAlester, etc. can't raise the $$$ needed to offset those tax breaks, so they aren't being offered on a regular basis, while the metro areas that can financially accommodate incoming businesses do so regularly, which in relatively short order results in growth in housing -- more often than not outward as suburban/exurban -- that generally transcends county or metro lines.  So tracts and the associated commercial development are deployed -- but there's little if any connection to the remainder of whatever rural county in which they're located; both economic and commuter direction are directed toward the main metro area that prompted the development in the first place.  The relative cheapness of the previously rural land is a principal driving factor with housing developers, whose respect for jurisdictional lines only is relevant to them in terms of which politicos to schmooze to get the incentives or terms they want.  In this case, the fact that the US 69 corridor is, distance-wise, closer to the development than central Tulsa is neither here nor there; the development is still considered to be within the greater Tulsa sphere of influence.   
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