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Ohio Legislature Mandates Feasibility Study of Future I-73

Started by FutureInterstateCorridors, July 13, 2025, 01:48:48 AM

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GCrites

Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 15, 2025, 07:02:05 AMTraffic opened up for a couple of miles, but by that time I was getting to South Bloomfield. The sidewalk project is well underway, but it did not seem to hinder traffic any more than normal.

It is not a sidewalk project actually. It is just for turn lanes. The sidewalk part got dropped by ODOT citing a lack of projected demand for that travel mode.


carbaugh2

#201
Quote from: Rothman on August 15, 2025, 08:51:45 AM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 15, 2025, 07:02:05 AMBringing the discussion back to Ohio :) , I had the opportunity to drive US 23 from the south side of Columbus down to Circleville yesterday. It was awful. I did not get above 45 mph between 270 and the Pickaway County line due to the traffic lights and slow-moving semi traffic. The other thing I noticed is that the berms are miniscule on left and right. The new rest area looks nice and has additional truck parking, but the signage has not been completed to indicate it is open. I think the location is far enough north of South Bloomfield that it will not be a waste of money once a bypass of South Bloomfield is eventually completed.

Traffic opened up for a couple of miles, but by that time I was getting to South Bloomfield. The sidewalk project is well underway, but it did not seem to hinder traffic any more than normal. The rest of the drive was pretty nondescript, but I did see that any bridges that have been rehabbed recently have been widened for interstate standard berms.

I ended up stopping on the south side of Circleville for a quick bite to eat and stop at Walmart, so I was able to see again just how close to the road the development really is. If this section of 23 were to be improved to a freeway, I think the best option is to put in an overpass at the Court St Connector, cul de sac Sperry Dr, and put in an interchange using the south side of Circle Lane.

What day and what time of day did you take the drive?

My time through there was 3:30 on Thursday, so a little before the worst of rush hour here. The bigger issue, though, is that 23 is operating like something closer to an arterial road rather than a main route for through traffic. The current look and feel south of 270 is how 23 between Worthington and Delaware operated 30 years ago when I had to travel to Olentangy HS (the original; now the district has 4 high schools and trying for a fifth) for high school events. I hope that ODOT and local governments in the area team up on zoning to cut down on direct access points to help with traffic flow until improvements (interchanges and frontage roads) can be implemented.

carbaugh2


The Ghostbuster

$13.75 billion? Would even building the roadway as a toll road be enough to pay for such an expensive roadway? This is why I think the proposed roadway will be built in either a piecemeal process or not at all.

I-55

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 22, 2025, 10:51:50 AM$13.75 billion? Would even building the roadway as a toll road be enough to pay for such an expensive roadway? This is why I think the proposed roadway will be built in either a piecemeal process or not at all.

The article said they calculated for a 275 mile roadway, although between Findlay (I-75) and Lucasville (OH-823) there's only 174 miles, call it 150 miles when taking out the I-270 concurrency. So using their unit cost (from OH-823 which again was expensive due to being a new terrain route with blasting) it'd be only $7.5 billion. Now let's look at what tolls would do.

The Ohio Turnpike made $388 million in toll revenue on 3.033 billion VMT in 2024 per their annual report. This comes out to approximately 35,000 vehicles per mile paying an average 13 cents per mile over 241 miles of road. Assuming that the rural/urban average vehicles per mile is close to 25k for US 23, tolling all 150 miles of new freeway would net $177 million per year, which would require 42 years just to pay off the principal amount at the bs unit price in the article.

In reality, most of the route would be upgraded from US-23, and would likely cost much less (closer to $5 million per mile in rural areas). Tolling would generate between $1.1-1.2 million per mile, and the principal would likely be paid off within a decade.
Purdue Civil Engineering '24
Quote from: I-55 on April 13, 2025, 09:39:41 PMThe correct question is "if ARDOT hasn't signed it, why does Google show it?" and the answer as usual is "because Google Maps signs stuff incorrectly all the time"

vdeane

Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Life in Paradise

Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?
The story says 275 miles for 13.75 billion dollars.  Someone needs to do some corrective math here.  Some of the roadway (such as the Portsmouth bypass, the roadway with I-75, and perhaps the area through Columbus, etc) are already done.  There would be some upgrades, but that's a lot of miles already in place with either interstate or "interstate-type. limited access, exits" roadway already in place.

sprjus4

Something tells me following a largely controlled access US-33 or US-35 with piecemeal upgrades would be easier to purse, and cheaper. But I digress.

vdeane

Quote from: Life in Paradise on August 22, 2025, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?
The story says 275 miles for 13.75 billion dollars.  Someone needs to do some corrective math here.  Some of the roadway (such as the Portsmouth bypass, the roadway with I-75, and perhaps the area through Columbus, etc) are already done.  There would be some upgrades, but that's a lot of miles already in place with either interstate or "interstate-type. limited access, exits" roadway already in place.
Just because something looks like an interstate when you drive on it doesn't mean it meets interstate standards, though.  Just look at I-86/NY 17 in NY... the most expensive part yet to be upgraded isn't even the part with at-grades, it's the freeway between I-84 and the Thruway (and that was before the widening project got bundled in).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

carbaugh2

#209
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?

I would greatly prefer the author to make a reasonable estimate, even in an opinion hit piece. My initial very rough estimate is around $6 billion, and while that is a lot of money, it is still less than half of Mr. Warner's scaremongering. It will take me much more time to type out how I got there than how I actually did the estimating, but here goes. And FIC, "primarily" in the Ohio Revised Code means 50% + 1 of the total route, so it can diverge from US 23 without the legislature getting upset (this comes from my experience working on compliance programs in multiple agencies of Ohio's state government, so I can't really source that one).

Page 3 of ODOT's RFP for the study gives us what will be the likely result for the vast majority of the corridor. I-73 would be concurrent with either I-75 or I-475 from the Michigan state line to Findlay. From Findlay, I-73 would use the SR 15/US 23 corridor to the north side of Columbus, and ODOT already has programmed work in place to make the route from Findlay to Marion be fully limited access (see the links in paragraph 2 of post 188). It's going to be very expensive to connect I-73 from US 23 to I-71, but there's a separate study taking place for that, and we will revisit this. From I-71 to the north side of Columbus, we will likely need a 4th lane on I-71, and ODOT already has a project to build a flyover ramp from 71 South to I-270 East on the north side of town. We need a new flyover ramp from I-270 to US 23 south, so let's include that here, too. We have now made it down to Columbus and around it with maybe $0.5-1 billion in total cost excluding the 71-23 connector (sorry for the tease).

Without going into as much detail on the corridor south from Columbus to the Ohio River, I think that the Interstate 69 project from the Ohio River to Indianapolis is a better and timelier comparison, especially since the heaviest lifting (building the Portsmouth Bypass, which will still need upgrading) is complete in Ohio. This article tells me that the project cost approximately $4 billion to build, with half of that for the final phase that included the I-465 interchange. I think that $2 billion for upgrading US 23 from Columbus to the river is a fair quick estimate to use , and the other $2 billion is what I'll allocate for the 71-23 connector (tease paid in full :-D ).

This gets us to the crossing over the Ohio River. Once again, I-69 is going to help here, because Indiana and Kentucky have provided us a solid estimate for a bridge. Page 15 of their most recent update estimates the cost at just under $1.4 billion, so I'm going to round up to $1.75 billion to also account for an interchange with I-64 in West Virginia.

For those who don't like math, my estimate totals $6.75 billion, which is less than half of Mr. Warner's. It's a LOT of money to be sure, and I don't know if Ohio is willing to stomach that cost, especially when the state does have rough roads and decrepit bridges (the D+ infrastructure grade doesn't lie, but freeze/thaw cycles do damage that can't be fully mitigated). Regardless, I came up with that figure with 5-10 minutes of Google searches, which is likely the same amount of time Mr. Warner used to scale the cost of the Portsmouth Bypass into today's dollars, create a per mile cost, and then add to his submission. He and The Columbus Dispatch should do a lot better.

sprjus4

Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 23, 2025, 07:53:59 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?

I would greatly prefer the author to make a reasonable estimate, even in an opinion hit piece. My initial very rough estimate is around $6 billion, and while that is a lot of money, it is still less than half of Mr. Warner's scaremongering. It will take me much more time to type out how I got there than how I actually did the estimating, but here goes. And FIC, "primarily" in the Ohio Revised Code means 50% + 1 of the total route, so it can diverge from US 23 without the legislature getting upset (this comes from my experience working on compliance programs in multiple agencies of Ohio's state government, so I can't really source that one).

Page 3 of ODOT's RFP for the study gives us what will be the likely result for the vast majority of the corridor. I-73 would be concurrent with either I-75 or I-475 from the Michigan state line to Findlay. From Findlay, I-73 would use the SR 15/US 23 corridor to the north side of Columbus, and ODOT already has programmed work in place to make the route from Findlay to Marion be fully limited access (see the links in paragraph 2 of post 188). It's going to be very expensive to connect I-73 from US 23 to I-71, but there's a separate study taking place for that, and we will revisit this. From I-71 to the north side of Columbus, we will likely need a 4th lane on I-71, and ODOT already has a project to build a flyover ramp from 71 South to I-270 East on the north side of town. We need a new flyover ramp from I-270 to US 23 south, so let's include that here, too. We have now made it down to Columbus and around it with maybe $0.5-1 billion in total cost excluding the 71-23 connector (sorry for the tease).

Without going into as much detail on the corridor south from Columbus to the Ohio River, I think that the Interstate 69 project from the Ohio River to Indianapolis is a better and timelier comparison, especially since the heaviest lifting (building the Portsmouth Bypass, which will still need upgrading) is complete in Ohio. This article tells me that the project cost approximately $4 billion to build, with half of that for the final phase that included the I-465 interchange. I think that $2 billion for upgrading US 23 from Columbus to the river is a fair quick estimate to use , and the other $2 billion is what I'll allocate for the 71-23 connector (tease paid in full :-D ).

This gets us to the crossing over the Ohio River. Once again, I-69 is going to help here, because Indiana and Kentucky have provided us a solid estimate for a bridge. Page 15 of their most recent update estimates the cost at just under $1.4 billion, so I'm going to round up to $1.75 billion to also account for an interchange with I-64 in West Virginia.

For those who don't like math, my estimate totals $6.75 billion, which is less than half of Mr. Warner's. It's a LOT of money to be sure, and I don't know if Ohio is willing to stomach that cost, especially when the state does have rough roads and decrepit bridges (the D+ infrastructure grade doesn't lie, but freeze/thaw cycles do damage that can't be fully mitigated). Regardless, I came up with that figure with 5-10 minutes of Google searches, which is likely the same amount of time Mr. Warner used to scale the cost of the Portsmouth Bypass into today's dollars, create a per mile cost, and then add to his submission. He and The Columbus Dispatch should do a lot better.
Add inflation and the fact this won't be built for another 20+ years (particularly south of Columbus), if at all. All of a sudden $13.75 billion doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Long distance traffic that I-73 is intending to serve is not using the US-23 corridor, nor would they with an upgraded route until West Virginia constructs their portion (which will never happen).

thenetwork

For now, an I-73 plan only needs to exist as far north as the I-75/US-68/SR-15 interchange, as there existing freeways a future I-73 would multiplex on north of Findlay in Ohio.  Why the study must detail it's future track along I-75 and I-475 is a moot point until Michigan agrees on a potential I-73 routing in the Wolverine state.

I-73's northern terminus could naturally end at I-75.  I really don't see why it must be forced to continue further north, hell or high water, at this time.

vdeane

It's also worth noting that estimates can sometimes include anticipated inflation between now and when construction would be expected to happen.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

mgk920

I'm not laying awake at night in eager anticipation of this.

Mike

Rothman

Not sure why carbaugh's estimate is any better than the one in the article.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

carbaugh2

Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2025, 06:41:40 PMNot sure why carbaugh's estimate is any better than the one in the article.

I think my 10 minutes of work is high, maybe even double what the study will calculate. I had forgotten about ODOT's recent feasibility study on a new 4-lane bridge and interchange at Ravenswood, which came in at a cost of $290 million (source). The 71-23 connector is an unanswerable variable until that study comes out at the end of September. My point was that you don't create an estimate for an entire corridor based on a per mile cost of new highway going through the most difficult terrain of the entire corridor unless you want to scare people away from considering something to be viable. Surely, you can appreciate that as a transportation engineer.

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2025, 09:35:30 PMSomething tells me following a largely controlled access US-33 or US-35 with piecemeal upgrades would be easier to purse, and cheaper. But I digress.
From a practical standpoint, US 33 is left out of this study because it doesn't have direct access to the developments around Rickenbacker Airport, which includes the Anduril megasite under development. While I agree that US 35 warrants serious consideration and would be much cheaper, I think that the uranium enrichment facility in Piketon is situated close to US 23, and Ohio legislators have been trying to prop it up since its startup.

With regards to looking at how this connects to the overall corridor, I don't think that the General Assembly is looking at how this would fit with any work in the bordering states.









 

Rothman

Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 24, 2025, 07:00:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2025, 06:41:40 PMNot sure why carbaugh's estimate is any better than the one in the article.

I think my 10 minutes of work is high,

I'm sure 10 minutes of work was enough to come up with an accurate estimate...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

carbaugh2

Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2025, 03:15:55 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 24, 2025, 07:00:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2025, 06:41:40 PMNot sure why carbaugh's estimate is any better than the one in the article.

I think my 10 minutes of work is high,

I'm sure 10 minutes of work was enough to come up with an accurate estimate...

If I had sufficient knowledge of the cost of various types of projects in Ohio, then I would agree with you. I posted my quick work based on I-69 with the hope that others would collaborate and sharpen it with their knowledge and observations (an x-mile long segment needs proper berms, this ramp project was bid for $x million, etc.) so I could learn and apply it in the future. It's why I said I didn't spend much time on the estimate.

Outside of the 71-23 connector, I would like to get a ballpark idea for what it will take financially to upgrade the corridor to fully limited access, even if it weren't to include an interstate designation. I do know that it isn't $13.75 billion, and I am fairly confident that it isn't $6.5 billion, either. I have friends, family, and coworkers that struggle with the traffic and subsequent safety issues on a daily basis from Marion to Circleville. My read on the legislature is there appears to be the will to bring the project to fruition, regardless of what is happening in any of the other states that are part of the I-73 corridor. I'm also hoping to learn through the process of getting there. I'd appreciate the help in sharpening my knowledge and skills, but if you aren't willing, then that's fine too. This thread will start falling down the list, at least until the results of the 71-23 connector study is submitted to the General Assembly and made public at the end of September.  ;-)

Rothman

Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 24, 2025, 06:13:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2025, 03:15:55 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 24, 2025, 07:00:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2025, 06:41:40 PMNot sure why carbaugh's estimate is any better than the one in the article.

I think my 10 minutes of work is high,

I'm sure 10 minutes of work was enough to come up with an accurate estimate...

If I had sufficient knowledge of the cost of various types of projects in Ohio, then I would agree with you. I posted my quick work based on I-69 with the hope that others would collaborate and sharpen it with their knowledge and observations (an x-mile long segment needs proper berms, this ramp project was bid for $x million, etc.) so I could learn and apply it in the future. It's why I said I didn't spend much time on the estimate.

Outside of the 71-23 connector, I would like to get a ballpark idea for what it will take financially to upgrade the corridor to fully limited access, even if it weren't to include an interstate designation. I do know that it isn't $13.75 billion, and I am fairly confident that it isn't $6.5 billion, either. I have friends, family, and coworkers that struggle with the traffic and subsequent safety issues on a daily basis from Marion to Circleville. My read on the legislature is there appears to be the will to bring the project to fruition, regardless of what is happening in any of the other states that are part of the I-73 corridor. I'm also hoping to learn through the process of getting there. I'd appreciate the help in sharpening my knowledge and skills, but if you aren't willing, then that's fine too. This thread will start falling down the list, at least until the results of the 71-23 connector study is submitted to the General Assembly and made public at the end of September.  ;-)


Now I'm not sure how you thought your estimate was better than the one provided.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Life in Paradise

Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 09:41:10 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on August 22, 2025, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?
The story says 275 miles for 13.75 billion dollars.  Someone needs to do some corrective math here.  Some of the roadway (such as the Portsmouth bypass, the roadway with I-75, and perhaps the area through Columbus, etc) are already done.  There would be some upgrades, but that's a lot of miles already in place with either interstate or "interstate-type. limited access, exits" roadway already in place.
Just because something looks like an interstate when you drive on it doesn't mean it meets interstate standards, though.  Just look at I-86/NY 17 in NY... the most expensive part yet to be upgraded isn't even the part with at-grades, it's the freeway between I-84 and the Thruway (and that was before the widening project got bundled in).
I'm going by the Rand McNally map showing limited access.   I-86/NY 17 does show a gap of several miles of just four lane (non-interstate) miles next to the PA border.  If a road is already limited access with exits, there should be less upgrading than a four lane with driveways and at grade intersections.  That's why I made my observation.

roadman65

Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 09:41:10 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on August 22, 2025, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2025, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: carbaugh2 on August 22, 2025, 06:12:01 AMNothing like taking the most expensive portion of the entire route to create a cost estimate for the entire route.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2025/08/18/i-73-columbus-and-toledo-interstate-cost/85681258007/
Would you rather they use the least expensive portion?
The story says 275 miles for 13.75 billion dollars.  Someone needs to do some corrective math here.  Some of the roadway (such as the Portsmouth bypass, the roadway with I-75, and perhaps the area through Columbus, etc) are already done.  There would be some upgrades, but that's a lot of miles already in place with either interstate or "interstate-type. limited access, exits" roadway already in place.
Just because something looks like an interstate when you drive on it doesn't mean it meets interstate standards, though.  Just look at I-86/NY 17 in NY... the most expensive part yet to be upgraded isn't even the part with at-grades, it's the freeway between I-84 and the Thruway (and that was before the widening project got bundled in).

The overpasses must be 16'5" to be interstate. Many  there don't meet that.  The DDI in Woodbury raised NY 17/32 as part of that conversion as that was only one of many overpasses that need replacing.  NYSDOT decided to make use of the interchange replacement to take care of that as well and made it known in the project summary during construction on the state website.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

PColumbus73

I think a new terrain alignment would be better between Waverly and Richmond Dale versus overlaying US 23 through Massieville.

And regarding the connections with OH 823, I think it's possible to extend OH 823 over and curve around rejoin US 23 to the north, like how the WV Turnpike curves around US 60 outside Charleston.