I think US/State Highways should be signed through national parks.

[Roadgeekteen]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.

Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?

Entrance fees require someone there to collect them to be a deterrent. That can be easier said than done.

I cut through Lake Mead NRA during a clinch trip, and stopped at the payment booth at the end of NV 147 to find nobody there. I flagged down a ranger to ask how to pay, and he said the A/C had been out in the booth all summer, so they weren't collecting fees at that entrance. So that wouldn't have been much of a deterrent if I had been wanting to use the park to bypass I-11 or something.

When I was at Yellowstone, in the middle of the night, nobody was there collecting fees. Probably the ammount of lost revenue at the time would be so low that it wasn't worth paying someone to be there.

[Quillz]

This is really just a specific case of the more general idea that route number signage should be purely for navigational purposes, and not for indicating maintenance responsibility. But with National Parks, Monuments, etc., the elegant solution would be to have nice brown signs styled like either US or state highway shields, so that you'd still know you're on the right road, but also know you're in the park.

Could not agree more. This is why route shields exist. I have said before, and I will die on this roundabout, that the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road. If that needs to be known for whatever reason, it's something that can be found out later.

The one that always comes to mind for me is CA-190, specifically the Sherman Pass Highway. It is almost completely unknown to the typical motorist, and yet it's one of the few crossings of the southern Sierra. Even I tend to forget how to navigate it, as there is zero signage. All I needed are some generic black-on-white "190" shields. The way it is, you have to remember to take Western Divide Highway, turn here, turn there... Make sure you make the right turn in Kennedy Meadows. Without knowing ahead of time, it's hard to navigate here.

[Scott5114]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

[pderocco]

This is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.

Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.

I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.

I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.

What's the other one?

Um, I forget.

[pderocco]

Most people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite.  My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017. 

I've noticed that in my own life. I grew up in Massachusetts, and there are so many places around there that I never went to, like Nantucket. That's because I could always do it some other time, so there was no rush. If you're going far from home, though, you plan to see as many sights as possible while you're there.

[Max Rockatansky]

Most people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite.  My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017. 

I've noticed that in my own life. I grew up in Massachusetts, and there are so many places around there that I never went to, like Nantucket. That's because I could always do it some other time, so there was no rush. If you're going far from home, though, you plan to see as many sights as possible while you're there.

Same with my parents in regards to Mackinaw Island or the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.  We went lots of famous places around the country when I was a kid but not those of our own state. 

[Roadgeekteen]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

[mgk920]

The first example that came to my mind is that I-94 is fully marked through Theodore Roosevelt N.P. in North Dakota.  Also, does any numbered highway enter the boundaries of Cuyahoga Valley N.P. in Ohio?

Mike

[GaryV]

does any numbered highway enter the boundaries of Cuyahoga Valley N.P. in Ohio?

Um, yeah. I-80 and I-271 for example.

[Max Rockatansky]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means.  Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers. 

[Roadgeekteen]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means.  Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers. 

But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.

[Max Rockatansky]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means.  Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers. 

But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.

Why would NDOT need an excuse for a segment of highway they don't maintain?

[Quillz]

Most people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite.  My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017. 

I've noticed that in my own life. I grew up in Massachusetts, and there are so many places around there that I never went to, like Nantucket. That's because I could always do it some other time, so there was no rush. If you're going far from home, though, you plan to see as many sights as possible while you're there.

When I visit Alaska, I love looking at the northern lights. When I talk to people who live in Alaska, they rarely go outside to look at it, because it's just a normal thing and not that big a deal anymore. I guess living near a national park would be similar, if Yosemite is only an hour drive away for you, you probably won't think much of it.

Like for me, I go to the beach a lot. I don't consider it a big deal. But I always forget a lot of people live in the Midwest and some have never seen the ocean or a beach in their entire life.

[Quillz]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

I've seen that in a few places, but it's for rural local roads, usually to indicate that even if it's some kind of thru road (they usually aren't), it's not really intended for main traffic. And usually the signs will just say "NO STATE MAINTENANCE" or w/e.

I'd say combining that with some kind of special shield that indicates non-state control (and perhaps even combined with the postmile system mentioned above) could be a good way to do things. Then if/when issues arise, some state organization can claim no responsibility since it's not their segment.

But that's why I feel it's getting overly technical at that point. Just sign the road for navigation first and foremost. The simpler the better.

[Quillz]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means.  Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers. 

But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.

Why would NDOT need an excuse for a segment of highway they don't maintain?

Probably less "excuse" and more "correct answer that can also be demonstrated on the road." And it makes sense, because when people complain about stuff, they always will blame whoever makes the product. Like in software design, anytime something goes wrong with a third-party iPhone app, Apple gets blamed, even though they don't make the app. That's just how people are. So NDOT will get blamed for any road issues, even the ones they don't have any authority to maintain.

[Max Rockatansky]

...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...

The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.

Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.

Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means.  Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers. 

But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.

Why would NDOT need an excuse for a segment of highway they don't maintain?

Probably less "excuse" and more "correct answer that can also be demonstrated on the road." And it makes sense, because when people complain about stuff, they always will blame whoever makes the product. Like in software design, anytime something goes wrong with a third-party iPhone app, Apple gets blamed, even though they don't make the app. That's just how people are. So NDOT will get blamed for any road issues, even the ones they don't have any authority to maintain.

How would any of this change the NDOT response to a compliant?  The answer is going to be "not our road" either way.

[Quillz]

So they can cite postmiles that physically exist to demonstrate where maintenance ends. As opposed to just saying "we don't maintain this part," I don't know. How many complaints they'd get regarding that section to begin with, I don't know.

[Max Rockatansky]

So they can cite postmiles that physically exist to demonstrate where maintenance ends. As opposed to just saying "we don't maintain this part," I don't know. How many complaints they'd get regarding that section to begin with, I don't know.

Postmile CC 14.25 is literally at the pavement transition from the end of NV 147 at the National Recreation Area.  "Sorry, we don't maintain Lake Mead Boulevard past Postmile 14.25 which is the start of NPS jurisdiction."

[GaryV]

In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway

I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.

[Roadgeekteen]

In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway

I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.

I found that GPS sometimes works when there is no cell signal, it is hit or miss.

[Scott5114]

There's also the problem of "is there no postmile here because the city maintains it, or because the postmile got stolen"?

[Quillz]

In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway

I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.

Yeah, it's pretty hit-or-miss. One of the newer features Apple added to their iPhone is letting you download maps for offline use (took them long enough) Last year's iOS 18 specifically had a strong focus on hiking within national parks. There is also the NPS app that lets you download everything you'd need map wise ahead of time.

Offhand, I remember having good coverage all through Crater Lake. Lava Beds is also pretty good. Lassen was okay near the southern entrance (the main area), but nothing near the northern entrance.

[Roadgeekteen]

In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway

I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.

Yeah, it's pretty hit-or-miss. One of the newer features Apple added to their iPhone is letting you download maps for offline use (took them long enough) Last year's iOS 18 specifically had a strong focus on hiking within national parks. There is also the NPS app that lets you download everything you'd need map wise ahead of time.

Offhand, I remember having good coverage all through Crater Lake. Lava Beds is also pretty good. Lassen was okay near the southern entrance (the main area), but nothing near the northern entrance.

You have been able to download google maps maps for years.

[Quillz]

In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway

I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.

Yeah, it's pretty hit-or-miss. One of the newer features Apple added to their iPhone is letting you download maps for offline use (took them long enough) Last year's iOS 18 specifically had a strong focus on hiking within national parks. There is also the NPS app that lets you download everything you'd need map wise ahead of time.

Offhand, I remember having good coverage all through Crater Lake. Lava Beds is also pretty good. Lassen was okay near the southern entrance (the main area), but nothing near the northern entrance.

You have been able to download google maps maps for years.

Yes, but not Apple Maps. I don't use Google Maps as much.

[pderocco]

In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway

I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.

I found that GPS sometimes works when there is no cell signal, it is hit or miss.

GPS works anywhere in the world unless you're in a deep canyon, especially if there's a lot of tree cover. Phones work wherever there are cell sites, although if you're in a deep canyon, that would require micro sites along the road, which aren't common in such places.