Lane Closure "ettiquite"

[kphoger]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

[Rothman]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

*shrug*

To me, it's not about striping or signage.  All merges should be zipper merges.

[kalvado]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

*shrug*

To me, it's not about striping or signage.  All merges should be zipper merges.

Oh, i guess this is just the way logic works in NYSDOT...

[kphoger]

What's the argument against all lane closures being zipper merges?

[kalvado]

What's the argument against all lane closures being zipper merges?

Basically merging some distance away from the lane drop, especially when things are still in free-flow, reduces last second moves and makes entry into restricted part smoother. question is where that "some distance" is. I would argue 30-60 seconds (10-20 cars away, 200-400 feet) in congested flow, and probably same 30-60 seconds (0.5-1 mile) in free flow. In later case the difference in generally minimal, as long as merge is done in advance.
What we see is, maybe, the transfer of "1 mile" criteria from free flow to congested flow.
 

[1995hoo]

....

In other news, we've now made it this far into the thread without anyone griping about the misspelled topic.  Is this a new record for the forum?

I certainly noticed it, but I opted not to point it out because a certain other user seems to think that anyone who notices such things is a Nazi (and has called me such twice).

[TheHighwayMan3561]

A couple years ago I was headed west on I-94 past St. Cloud, MN on the Friday of Labor Day weekend. The left lane was closing and traffic in the right lane was heavy stop-and-go, but the left lane was virtually empty. I continued in the left lane for a time when I came across a van driving the speed of traffic in the left lane. He would move when the right lane moved, then come back to a complete stop whenever the right lane stopped. He was neither trying to merge, nor actively driving up to the lane closure point. This was at least 1.5 miles from the lane closure point and I was pretty much stuck where I was. It was one of the most road-ragey moments I have ever been.

[kphoger]

What's the argument against all lane closures being zipper merges?

Basically merging some distance away from the lane drop, especially when things are still in free-flow, reduces last second moves and makes entry into restricted part smoother.

I don't see an inherent problem with last-second merges—especially in the context of a zipper merge, where literally every properly executed "move" is last-second.

Also, I find it "smoother" when everyone knows exactly where they're supposed to "enter" (i.e., "take turns").  I don't see much difference between that single spot being at the lane closure itself or a quarter-mile upstream—except that prolonging the lane restriction seems counterproductive (or at least not beneficial) to throughput.

question is where that "some distance" is. I would argue 30-60 seconds (10-20 cars away, 200-400 feet) in congested flow, and probably same 30-60 seconds (0.5-1 mile) in free flow.

And I would argue for 0-3 cars away.

[Scott5114]

Why?  At most, whatever laws you find would simply apply to all drivers instead of half of them.

Assuming you intended this as a reply to me (and didn't just quote me as a connector post in the conversation you meant to reply to), you'll note that my post doesn't mention laws at all. Laws aren't the problem here, psychology is.

Ed is driving. Ed is in His Lane. Because that is the lane he is in, Ed gets a psychological bee in his bonnet that that lane belongs to him. His Lane is continuing through the merge, and he was in it first, so that makes him better than everyone in the other lane. He is more important than the people in the other lane because he was here first. If someone is in the other lane, they are less important than Ed, because they didn't have the good sense to get in the other lane when Ed did. The people in the other lane rankle Ed because they're going out of turn by passing Ed and all of the other people in the good lane. They are cheaters and frauds. Because the people in the other lane are less important and stupider than Ed, and cheaters and frauds too, Ed is going to not let them into his lane, which belongs to him, because he thinks they need to learn a lesson about being proactive about getting in the good lane and therefore being a good person like Ed is.

Nothing Ed thinks is grounded in reality or traffic laws. It's just BS that Ed's subconscious is feeding him. He may not even realize on a conscious level he believes this crap, he's just running on autopilot. But if you make it so that he can not think he is a good person for being in the good lane, because neither lane is the good lane, that scrambles Ed's programming. Now he's forced to contend with the fact that he is just as important as the guy next to him, and then actually zipper merging.

Ed is my parents.

[kalvado]

What's the argument against all lane closures being zipper merges?

Basically merging some distance away from the lane drop, especially when things are still in free-flow, reduces last second moves and makes entry into restricted part smoother.

I don't see an inherent problem with last-second merges—especially in the context of a zipper merge, where literally every properly executed "move" is last-second.

Also, I find it "smoother" when everyone knows exactly where they're supposed to "enter" (i.e., "take turns").  I don't see much difference between that single spot being at the lane closure itself or a quarter-mile upstream—except that prolonging the lane restriction seems counterproductive (or at least not beneficial) to throughput.

question is where that "some distance" is. I would argue 30-60 seconds (10-20 cars away, 200-400 feet) in congested flow, and probably same 30-60 seconds (0.5-1 mile) in free flow.

And I would argue for 0-3 cars away.

Well, there may be a controlled study somewhere, but for me it's fairly obvious that having to keep track of multiple things at the same time would slow things down and increase accident rate.
Quarter mile is roughly consistent with typical exit ramps length, and needed among other things to account for different vehicle length and acceleration rates.

[Rothman]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

*shrug*

To me, it's not about striping or signage.  All merges should be zipper merges.

Oh, i guess this is just the way logic works in NYSDOT...

I don't speak for NYSDOT, silly man.

[kalvado]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

*shrug*

To me, it's not about striping or signage.  All merges should be zipper merges.

Oh, i guess this is just the way logic works in NYSDOT...

I don't speak for NYSDOT, silly man.

You can speak as not a NYSDOT person... But you can never overcome NYSDOT spirit!

[Rothman]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

*shrug*

To me, it's not about striping or signage.  All merges should be zipper merges.

Oh, i guess this is just the way logic works in NYSDOT...

I don't speak for NYSDOT, silly man.

You can speak as not a NYSDOT person... But you can never overcome NYSDOT spirit!

<.<

>.>

I'd better keep quiet on that what I think about that...

(personal opinion emphasized)

[kalvado]

All merge striping encourages zipper merges...

any example in NYS?

Is this a misunderstanding?

TRUE — "All merge" striping encourages zipper merges.

FALSE — All "merge striping" encourages zipper merges.

*shrug*

To me, it's not about striping or signage.  All merges should be zipper merges.

Oh, i guess this is just the way logic works in NYSDOT...

I don't speak for NYSDOT, silly man.

You can speak as not a NYSDOT person... But you can never overcome NYSDOT spirit!

<.<

>.>

I'd better keep quiet on that what I think about that...

(personal opinion emphasized)

Despite that thought being a personal opinion, it is still driven by the inner shadow of DOT...

[tmthyvs]

This, this, a hundred times this.  An early merge only serves to make the constricted section longer.  A sign a mile in advance saying "merge now" or a bunch of road cones 20 feet from the equipment:  no difference either way.

And a key bit of making the constricted section longer is that it can have spillover effects. It's less common on a freeway, but it's entirely possible to end up backing up past a previous access point (intersection or exit) and cause congestion where there wouldn't otherwise be congestion, simply because the early merges move the congestion back that far. In that case, drivers who aren't even going through the lane merge end up being unnecessarily delayed because of the early merges.

[webny99]

The reason zipper merge doesn't work is because of drivers who see the road as a first-come-first-served queue, like at a grocery store. It isn't.

Except when everyone zippers. Then it is.

[kalvado]

The reason zipper merge doesn't work is because of drivers who see the road as a first-come-first-served queue, like at a grocery store. It isn't.

Except when everyone zippers. Then it is.

There are quite a few cases where public perception is a big barrier.
When nobody zippers - until someday everyone zippers
When everyone is driving - until everyone is on a public transportation
When everyone litters - until it's all clean and you don't dare to...
Broken window theory in general...

Sometimes I really wonder how such perception barriers can be broken. Transition must be tough.
Good thing in case of zipper there is a way for DOTs to influence preference in a soft but efficient manner.

[Scott5114]

The reason zipper merge doesn't work is because of drivers who see the road as a first-come-first-served queue, like at a grocery store. It isn't.

Except when everyone zippers. Then it is.

I'm in line before you to use I-15, then. I'm not even in my car yet, but you better wait for me, because I was first. Also, once I'm on it, you can't pass me at all, ever, because that would be cutting the line.

[kphoger]

Assuming you intended this as a reply to me (and didn't just quote me as a connector post in the conversation you meant to reply to), you'll note that my post doesn't mention laws at all. Laws aren't the problem here, psychology is.

That's exactly what I was doing.  You and I are on the same page, I think.  I was actually responding to |kalvado|, who had suggested reading traffic laws.  That's my jam, so I found it necessary to point out that traffic laws had nothing to do with it.

Well, there may be a controlled study somewhere,

I've never seen anyone link to an actual study.  I'm guessing it doesn't exist.

but for me it's fairly obvious that having to keep track of multiple things at the same time would slow things down and increase accident rate.

Aren't there the same number of things to keep track of, no matter if the lane merge happens at the closure itself or a quarter-mile upstream?  How does moving the location change the number of things to keep track of?

Sometimes I really wonder how such perception barriers can be broken.

But what we're suggesting is that the best course of action would be to eliminate the perception of there being one specific terminating lane at all, through striping and/or signage.  Because then it doesn't matter what people think:  nobody is in the "correct lane" at the proper time, and nobody is a queue jumper.

In the illustration below, both lanes are treated equally.  It is neither the right nor left lane that is the "ending" or the "continuing" lane.  Therefore, nobody can possibly be a queue jumper.

[Rothman]

Assuming you intended this as a reply to me (and didn't just quote me as a connector post in the conversation you meant to reply to), you'll note that my post doesn't mention laws at all. Laws aren't the problem here, psychology is.

That's exactly what I was doing.  You and I are on the same page, I think.  I was actually responding to |kalvado|, who had suggested reading traffic laws.  That's my jam, so I found it necessary to point out that traffic laws had nothing to do with it.

Well, there may be a controlled study somewhere,

I've never seen anyone link to an actual study.  I'm guessing it doesn't exist.

but for me it's fairly obvious that having to keep track of multiple things at the same time would slow things down and increase accident rate.

Aren't there the same number of things to keep track of, no matter if the lane merge happens at the closure itself or a quarter-mile upstream?  How does moving the location change the number of things to keep track of?

Sometimes I really wonder how such perception barriers can be broken.

But what we're suggesting is that the best course of action would be to eliminate the perception of there being one specific terminating lane at all, through striping and/or signage.  Because then it doesn't matter what people think:  nobody is in the "correct lane" at the proper time, and nobody is a queue jumper.

In the illustration below, both lanes are treated equally.  It is neither the right nor left lane that is the "ending" or the "continuing" lane.  Therefore, nobody can possibly be a queue jumper.

Meh, I don't like that.  Zippers are still encouraged when one lane merges into the other, rather than "two cars enter, one car leaves."

[webny99]

Good thing in case of zipper there is a way for DOTs to influence preference in a soft but efficient manner.

I can never quite be sure how serious you intend to be but this is actually fairly accurate. It's pretty much exactly what NYSDOT has done with the I-490 bridge replacements in Perinton and it's gone about as well as could possibly be expected.

[kalvado]

Good thing in case of zipper there is a way for DOTs to influence preference in a soft but efficient manner.

I can never quite be sure how serious you intend to be but this is actually fairly accurate. It's pretty much exactly what NYSDOT has done with the I-490 bridge replacements in Perinton and it's gone about as well as could possibly be expected.

In this case I was actually dead serious, and referred to signage and lane markings DOT can use as a tool to switch everyone to a new normal. Drivers being on the same page is the requirements for minimizing conflicts and stress...

[SSOWorld]

Seeing that lane setup? I remember now that some states always closes the left lane regardless of which lane is the continuing lane.  Traffic crossing to the other side to make a 2-way "head-to-head"? close left lane, shift the traffic to left, then cross the median. construction needs right lane blocked? Close the left lane, then shift the traffic back.

[kphoger]

Seeing that lane setup? I remember now that some states always closes the left lane regardless of which lane is the continuing lane.  Traffic crossing to the other side to make a 2-way "head-to-head"? close left lane, shift the traffic to left, then cross the median. construction needs right lane blocked? Close the left lane, then shift the traffic back.

That's an intriguing alternative!  What states do that?

[GaryV]

Seeing that lane setup? I remember now that some states always closes the left lane regardless of which lane is the continuing lane.  Traffic crossing to the other side to make a 2-way "head-to-head"? close left lane, shift the traffic to left, then cross the median. construction needs right lane blocked? Close the left lane, then shift the traffic back.

That's an intriguing alternative!  What states do that?

Michigan tends to do that (maybe not always) when it is one lane of two that are closing outside urban areas. Multi-lane freeways it happens either way.