Random Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years/Year End Thoughts (2025)

[kphoger]

This is also supported by archaeology
Dig sites across first world Palestine have revealed
that the average family dwelling had a foyer on it,
where animals were kept,
and then a back living area behind that,
with a seperate room attached to the living area for entertaining guests
This was the kataluma

So, the Luke 2 text really says, that Jesus was born in the foyer, the entry way
Because there was no room for him in the family guest room
In other words, Jesus was born in the "garage" because Joseph's family did not have room for them in the house

Also, that's just a wrong way of looking at the layout of the house.

There was no separation between the "foyer" where the animals were kept (only at night) and the "living area" behind it.  The only real separation was that the living area was built higher up than the other.

He got it right in calling the guest quarters "a separate room attached".  In many cases, the entrance to it wasn't even from the inside of the house, but had its own separate entrance outside.  Either way, it was the guest room that was away from the rest of the house, not the "foyer".

So, saying that he was born in an out-of-the-way place because there wasn't a place for them in the main area of the house is completely wrong.  It's backwards.  He was born in the main area of the house because there wasn't a place for them in the out-of-the-way place.  Probably surrounded by a gaggle of ladies excitedly helping with the delivery.

And then the rest of his mumbo-jumbo fust falls apart from there.

[Beltway]

It is also my belief that the "star" wasn't the wondrously bright shiny thing that could be seen night and day, as commonly portrayed. When the wisemen got to Jerusalem and asked where the king was, Herod and his retinue didn't know what they were talking about. They hadn't seen the "star". It was most likely some planetary conjunction that only those from the east interpreted astrologically. Or perhaps some nova, a new star but not a supernova, that those who studied the skies recognized as not always having been there.

If a nova or supernova had appeared during the period traditionally associated with the Nativity, ancient astronomers absolutely would have recorded it. They were meticulous observers, and they documented unusual celestial events with great care.

Chinese, Babylonian, Greek, and Roman astronomers all kept detailed sky records. They noted comets, eclipses, conjunctions, and especially novae or "guest stars," which were considered major omens. We have continuous astronomical logs from these cultures covering that era, and none of them report a bright new star, and nothing that would match the kind of sudden, singular, unmistakable object described in later narratives.

That absence matters. A nova bright enough to be seen for weeks or months would have been impossible to miss and would appear in multiple independent records. Since no such entries exist, the historical sky doesn't show anything that could be interpreted as a brilliant, one‑off celestial beacon.

I saw the planetary conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn a few years ago.

To the naked eye they almost looked like a single star with a faint "shoulder," and through binoculars you could see both planets in the same field of view.

At closest approach, they were only about 6 arcminutes apart -- roughly one‑fifth the diameter of the full Moon. That's why binoculars could show both planets in the same field of view, along with some of Jupiter's moons.

But they were not bright enough to look like the Star of Bethlehem

We can compute every past conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, and all other naked‑eye planets with extraordinary precision going back thousands of years because orbital mechanics is deterministic and the math is exact. Jupiter–Saturn conjunctions occur roughly every twenty years, and none of them, ancient or modern, ever produce anything brighter than about magnitude –2.2 combined, which is interesting but nowhere near "astonishing."

Even the more dramatic Venus–Jupiter pairings, where both planets can be extremely bright, never merge into a single blazing object; they remain two distinct points of light. Modern ephemerides allow us to model every relevant event in antiquity, and none of them produce a light source that matches the dramatic descriptions found in ancient texts.

Brightness also doesn't add linearly, so two bright planets close together don't become a super‑star. They remain two bright dots. Because these events can be calculated with such accuracy, we can say confidently that no planetary alignment of that era would have appeared as a brilliant, singular celestial beacon.

[Rothman]

This is also supported by archaeology
Dig sites across first world Palestine have revealed
that the average family dwelling had a foyer on it,
where animals were kept,
and then a back living area behind that,
with a seperate room attached to the living area for entertaining guests
This was the kataluma

So, the Luke 2 text really says, that Jesus was born in the foyer, the entry way
Because there was no room for him in the family guest room
In other words, Jesus was born in the "garage" because Joseph's family did not have room for them in the house

Also, that's just a wrong way of looking at the layout of the house.

There was no separation between the "foyer" where the animals were kept (only at night) and the "living area" behind it.  The only real separation was that the living area was built higher up than the other.

He got it right in calling the guest quarters "a separate room attached".  In many cases, the entrance to it wasn't even from the inside of the house, but had its own separate entrance outside.  Either way, it was the guest room that was away from the rest of the house, not the "foyer".

So, saying that he was born in an out-of-the-way place because there wasn't a place for them in the main area of the house is completely wrong.  It's backwards.  He was born in the main area of the house because there wasn't a place for them in the out-of-the-way place.  Probably surrounded by a gaggle of ladies excitedly helping with the delivery.

And then the rest of his mumbo-jumbo fust falls apart from there.

I dom't really care what he did or didn't get right by whatever the current state of the art is, which I certainly don't have the interest to track down.  Just thought the timing of your post just fell into the similar posts or shares I've seen over just the past few months.

[Beltway]

Baloney. 

Is a reserved word on the internet.

[kphoger]

It is also my belief that the "star" wasn't the wondrously bright shiny thing that could be seen night and day, as commonly portrayed. When the wisemen got to Jerusalem and asked where the king was, Herod and his retinue didn't know what they were talking about. They hadn't seen the "star". It was most likely some planetary conjunction that only those from the east interpreted astrologically. Or perhaps some nova, a new star but not a supernova, that those who studied the skies recognized as not always having been there.

I saw the planetary conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn a few years ago ... But they were not bright enough to look like the Star of Bethlehem

Huh?  How do you know how bright the Star of Bethlehem was?  Nothing in the biblical text says anything about its being exceptionally bright.

That's a rabbit trail I've gone down in the past.  Let's not go there on the forum. 

Well, so much for that...

For what it's worth, it's possible to read Revelation ch. 12 as describing exactly when Jesus was born, by treating the symbols as astronomical occurrences:

a woman clothed with the sun = the constellation Virgo (the virgin), with the ecliptic passing through

with the moon under her feet = the Moon just below Virgo on the ecliptic

and a crown of twelve stars on her head = 9 stars of Leo + Mercury + Venus + Jupiter

an enormous red dragon = the constellation Scorpius, including Antares ('rival of Mars') on the ecliptic, just below Libra ('claws of the scorpion' in Babylonian astrology)

And then you can combine that with Matthew ch. 2:

king = Jupiter ('king of the Gods' in Roman mythology) on the ecliptic

king = Regulus (Arabic 'heart of the lion' / Babylonian 'king' / Persian chief of the 4 'royal stars') appearing to merge with Jupiter

of the Jews = the constellation Leo (a lion being the symbol of the tribe of Judah), within which Jupiter and Regulus appeared to merge

One intriguing convergence of all those astronomical occurrences was on 1 Tishri, AM 3459 (Sept. 11, 3 BC).  That date was Rosh Ha-Shanah, a.k.a. Yom Teruah, or the Feast of Trumpets.  Rosh Ha-Shanah is the Jewish civil new year, and the first day of a king's reign according to Judean reckoning.  The chief minority scholarly opinion (previously the majority opinion) is that Herod the Great died in 1 BC, which would leave time for all the other events in the narrative.  Of course, if Herod died in 4 BC, which is the current majority opinion, then that doesn't work.  And, either way, it doesn't resolve the whole Census of Quirinius debate.  But, none the less, it's an interesting possibility.

And, by the way, contrary to what some people will argue, stars do stop in the sky.  In those days, people considered planets to be stars.  And, because of a quirk of being on an orbiting planet while looking at other orbiting planets, their paths appear from our perspective to briefly reverse direction every so often.  If you've ever seen something like 'Mercury is in retrograde' in astrology, then that's what they're talking about:  the apparent direction of Mercury's path has switched directions.  At the beginning (and at the end) of retrograde, the 'star' appears to stop in the sky.  (Of course, it doesn't stop over one specific location, nor is such a stopping immediately obvious by just looking up at one particular moment, so Matthew 2:9 still appears to describe something miraculous.)

[Rothman]

Not all Christian sects believe that Revelation Chapter 12 refers to Christ's birth, but rather a symbolic broader description of an overall war between good and evil with the woman and child representing the church and kingdom of God and the dragon being Satan.

[vdeane]

One intriguing convergence of all those astronomical occurrences was on 1 Tishri, AM 3459 (Sept. 11, 3 BC).  That date was Rosh Ha-Shanah, a.k.a. Yom Teruah, or the Feast of Trumpets.  Rosh Ha-Shanah is the Jewish civil new year, and the first day of a king's reign according to Judean reckoning.  The chief minority scholarly opinion (previously the majority opinion) is that Herod the Great died in 1 BC, which would leave time for all the other events in the narrative.  Of course, if Herod died in 4 BC, which is the current majority opinion, then that doesn't work.  And, either way, it doesn't resolve the whole Census of Quirinius debate.  But, none the less, it's an interesting possibility.

That makes me wonder if we should celebrate Christmas on 9/11.  Now isn't that an interesting correlation...

[kphoger]

Not all Christian sects believe that Revelation Chapter 12 refers to Christ's birth, but rather a symbolic broader description of an overall war between good and evil with the woman and child representing the church and kingdom of God and the dragon being Satan.

Yes, I know.  Ergo:

For what it's worth, it's possible to read Revelation ch. 12 as describing ...

[kphoger]

That makes me wonder if we should celebrate Christmas on 9/11.  Now isn't that an interesting correlation...

I mean, lately, January 6 (Epiphany) has already been taken over by the whole Capitol riot thing.

[kkt]

But there aren't any really good Thanksgiving movies.

Planes, Trains, and Automobiles isn't good enough?

You know, I've never seen Alice's Restaurant.

But yeah, you're right, there aren't very many.

There have been a couple of movies about the D.B. Cooper hijacking.

[GaryV]

How do you know how bright the Star of Bethlehem was?  Nothing in the biblical text says anything about its being exceptionally bright.

I know. But that's how you see it in a lot of pictures. Oftentimes over the stable with shepherds, wisemen, camels, sheep, angels et. al. And no other relatives around. 

[kphoger]

But that's how you see it in a lot of pictures. Oftentimes over the stable with shepherds, wisemen, camels, sheep, angels et. al. And no other relatives around.

And, as far as I know the artistic tradition of that only dates back to 18th-Century Italy.  Those Italian artists depicted the scene with much European pastoral influence:  a wooden hay trough under a wooden stable's shelter surrounded by green grass.  How very un-Palestinian.

[Scott5114]

It seems to me like the simplest explanation is just that Luke had no idea what the word "κατάλυμα" meant. (I know that Christian doctrine is that the Bible was divinely inspired, but I don't know whether that doctrine goes farther in saying that the mortal authors of the Bible were endowed with anything beyond the knowledge of what they should be writing about, such as divine competency at writing or infallibility in word choice.)

[kphoger]

It seems to me like the simplest explanation is just that Luke had no idea what the word "κατάλυμα" meant.

Ha!  Silly Luke...

(I know that Christian doctrine is that the Bible was divinely inspired, but I don't know whether that doctrine goes farther in saying that the mortal authors of the Bible were endowed with anything beyond the knowledge of what they should be writing about, such as divine competency at writing or infallibility in word choice.)

There are as many answers to that question among Christian theologians as you can imagine.

[Rothman]

There are as many answers to that question among Christian theologians prophets or false prophets as you can imagine.

[Beltway]

It is also my belief that the "star" wasn't the wondrously bright shiny thing that could be seen night and day, as commonly portrayed. When the wisemen got to Jerusalem and asked where the king was, Herod and his retinue didn't know what they were talking about. They hadn't seen the "star". It was most likely some planetary conjunction that only those from the east interpreted astrologically. Or perhaps some nova, a new star but not a supernova, that those who studied the skies recognized as not always having been there.

I saw the planetary conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn a few years ago ... But they were not bright enough to look like the Star of Bethlehem

Huh?  How do you know how bright the Star of Bethlehem was?  Nothing in the biblical text says anything about its being exceptionally bright.

The point isn't that the Star had to be physically brighter than Jupiter and Saturn (or Jupiter and Venus). It's that the biblical narrative describes something noticeable, distinctive, and directionally meaningful. A conjunction doesn't behave that way -- it doesn't 'go before' travelers or 'stand over' a specific location. So when I say the conjunction didn't look like the Star of Bethlehem, I mean it didn't resemble the kind of phenomenon the story describes.

[kkt]

Years ago, I would give CDs, DVDs, or BluRays as gifts, but considering that physical media is now a niche market, it doesn't work anymore.

I still remember the day that I made a mixtape for my sister and she told me she no longer has anything that can play a cassette tape.

My child was a fan of the TV show Psych.  Psych was set in the 1980s. They released a recording for fans to buy, and true to their era they released it on audio cassette.  So I got the cassette for my child, but then released we have no way to play it.  Off to the used audio gear store and found one.  Most expensive present for a teen...

[kkt]

I just go to the ATM, hit "Select my own bills" after punching in the amount of money I want, and tell it I want a $100.

I've never seen an ATM that let you do that.

[Rothman]

I just go to the ATM, hit "Select my own bills" after punching in the amount of money I want, and tell it I want a $100.

I've never seen an ATM that let you do that.

I just saw that option on one bank's ATM around here during one of my up-to-triannual withdrawals of cash.  Coming soon to an ATM near you...

[kphoger]

The point isn't that the Star had to be physically brighter than Jupiter and Saturn (or Jupiter and Venus). It's that the biblical narrative describes something noticeable, distinctive, and directionally meaningful. A conjunction doesn't behave that way -- it doesn't 'go before' travelers or 'stand over' a specific location. So when I say the conjunction didn't look like the Star of Bethlehem, I mean it didn't resemble the kind of phenomenon the story describes.

I've already described how Zoroastrian astrologers could reasonably be led to at least Jerusalem simply by interpreting the signs in the sky.  Which they did, as that's where they stopped to ask where the child was to be born.  That much of the story doesn't require a miracle.  And then they were told Bethlehem, so they started going to Bethlehem.  The only part of the narrative that seems to require a miracle is when the star stopped 'over the house' where the child was.

[Rothman]

Sounds like aliens.

[ZLoth]

My neighbor still hasn't taken down their Christmas decorations from their front yard.

[kkt]

My neighbor still hasn't taken down their Christmas decorations from their front yard.

They're not late.  They're early.

[kphoger]

Sounds like aliens.

How do you know what aliens sound like?

Or did you mean they were speaking Spanish?

[1995hoo]

I just go to the ATM, hit "Select my own bills" after punching in the amount of money I want, and tell it I want a $100.

I've never seen an ATM that let you do that.

I've seen multiple banks' ATMs that let you select what bills you want. There's one near us that offers at least $20s, $10s, $5s, and $1s. That's the only one I've ever seen that offers $5s and $1s and I often hit that particular ATM before I travel specifically to get some small bills to use for tips (hotel housekeeping, etc.). I don't remember whether that one offers anything larger than a $20. The ATM mentioned in the post you quoted is the only one I've seen that offers $100s; it dispenses $100s, $20s, and $10s (I generally hit that one before getting a haircut at the barbershop across the street from there so as to have $30 cash to cover the haircut and the tip).

The Citibank ATMs in downtown DC used to dispense $50s depending on how much cash you got, but they didn't give you a choice of denominations. I don't know what they offer now because I no longer work downtown and I no longer have an account at Citibank.