I-15 Control Cities in California

[Max Rockatansky]

So, you folks would be favor of reverting Tejon Pass back to "Castac Pass?" 

[Max Rockatansky]

To some extent, just about everything suggested is a way of saying "Cajon Pass" without saying "Cajon Pass", so I wonder if maybe that's the ideal solution.

Except there's a non-trivial risk of confusion with Tejon Pass on I-5. Sometimes I confuse the two passes, even though I used to live in southern California.

I didn't even know that the Cajon Pass existed for many years, probably because the Tejon Pass is so significant, as it basically is the entry point into the LA metro.

I-15 doesn't even use Cajon Pass; it uses Cajon Summit.  The actual Cajon Pass (and original National Old Trails Road) is on Forest Road 3N45.

[TheStranger]

One thing that I don't think has been brought up in this thread, but relevant for context:

IIRC I-40 for "Los Angeles" and I-15 also signed for LA both reflect when each were originally along what was US 66 (which did go to downtown LA).  I-15 being signed for LA in Vegas also has a historic basis due to US 91 (which does end up heading towards Long Beach and not too far from San Pedro).

I-15's eventual California routing is essentially a patchwork of the older 395 (Hesperia south towards San Diego) and 91 (San Bernardino north towards Vegas) corridors.

[Bickendan]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

[kendancy66]

To some extent, just about everything suggested is a way of saying "Cajon Pass" without saying "Cajon Pass", so I wonder if maybe that's the ideal solution.

Except there's a non-trivial risk of confusion with Tejon Pass on I-5. Sometimes I confuse the two passes, even though I used to live in southern California.

I sometimes confuse Cajon Pass with the city of El Cajon

[kphoger]

Victorville
other Desert
Cities

[PNWRoadgeek]

Victorville
other Desert
Cities

Does Vegas count as an
other
Desert City
In this case?

[Scott5114]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

[Bickendan]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

Fair. Point to the one in Oregon 

[PNWRoadgeek]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

Fair. Point to the one in Oregon 

Oh boy. That one has its own control city issues 

[PNWRoadgeek]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

I wanted to talk about this because not only does I-15 have little services between the Inland Empire besides the Hesperia area and Barstow, Hesperia itself is so weird.. the town is like 100k people but looks like a weird Texas-esque abandoned desert type town. Yet, right next to it is Victorville which looks like a standard California city.

[Max Rockatansky]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

I wanted to talk about this because not only does I-15 have little services between the Inland Empire besides the Hesperia area and Barstow, Hesperia itself is so weird.. the town is like 100k people but looks like a weird Texas-esque abandoned desert type town. Yet, right next to it is Victorville which looks like a standard California city.

There isn't much left of the Hesperia railroad siding aside from some of the street names from the original subdivision.  It looks vastly different nowadays given all the original structures have been long demolished.

[PNWRoadgeek]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

I wanted to talk about this because not only does I-15 have little services between the Inland Empire besides the Hesperia area and Barstow, Hesperia itself is so weird.. the town is like 100k people but looks like a weird Texas-esque abandoned desert type town. Yet, right next to it is Victorville which looks like a standard California city.

There isn't much left of the Hesperia railroad siding aside from some of the street names from the original subdivision.  It looks vastly different nowadays given all the original structures have been long demolished.

Huh, makes it even more interesting considering that it's population seems to be increasing.

Victorville is the bigger city though, and both are bigger than Barstow, which if it wasn't as major of a junction as it was nobody would care about.

Man, if only we could sign I-15 like this:

                 Baker
            other Thermometer
                Cities

I know that joke has become quite overused in this thread already considering the proximity of I-15 to the famous sign on the 10, but I couldn't help it.

[Max Rockatansky]

This might annoy the likes of Control City Todd, but southbound I-15 out of Las Vegas should use the dual control cities of Los Angeles and San Diego (like northbound I-5's Sacramento and San Francisco north of the 99 split) until Barstow. South of Barstow until the 395 merges in, San Bernadino becomes the control. There to the 215, it's San Bernadino - Los Angeles - San Diego. Then, to the 10, it's Ontario - Los Angeles - San Diego. South of the 10, it's just San Diego.

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

I've lived right next to Southern California for two years and if you wanted me to tell you where Ontario was on a map, I'd point at Canada. If you told me you meant the one in California, I'd tell you politely, yet firmly, to leave.

I wanted to talk about this because not only does I-15 have little services between the Inland Empire besides the Hesperia area and Barstow, Hesperia itself is so weird.. the town is like 100k people but looks like a weird Texas-esque abandoned desert type town. Yet, right next to it is Victorville which looks like a standard California city.

There isn't much left of the Hesperia railroad siding aside from some of the street names from the original subdivision.  It looks vastly different nowadays given all the original structures have been long demolished.

Huh, makes it even more interesting considering that it's population seems to be increasing.

Victorville is the bigger city though, and both are bigger than Barstow, which if it wasn't as major of a junction as it was nobody would care about.

Man, if only we could sign I-15 like this:

                 Baker
            other Thermometer
                Cities

I know that joke has become quite overused in this thread already considering the proximity of I-15 to the famous sign on the 10, but I couldn't help it.

Here are some vintage Hesperia photos showing what it looked like in the Auto Trail era:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1021840461559870/permalink/1340946696315910/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1021840461559870/permalink/1590643871346190/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1021840461559870/permalink/1932857090458198/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/271889456298313/permalink/1834525710034672/

The NOTR in Hesperia, Cajon Pass and Crowder Canyon can be seen as they were on page 16 here:

https://archive.org/details/nationaloldtrail00autorich/page/n9/mode/2up

[pderocco]

It annoys me because the section between Barstow and Hesperia barely feels like it even exists. Coming out of Barstow, it feels like you're basically at Cajon Pass. Coming down from the pass, it feels like I-40 is about to pop up at any minute.

Followed by half an hour of puzzled glancing at your watch.

[pderocco]

I wanted to talk about this because not only does I-15 have little services between the Inland Empire besides the Hesperia area and Barstow, Hesperia itself is so weird.. the town is like 100k people but looks like a weird Texas-esque abandoned desert type town. Yet, right next to it is Victorville which looks like a standard California city.

Hesperia and Victorville both had the misfortune of being chopped up by the railroad and the mostly dry Mojave River, with only three roads across them, Main St in Hesperia, Bear Valley Rd along the border, and 18 in Victorville. They've mitigated it some with the addition of Ranchero Rd in Hesperia and Green Tree Blvd/Yucca Loma Rd in Victorville, but that's still a pretty annoying barrier that makes the parts feel like separate isolated communities.

[kphoger]

Victorville
other Desert
Cities

Does Vegas count as an
other
Desert City
In this case?

Victorville
other SoCal
Cities

[mrsman]

Since most of the recent discussion is about I-15, I'll add my thoughts.

This is a 2di.  It links national cities and goes to multiple states.  The destination cities on the BGS should be well-known and reflect where people are traveling to.

Southbound:  From Las Vegas the southbound control is properly Los Angeles.  This should be the southbound control all the way to I-10.  The control should not change to San Bernardino, simply because the state line is crossed.

Smaller cities can be mentioned if the signs are big enough.  I'm OK with using secondary controls to highlight the approach of a significant smaller city IN ADDITION TO, not instead of a main city control.  So additional cities of Baker, Barstow, Victorville, Hesperia, and, yes, San Bernardino may be placed in addition, but never instead of L.A. on the entire stretch between NV and the I-215 split at Cajon Summit.  While I am OK with using the secondary control, my preference is just Los Angeles, since I believe that is all that is needed.

The current signage at the split is perfect:  I-15 south to Los Angeles, San Diego. I-215 south to San Bernardino, Riverside.

The dual controls of Los Angeles and San Diego should be signed from the I-215 split to the I-10 interchange.  I think a sign on the side of the road, approaching CA-210, should state that traffic to San Fernando Valley should use CA-210 west (that is currently signed for Pasadena).  I would keep Pasadena as the control for 210 west, but the sign does let people know that a good part of Metro L.A. (and technically speaking almost half of the City of L.A.'s land area is better reached by way of 210 than by 10.)

South of I-10, the control for I-15 SB should be San Diego.  The control for the 91 west ramp from I-15 (and from all points within Riverside county) should read "Anaheim" instead of "Beach Cities".  It is a non-descript destination that should be changed. 

South of CA-163, the control for I-15 SB should be National City, until I-5.  (The control for the ramp from SB CA-15 to NB I-5 should read "Downtown" instead of "Los Angeles.")

Northbound: The northbound control for CA-15, I-15 and CA-163 in the San Diego area should be consistent.  The consistent choice is Riverside.  (Escondido can be used as a secondary control, in addition to but not instead of Riverside).

At the 215/15 split in Murieta, I prefer Corona/Las Vegas for the control for I-15.  (The control of Riverside/San Bernardino for 215 can stay.)  A sign on the side should direct traffic to Metro Los Angeles to utilize I-15 north.

Once within the Corona city limits, the main northbound control should be Las Vegas.  I am OK with secondary controls like Ontario, Victorville, or Barstow, but I think Las Vegas has to be primary.

TLDR: My primary controls for SB 15 are Los Angeles until the Cajon split, then Los Angeles/San Diego between 215 and 10, and then San Diego.  For NB 15: Riverside until the Marieta split, then Corona/Las Vegas, and then Las Vegas.  The reason is to emphasize the main cities that are primary destinations of travel, even those not directly on the 15 corridor.

[TheStranger]

South of CA-163, the control for I-15 SB should be National City, until I-5.  (The control for the ramp from SB CA-15 to NB I-5 should read "Downtown" instead of "Los Angeles.")

This idea actually leads to an interesting thought exercise:

Given how substandard 163 is (due to being a pre-1950 freeway build as US 395), wouldn't it make sense to have 15 south still point people to downtown via 94 west?  Or at least maybe signed as a truck route.

What this makes me think of is the whole 170/5 split where 170 gets "Hollywood" and 5 "Los Angeles" southbound, even though 170/101 more directly leads to the north part of downtown LA.

[FredAkbar]

I've always been a fan of two control cities (one local/nearby, one far away and well-known) in dense settings. They serve different purposes.

For example, I-5N at the 101 split could be signed for "Glendale / Sacramento". Perhaps I-5S at the 133 interchange could be "Mission Viejo / San Diego". And so forth.

[Scott5114]

Maybe the northbound I-15 control city should be Nipton.

[US 395]

Since most of the recent discussion is about I-15, I'll add my thoughts.

This is a 2di.  It links national cities and goes to multiple states.  The destination cities on the BGS should be well-known and reflect where people are traveling to.

Southbound:  From Las Vegas the southbound control is properly Los Angeles.  This should be the southbound control all the way to I-10.  The control should not change to San Bernardino, simply because the state line is crossed.

Smaller cities can be mentioned if the signs are big enough.  I'm OK with using secondary controls to highlight the approach of a significant smaller city IN ADDITION TO, not instead of a main city control.  So additional cities of Baker, Barstow, Victorville, Hesperia, and, yes, San Bernardino may be placed in addition, but never instead of L.A. on the entire stretch between NV and the I-215 split at Cajon Summit.  While I am OK with using the secondary control, my preference is just Los Angeles, since I believe that is all that is needed.

The current signage at the split is perfect:  I-15 south to Los Angeles, San Diego. I-215 south to San Bernardino, Riverside.

The dual controls of Los Angeles and San Diego should be signed from the I-215 split to the I-10 interchange.  I think a sign on the side of the road, approaching CA-210, should state that traffic to San Fernando Valley should use CA-210 west (that is currently signed for Pasadena).  I would keep Pasadena as the control for 210 west, but the sign does let people know that a good part of Metro L.A. (and technically speaking almost half of the City of L.A.'s land area is better reached by way of 210 than by 10.)

South of I-10, the control for I-15 SB should be San Diego.  The control for the 91 west ramp from I-15 (and from all points within Riverside county) should read "Anaheim" instead of "Beach Cities".  It is a non-descript destination that should be changed. 

South of CA-163, the control for I-15 SB should be National City, until I-5.  (The control for the ramp from SB CA-15 to NB I-5 should read "Downtown" instead of "Los Angeles.")

Northbound: The northbound control for CA-15, I-15 and CA-163 in the San Diego area should be consistent.  The consistent choice is Riverside.  (Escondido can be used as a secondary control, in addition to but not instead of Riverside).

At the 215/15 split in Murieta, I prefer Corona/Las Vegas for the control for I-15.  (The control of Riverside/San Bernardino for 215 can stay.)  A sign on the side should direct traffic to Metro Los Angeles to utilize I-15 north.

Once within the Corona city limits, the main northbound control should be Las Vegas.  I am OK with secondary controls like Ontario, Victorville, or Barstow, but I think Las Vegas has to be primary.

TLDR: My primary controls for SB 15 are Los Angeles until the Cajon split, then Los Angeles/San Diego between 215 and 10, and then San Diego.  For NB 15: Riverside until the Marieta split, then Corona/Las Vegas, and then Las Vegas.  The reason is to emphasize the main cities that are primary destinations of travel, even those not directly on the 15 corridor.

Caltrans in SoCal seem to prefer signing cities in California before signing Las Vegas on northbound 15. I've noticed that on my travels between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Even the directional signage at the exits would have either the next town (like Yermo or Baker) or simply North or South.

Up north, Caltrans is a bit more consistent on 80. Going east from the Bay Bridge, Sacramento is primary. At the 50 split, it changes to Reno and stays that way the rest of the way. Going west from Reno, it's Sacramento to the Biz 80 split. From there, San Francisco is primary the rest of the way.

[FredAkbar]

Caltrans in SoCal seem to prefer signing cities in California before signing Las Vegas on northbound 15. I've noticed that on my travels between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Even the directional signage at the exits would have either the next town (like Yermo or Baker) or simply North or South.

This is true in some cases (that's how you end up with destinations like Needles and El Centro), but they do at least sign Las Vegas at the major interchanges, for example the 40 split and the 58 merge.

[US 395]

Caltrans in SoCal seem to prefer signing cities in California before signing Las Vegas on northbound 15. I've noticed that on my travels between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Even the directional signage at the exits would have either the next town (like Yermo or Baker) or simply North or South.

This is true in some cases (that's how you end up with destinations like Needles and El Centro), but they do at least sign Las Vegas at the major interchanges, for example the 40 split and the 58 merge.

Double checking Google Maps Street View, it's basically just those two. Barstow is signed way more than Las Vegas

[FredAkbar]

Caltrans in SoCal seem to prefer signing cities in California before signing Las Vegas on northbound 15. I've noticed that on my travels between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Even the directional signage at the exits would have either the next town (like Yermo or Baker) or simply North or South.

This is true in some cases (that's how you end up with destinations like Needles and El Centro), but they do at least sign Las Vegas at the major interchanges, for example the 40 split and the 58 merge.

Double checking Google Maps Street View, it's basically just those two. Barstow is signed way more than Las Vegas

Yeah, my two examples are in Barstow, so it's more like Barstow is the primary, then Las Vegas. Barstow is at least respectable as it's a hub for the 58/40. I imagine a lot of northbound I-15 traffic is headed to I-40.