I-44's Extension into Texas via the substandard H.E. Bailey Turnpike

[Scott5114]

Interesting but several sources support Wichita Falls being the main factor, a ~97,000 population in 1960 with no Interstate highway service.

Cite them, then.

Seems like a pretty decent state to me.

Well, yeah, it seems pretty decent because you don't have to live there.

[CoreySamson]

Interesting but several sources support Wichita Falls being the main factor, a ~97,000 population in 1960 with no Interstate highway service.

Cite them, then.

Seems like a pretty decent state to me.

Well, yeah, it seems pretty decent because you don't have to live there.

I think it's decent. But then again, I'm not everyone.

[Scott5114]

I think it's decent. But then again, I'm not everyone.

As I understand it, you also live there in the capacity of a college student, so many of the functions of adult life you would be required to engage in were you a full-time Oklahoma resident are instead handled for you by Texas. If that weren't the case, I would expect your opinion would differ.

[Beltway]

Interesting but several sources support Wichita Falls being the main factor, a ~97,000 population in 1960 with no Interstate highway service.

Cite them, then.

Seems like a pretty decent state to me.

Well, yeah, it seems pretty decent because you don't have to live there.

What's wrong with it?
. . . . .

The timeline doesn't support the anniversary explanation. Oklahoma's 75th was in 1982. The I‑44 extension and Bailey Turnpike designation changes were tied to AASHTO actions in the mid‑1980s, not any commemorative event. That's all in the AASHTO route logs and the Oklahoma Highway Commission minutes from that period.

The contents of that 10/9/82 Daily Oklahoman article have been quoted and summarized in multiple secondary sources over the years -- AASHTO route logs, OTA/ODOT archival summaries, and several transportation histories that reference the same administrative action. None of them mention a 75th‑anniversary motive. They all describe it as a routine renumbering following AASHTO approval of the I‑44 extension.

If the article itself explicitly ties the change to the anniversary, that line can be quoted. Otherwise, the documented record shows a functional routing decision, not a commemorative one.

[Scott5114]

What's wrong with it?

Enough that I spent a rather large sum of money to not have to live there anymore. I've written at great length on the subject on the forum; there's little need for me to rehash it yet again.

If the article itself explicitly ties the change to the anniversary, that line can be quoted.

It does. However I no longer have access to the archive I pulled it from when I was in college, just the papers I cited it in. You (or anyone who has more patience for newspaper archives) are welcome to try and find an alternate means of accessing it, though.

EDIT: I have bothered someone on the wiki to pull the article via Newspapers.com. The version of the article they have does not include any mention of the "Diamond Jubilee". Yet my papers from 2007 cite that article to that exact phrase, plain as day. The only potential explanation I have is that there could be multiple editions of the same article that were published under the same title, possibly also in the Oklahoma City Times—which was an evening paper owned by the Oklahoman at the time—and I saw a longer edition than the one Newspapers.com has archived.

@kphoger, you've managed to pull some frankly ridiculous research tricks out of your hat before—want to give this one a crack?

[kphoger]

The timeline doesn't support the anniversary explanation. Oklahoma's 75th was in 1982. The I‑44 extension and Bailey Turnpike designation changes were tied to AASHTO actions in the mid‑1980s, not any commemorative event. That's all in the AASHTO route logs and the Oklahoma Highway Commission minutes from that period.

@kphoger, you've managed to pull some frankly ridiculous research tricks out of your hat before—want to give this one a crack?

No, not particularly. 

Really, I was just going by what's available in the AASHTO route numbering archives.  But I'll note that, just in what I already posted from there, the decision to truncate I-44's extension from Abilene back to Wichita Falls dates back several years before 1982.  The final document has a 1982 date, but it includes prior correspondence that I've already posted from 1975.  Specifically this:

For presentation at the commission meeting of April 7, 1975

Specifically, we are now requesting that the Highway Commission authorize the Department to prepare the necessary documents for submission to the Federal Highway Administration, requesting that the Interstate 44 (I-44) designation be extended, via I-35 and I-240, to the US 62 connection with the Baily Turnpike southwest of Oklahoma City, and extending southwesterly along US 62, H. E. Baily Turnpike, US 277, and the section of the H. E. Bailey Turnpike south of Lawton, connecting with US 277, extending on south across the Red River to its junction with US 82 in Wichita Falls, Texas.

[Bobby5280]

High Tension Cable Guardrail is much stronger than it looks.

They're not strong enough. A couple weeks ago on April 8 there was a three person fatal collision on I-35 in Oklahoma. A lady lost control of her vehicle, went through the cable barrier in the median and hit an Oklahoma Highway Patrol vehicle head on. The lady had a child in her vehicle.

Not sure why Oklahoma did that. Penna. is the only other state that used such narrow turnpike medians.

Going back to my childhood, I remember the Pennsylvania Turnpike being narrow, but it had a physical barrier in the median. Maybe the barrier wasn't always there, but they did have the barriers in the 1980's.

The Interstate 33 designation could have been used for the Wichita Falls-Oklahoma City corridor, although extending the Interstate 44 designation was likely done to give the three toll roads one number. Still, the H.E. Bailey Turnpike should've been upgraded to Interstate Standards, although it is not too late to do so.

While I wouldn't mind I-44 from OKC to Wichita Falls and farther South being labeled as "I-33" the number change would create a bunch of headaches for people in the region. Any advertising or administrative documentation in both businesses and government would have to be updated to reflect the change.

I think the US-281 corridor from San Antonio to Wichita Falls could eventually be an "I-33" reliever route for I-35. But certain bits of idiocy happening along the corridor in some spots need to be remedied -which means developers need to stop building new condo buildings right up on the edge of the existing highway. It's not a city surface street. Assholes.

I-44 could still be extended to Abilene and even San Angelo, despite decisions made nearly 50 years ago. If I-27 is built out to its ultimate aspirations (extended to Laredo) it could divert a lot of truck traffic off I-35. More trucks would use the Del Rio port of entry to bypass the crowded Laredo port and avoid the heavy traffic on I-35. That would end up pushing a lot more commercial traffic up thru Abilene and Wichita Falls. That would make an I-44 extension more justifiable.

I don't know why the town of Anson didn't get a freeway bypass similar to work done in Stamford, Haskell, Munday, Goree and Seymour unless local residents there demanded such a thing NOT be built.

[kphoger]

More trucks would use the Del Rio port of entry

As someone who uses the Del Rio POE, may I just say thank you for convincing me to not want an I-44 extension. 

[Bobby5280]

Once I-27 gets built the Del Rio POE secret is going to get spilled anyway.

[kphoger]

Once I-27 gets built the Del Rio POE secret is going to get spilled anyway.

I-27 has already been built. 

[Beltway]

If the article itself explicitly ties the change to the anniversary, that line can be quoted.

It does. However I no longer have access to the archive I pulled it from when I was in college, just the papers I cited it in. You (or anyone who has more patience for newspaper archives) are welcome to try and find an alternate means of accessing it, though.
EDIT: I have bothered someone on the wiki to pull the article via Newspapers.com. The version of the article they have does not include any mention of the "Diamond Jubilee". Yet my papers from 2007 cite that article to that exact phrase, plain as day. The only potential explanation I have is that there could be multiple editions of the same article that were published under the same title, possibly also in the Oklahoma City Times—which was an evening paper owned by the Oklahoman at the time—and I saw a longer edition than the one Newspapers.com has archived.

If there were multiple editions, that's fine -- but the only version anyone has been able to actually produce (including the Newspapers.com pull you requested) contains no reference to the Diamond Jubilee. Until someone can show the text of an edition that does, the claim rests entirely on a 2007 citation note with no verifiable copy behind it.

Newspaper articles often ran in different lengths across morning/evening editions, but the burden is on the person making the anniversary claim to produce the version that contains that language. Right now, the documented version shows a routine renumbering tied to the I‑44 extension to Wichita Falls, with no commemorative motive.

If someone can surface an edition that explicitly ties the change to the 75th anniversary, that would settle it. But absent that, the record we can actually verify doesn't support the claim.

[Beltway]

What's wrong with it?

Enough that I spent a rather large sum of money to not have to live there anymore. I've written at great length on the subject on the forum; there's little need for me to rehash it yet again.

Interesting state but I have no desire to move there. Those EF5 tornadoes that have devastated the OKC area are frigthening.

[Beltway]

High Tension Cable Guardrail is much stronger than it looks.

They're not strong enough. A couple weeks ago on April 8 there was a three person fatal collision on I-35 in Oklahoma. A lady lost control of her vehicle, went through the cable barrier in the median and hit an Oklahoma Highway Patrol vehicle head on. The lady had a child in her vehicle.

There are always exceptions. Large trucks have punched thru concrete median barriers, and cars have rolled over them into oncoming traffic.

Modern 42 inch high thick designs are a recent advent. The older 32 inch high designs have the aforementioned cases. Large trucks can still roll over a 42 inch barrier.

Not sure why Oklahoma did that. Penna. is the only other state that used such narrow turnpike medians.

Going back to my childhood, I remember the Pennsylvania Turnpike being narrow, but it had a physical barrier in the median. Maybe the barrier wasn't always there, but they did have the barriers in the 1980's.

It had a double faced W-beam guardrail when I lived there in the 1970s. Still there in 1994 when I visited. Sometime later they replaced it with a concrete barrier.

[Bobby5280]

Interesting state but I have no desire to move there. Those EF5 tornadoes that have devastated the OKC area are frightening.

FWIW, I think the "gorilla hail" we get is more of a widespread problem.

[Beltway]

Interesting state but I have no desire to move there. Those EF5 tornadoes that have devastated the OKC area are frightening.

FWIW, I think the "gorilla hail" we get is more of a widespread problem.

Baseball size? Softball size?

[Bobby5280]

Baseball size? Softball size?

YES.

[kphoger]

My claim was simply that the phrase appears in the 1656 edition I consulted ... Once the correct 1656 digitization is identified, I can point to the exact leaf.

Until someone can show the text of an edition that does, the claim rests entirely on a 2007 citation note with no verifiable copy behind it ... If someone can surface an edition that explicitly ties the change to the 75th anniversary, that would settle it. But absent that, the record we can actually verify doesn't support the claim.

hmmmmmmmmm......

[Beltway]

My claim was simply that the phrase appears in the 1656 edition I consulted ... Once the correct 1656 digitization is identified, I can point to the exact leaf.

Until someone can show the text of an edition that does, the claim rests entirely on a 2007 citation note with no verifiable copy behind it ... If someone can surface an edition that explicitly ties the change to the 75th anniversary, that would settle it. But absent that, the record we can actually verify doesn't support the claim.

hmmmmmmmmm......

You are in a real roads thread -- not in Off Topic -- the standards are much higher.

[kphoger]

You are in a real roads thread -- not in Off Topic -- the standards are much higher.

The standard is 100% higher, you might say.

[Scott5114]

You are in a real roads thread -- not in Off Topic -- the standards are much higher.

Overruled; observation is relevant to establish credibility.

[PColumbus73]

"Impleasable... impleasable..." Scott cowered in terror at the frothing crowd of forum posters. They circled him like ravenous dolphins ready to devour a Baltimore bridge. "Show us your texts!" Cried an aggressive, knowledge-thirsty individual ready to claw the Medieval source from Scott's arms like 5-year-olds ODing on Dr. Pepper on Christmas morning. "I... am... the... Legacy... Steward..." Scott whimpered rocking himself to sleep.

[kphoger]

"Impleasable... impleasable..." Scott cowered in terror at the frothing crowd of forum posters. They circled him like ravenous dolphins ready to devour a Baltimore bridge. "Show us your texts!" Cried an aggressive, knowledge-thirsty individual ready to claw the Medieval source from Scott's arms like 5-year-olds ODing on Dr. Pepper on Christmas morning. "I... am... the... Legacy... Steward..." Scott whimpered rocking himself to sleep.

You're talking about Scott Nazelrod, aren't you? Fer sure.

[kphoger]

Hey, I did find this on a roadgeek website called ... umm, let's see ... called AA Roads:

City officials in Lawton and Wichita Falls long sought an extension of Interstate 44 via the tolled H.E. Bailey Turnpike southwest from Oklahoma City. The connection was desired both to benefit tourist traffic and industry and to add each city to the Interstate highway system.¹ Previous proposals outlined extending I-44 south beyond Wichita Falls to Abilene. Those were requests were unsuccessful, so in 1975 Texas Highway Department, Oklahoma Department of Highways and Federal Highway Administration officials collaborated on a route south only as far as Wichita Falls. Viewed more favorably, this was also contingent upon bringing U.S. 277 up to controlled access standards by removing the at-grade intersection with Rogers Lane in north Lawton.²

Efforts to redesignate the H.E. Bailey Turnpike and U.S. 277 freeway south from Lawton into Texas as part of Interstate 44 continued into 1977. The Oklahoma Transportation Commission advertised bids on a $3.3 million interchange to replace the traffic light at U.S. 277 and Rogers Lane. Additionally construction was underway to add a second span adjacent to the two-lane bridge taking U.S. 277 across the Red River.<sup>2

1</sup> — "Bailey 'Pike Change Eyed by State Unit." The Lawton Constitution (OK), April 9, 1975.

² — "Interstate Hopes Alive." The Lawton Constitution (OK), October 16, 1977.

[kphoger]

¹ — "Bailey 'Pike Change Eyed by State Unit." The Lawton Constitution (OK), April 9, 1975.

Page 3:

The Oklahoma Highway Commission has voted to seek the extension of I-44 designation from Oklahoma City southwest across the Texas border ...

Highway Commission Chairman J. C. Kennedy said ... that earlier attempts to get the route redesignated had been unsuccessful, since the requested redesignation extended all the way to Abilene.  He said that discussion among the Oklahoma Department of Highways, the Federal Highway Administration, and Texas Highway Department officials had indicated that the shorter extension, only as far as Wichita Falls, was viewed more favorably.

² — "Interstate Hopes Alive." The Lawton Constitution (OK), October 16, 1977.

Page 6:

In the meantime, Cong. Tom Steed of the Oklahoma Fourth District and Cong. Jack Hightower of Wichita Falls are working in Washington, D.C. to bring about designation of the Oklahoma City–Lawton–Wichita Falls toll and free road as an extension of I-44, the route of both the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes from Joplin, Mo.

Whether the two congressmen can persuade the Department of Transportation to extend I-44 to Wichita Falls remains to be seen.  Legislation might be necessary.  J.C. Kennedy, former Oklahoma Transportation Department chairman ... former highway Chairman Charlie Payne, and other Lawtonians have worked for several years to bring interstate highway recognition to Lawton.

In terms of tourist traffic, industry, and other desirable benefits, an interstate highway means a great deal to a community.  It would be especially satisfying to Lawton if such a feat were accomplished because this southwest Oklahoma hub city has had to fight every step of the way to obtain a modern highway link to the rest of the state and the nation.

[Beltway]

You are in a real roads thread -- not in Off Topic -- the standards are much higher.

Overruled; observation is relevant to establish credibility.

Whatever -- the issue of the origin of OK/TX I-44 is not a hill to die on.

Especially when you live on the eastern seaboard.