The Return of the Sedan?

[interstatefan990]

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

This is happening with a lot of automakers as the EV craze slows down and runs into a bit of a reality check. Ford killed its F-150 Lightning, Nissan axed its Ariya, Volkswagen paused its I.D. Buzz, Genesis dropped its electric G80, and I could go on. Many of these kinds of models were half-baked projects that weren't truly ready to compete with gas cars, but there is also the loss of federal EV tax credits and overall slow adoption of EVs by consumers.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

[Scott5114]

It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

It really depends on the market. You see tons and tons of EVs on the West Coast due to higher fuel prices out here. I can't leave the house in Las Vegas without seeing dozens of them. Rooftop solar panels are very popular here (it really helps with how expensive it is to run the AC here!) and once you have that it really makes no sense to not use the panels to their full potential and charge a car too.

Places with cheaper gas and less solar, maybe not so much.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'd be more willing to accept trying an EV as a daily driver if they weren't mostly priced liked luxury cars.  Even when it came to buying a Prius or a Corolla Hybrid recently the price hike for the PHEV (the Prius) was hard to justify. 

[Takumi]

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

My point is that Honda is specifically not doing that. They're replacing their planned EVs with nothing until 2029.

[Takumi]

I'd be more willing to accept trying an EV as a daily driver if they weren't mostly priced liked luxury cars.  Even when it came to buying a Prius or a Corolla Hybrid recently the price hike for the PHEV (the Prius) was hard to justify. 

The flip side of that is that their depreciation is steep enough that if you're willing to buy one used you can get a killer deal, even on the likes of the Porsche Taycan.

[interstatefan990]

It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

It really depends on the market. You see tons and tons of EVs on the West Coast due to higher fuel prices out here. I can't leave the house in Las Vegas without seeing dozens of them. Rooftop solar panels are very popular here (it really helps with how expensive it is to run the AC here!) and once you have that it really makes no sense to not use the panels to their full potential and charge a car too.

Places with cheaper gas and less solar, maybe not so much.

Is it really the fuel prices? I always just assumed the West Coast (principally California) was just more receptive in general to EVs, especially with the strict clean-air standards, expansive charging network, and technology-forward mindset they have there. Here in New York, we have high gas prices too, yet you don't see the same rate of EV adoption as the West.

The flip side of that is that their depreciation is steep enough that if you're willing to buy one used you can get a killer deal, even on the likes of the Porsche Taycan.

The catch is that by the time you purchase the EV, the battery range will likely have degraded at least somewhat, which is not a concern with gas cars.

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

My point is that Honda is specifically not doing that. They're replacing their planned EVs with nothing until 2029.

I'm not surprised that they'd be cautious with new hybrids. The Clarity and Insight both got killed off due to slow uptake. Honda has lately been hybridizing their current lineup, relying on long-running nameplates/platforms to maintain consumer trust in their electrified products. They just reintroduced the Prelude, but that is in no way intended to be a volume model for the brand. Hopefully when they bring back the Element in a few years, they'll do it the right way.

[Scott5114]

Is it really the fuel prices? I always just assumed the West Coast (principally California) was just more receptive in general to EVs, especially with the strict clean-air standards, expansive charging network, and technology-forward mindset they have there.

Probably a little of both, but California prices tend to be even higher than New York's (current statewide GasBuddy average: $5.32 in CA vs $4.03 in NY) due to the special blend required there to comply with CARB regulations. Nevada's prices are high too (statewide GasBuddy average: $4.50) because our closest refineries are all in California (and thus dispense California blend), though they're somewhat lower because our taxes are lower and we also get a minority of our fuel from Utah.

[Max Rockatansky]

Is it really the fuel prices? I always just assumed the West Coast (principally California) was just more receptive in general to EVs, especially with the strict clean-air standards, expansive charging network, and technology-forward mindset they have there.

Probably a little of both, but I believe California prices tend to be even higher than New York's due to the special blend required there to comply with CARB regulations. Nevada's prices are high too because our closest refineries are all in California (and thus dispense California blend), though they're somewhat lower because our taxes are lower and we also get a minority of our fuel from Utah.

Most of that EV adoption is still centric to the large urban areas.  I see EVs around me frequently in Fresno.  Once I get out into the Sierra Nevada foothills, small San Joaquin Valley towns or the Diablo Range they pretty much disappear in lieu of ICE laden vehicles.  I suppose that tracks for a lot of reasons.

California also was really big on pushing EV tax credits.  I want to say that new one just got launched?

The gas excise tax is the media punching bag in California.  For some reason nobody (including the media) ever directs their ire at CARB blend gasoline.  CARB fuel blends are the really price driver, especially in the summer. 

[Scott5114]

Is it really the fuel prices? I always just assumed the West Coast (principally California) was just more receptive in general to EVs, especially with the strict clean-air standards, expansive charging network, and technology-forward mindset they have there.

Probably a little of both, but I believe California prices tend to be even higher than New York's due to the special blend required there to comply with CARB regulations. Nevada's prices are high too because our closest refineries are all in California (and thus dispense California blend), though they're somewhat lower because our taxes are lower and we also get a minority of our fuel from Utah.

Most of that EV adoption is still centric to the large urban areas.  I see EVs around me frequently in Fresno.  Once I get out into the Sierra Nevada foothills, small San Joaquin Valley towns or the Diablo Range they pretty much disappear in lieu of ICE laden vehicles.  I suppose that tracks for a lot of reasons.

California also was really big on pushing EV tax credits.  I want to say that new one just got launched?

The gas excise tax is the media punching bag in California.  For some reason nobody (including the media) ever directs their ire at CARB blend gasoline.  CARB fuel blends are the really price driver, especially in the summer. 

As I understand it, owning an EV is pretty simple if you happen to live in a city and own your own home. If you are hoofing it through rural areas pretty frequently, or you rent, things get a lot more complicated and it stops making sense.

Since we own our own home and my wife never leaves the Las Vegas Valley, an EV would be ideal for her. It would save us a lot of money if we had one. Trouble is we can't take on a car payment right now, especially at the prices EVs are going for. Too bad there isn't an American version of BYD.

CARB blend gas is more expensive, but I believe is responsible for eliminating the blankets of smog that used to coat urban areas in California. Many California urban areas are in valleys and basins where pollutants get trapped and have nowhere to go. So while getting rid of it might bring prices down, it would have a pretty big negative health effect on everyone in those urban areas.

[kkt]

SUVs are just neutered minivans anyways. If you wanted a "big" car capable of hauling stuff, what you really needed was a minivan.

Source: parents drove a 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan for 11 years

The minivan is too practical for its own good. It works so well as a family car and a cargo hauler, that its identity/image has become shaped around that usage, and now it's no longer "cool". And then everyone buys an SUV, because oh hey, at least they're not driving a mom car.

That's the reason the minivan is no longer popular? Buying a "cool" car for a daily driver is terrible rationale.

A college friend of mine bought a used Beemer recently (BMW 330i) and while it was his dream car (and it is a sedan!) + a planned purchase...man those maintenance costs are gonna eat him alive.

Probably worth pointing out that there are two current generation Corolla buyers active in the thread.  For me the model I got was easy to obtain as the dealer had about a dozen on the lot.  Apparently about 250,000 Corollas were sold in the U.S. last year.  Yeah, that isn't as much as the RAV4 but that's not exactly a small amount of sales.

Another point for sedans. No need to worry about lead times or shipping when there's already 13 other copies of the car on the lot.

(In my case, there weren't 13 other copies of the Corolla Hybrid. Still taking it for the redonkulous MPG without having to sacrifice an organ to pay for public charging.)

Really depends what you want.  What I wanted in 2018 was a manual transmission Accord.  One had to be sent to me from a dealer 200 miles away.  But I'm glad I did, as Honda quit making the manuals...

[I-55]

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

My point is that Honda is specifically not doing that. They're replacing their planned EVs with nothing until 2029.

I'm not surprised that they'd be cautious with new hybrids. The Clarity and Insight both got killed off due to slow uptake. Honda has lately been hybridizing their current lineup, relying on long-running nameplates/platforms to maintain consumer trust in their electrified products. They just reintroduced the Prelude, but that is in no way intended to be a volume model for the brand. Hopefully when they bring back the Element in a few years, they'll do it the right way.

My parents (who've owed two Siennas with a combined 500k miles) recently bought an Odyssey for longevity because Toyota no longer makes non-hybrid Siennas. The hybrid battery may be better for fuel economy, but once the battery goes, the vehicle is done (as the battery replacement would cost more than the value of the vehicle). We're a hard "no" on EVs until there's more efficient mechanisms for charging on long trips, in addition to the same battery concerns as with hybrids.

[Max Rockatansky]

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

My point is that Honda is specifically not doing that. They're replacing their planned EVs with nothing until 2029.

I'm not surprised that they'd be cautious with new hybrids. The Clarity and Insight both got killed off due to slow uptake. Honda has lately been hybridizing their current lineup, relying on long-running nameplates/platforms to maintain consumer trust in their electrified products. They just reintroduced the Prelude, but that is in no way intended to be a volume model for the brand. Hopefully when they bring back the Element in a few years, they'll do it the right way.

My parents (who've owed two Siennas with a combined 500k miles) recently bought an Odyssey for longevity because Toyota no longer makes non-hybrid Siennas. The hybrid battery may be better for fuel economy, but once the battery goes, the vehicle is done (as the battery replacement would cost more than the value of the vehicle). We're a hard "no" on EVs until there's more efficient mechanisms for charging on long trips, in addition to the same battery concerns as with hybrids.

FWIW Toyota has a 200,000 mile warranty on hybrid batteries.  That certainly alleviated much of my concern when I bought my Corolla hybrid. 

[Max Rockatansky]

Is it really the fuel prices? I always just assumed the West Coast (principally California) was just more receptive in general to EVs, especially with the strict clean-air standards, expansive charging network, and technology-forward mindset they have there.

Probably a little of both, but I believe California prices tend to be even higher than New York's due to the special blend required there to comply with CARB regulations. Nevada's prices are high too because our closest refineries are all in California (and thus dispense California blend), though they're somewhat lower because our taxes are lower and we also get a minority of our fuel from Utah.

Most of that EV adoption is still centric to the large urban areas.  I see EVs around me frequently in Fresno.  Once I get out into the Sierra Nevada foothills, small San Joaquin Valley towns or the Diablo Range they pretty much disappear in lieu of ICE laden vehicles.  I suppose that tracks for a lot of reasons.

California also was really big on pushing EV tax credits.  I want to say that new one just got launched?

The gas excise tax is the media punching bag in California.  For some reason nobody (including the media) ever directs their ire at CARB blend gasoline.  CARB fuel blends are the really price driver, especially in the summer. 

As I understand it, owning an EV is pretty simple if you happen to live in a city and own your own home. If you are hoofing it through rural areas pretty frequently, or you rent, things get a lot more complicated and it stops making sense.

Since we own our own home and my wife never leaves the Las Vegas Valley, an EV would be ideal for her. It would save us a lot of money if we had one. Trouble is we can't take on a car payment right now, especially at the prices EVs are going for. Too bad there isn't an American version of BYD.

CARB blend gas is more expensive, but I believe is responsible for eliminating the blankets of smog that used to coat urban areas in California. Many California urban areas are in valleys and basins where pollutants get trapped and have nowhere to go. So while getting rid of it might bring prices down, it would have a pretty big negative health effect on everyone in those urban areas.

I'll be curious to see how Slate actually does with selling 25k basic EV trucks.  If Slat does well then maybe that will instill some hope in my head that basic EV cars and CUVs will be a thing in U.S. in the near future.  I did see a couple BYD cars down in Mexico.  At least in Mexico they are competitively priced with ICE alternatives.

CARB and their EPA waivers is an interesting subject.  I was looking at a 1986 K5 Blazer yesterday which a neighbor is selling.  It had the 305CI V8 instead of the 350 because the latter wasn't emissions compliant for that model year.  CARB waivers aren't new but they never sought something super extreme until the 2035 PHEV mandate.  With California taking the PHEV waiver denial to Federal Court what happens if they lose their lawsuit?  The worst thing that could happen from California's perspective is that the Federal court system rules that all EPA waivers are subject to the Congressional Review Act. 

[1995hoo]

I'm interested in seeing the reaction when people learn the Slate Truck has crank-operated windows.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm interested in seeing the reaction when people learn the Slate Truck has crank-operated windows.

One less motor that will break down over time. 

[I-55]

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

My point is that Honda is specifically not doing that. They're replacing their planned EVs with nothing until 2029.

I'm not surprised that they'd be cautious with new hybrids. The Clarity and Insight both got killed off due to slow uptake. Honda has lately been hybridizing their current lineup, relying on long-running nameplates/platforms to maintain consumer trust in their electrified products. They just reintroduced the Prelude, but that is in no way intended to be a volume model for the brand. Hopefully when they bring back the Element in a few years, they'll do it the right way.

My parents (who've owed two Siennas with a combined 500k miles) recently bought an Odyssey for longevity because Toyota no longer makes non-hybrid Siennas. The hybrid battery may be better for fuel economy, but once the battery goes, the vehicle is done (as the battery replacement would cost more than the value of the vehicle). We're a hard "no" on EVs until there's more efficient mechanisms for charging on long trips, in addition to the same battery concerns as with hybrids.

FWIW Toyota has a 200,000 mile warranty on hybrid batteries.  That certainly alleviated much of my concern when I bought my Corolla hybrid. 

Of our two Siennas, our older one died at 298k miles, and the other is still running well at 202k. I guess their concern was at higher mileage than just 200k. We also have a Pilot with 240k though that one is very near its end.

[1995hoo]

I'm interested in seeing the reaction when people learn the Slate Truck has crank-operated windows.

One less motor that will break down over time. 

True. I can't help but wonder, though, how many younger people have never even seen crank windows.

[vdeane]

I mean, I've seen crank windows before, but I was very young, so only as a passenger.  How did people even use them while driving?

[Max Rockatansky]

I mean, I've seen crank windows before, but I was very young, so only as a passenger.  How did people even use them while driving?

Left hand for the driver door and a reach over with your right at the opportune moment for the passenger door.

[kphoger]

I mean, I've seen crank windows before, but ... How did people even use them while driving?

Left hand

This.  Pretty simple.

As for the other three windows, you had to either put them down/up before starting to drive, or else contort your body through the passenger compartment and veer all over the road for a minute.

[The_Ginger]

True. I can't help but wonder, though, how many younger people have never even seen crank windows.

As a younger person, I've been in a base model 2011 or 2010 Hyundai Accent with crank windows. I have also been in other older cars with them.

[Max Rockatansky]

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird.

As much as I prefer gasoline cars and as much as I miss the V6 Camry, I think Toyota is doing the right thing economically by hybridizing its lineup. It seems the market is much more ready for those than it is for EVs at this point.

My point is that Honda is specifically not doing that. They're replacing their planned EVs with nothing until 2029.

I'm not surprised that they'd be cautious with new hybrids. The Clarity and Insight both got killed off due to slow uptake. Honda has lately been hybridizing their current lineup, relying on long-running nameplates/platforms to maintain consumer trust in their electrified products. They just reintroduced the Prelude, but that is in no way intended to be a volume model for the brand. Hopefully when they bring back the Element in a few years, they'll do it the right way.

My parents (who've owed two Siennas with a combined 500k miles) recently bought an Odyssey for longevity because Toyota no longer makes non-hybrid Siennas. The hybrid battery may be better for fuel economy, but once the battery goes, the vehicle is done (as the battery replacement would cost more than the value of the vehicle). We're a hard "no" on EVs until there's more efficient mechanisms for charging on long trips, in addition to the same battery concerns as with hybrids.

FWIW Toyota has a 200,000 mile warranty on hybrid batteries.  That certainly alleviated much of my concern when I bought my Corolla hybrid. 

Of our two Siennas, our older one died at 298k miles, and the other is still running well at 202k. I guess their concern was at higher mileage than just 200k. We also have a Pilot with 240k though that one is very near its end.

Something I've always wondered is what happens to the vehicle when/if the hybrid motor dies?  Does it brick the vehicle or can it continue running off the internal combustion engine alone?

[Scott5114]

Something I've always wondered is what happens to the vehicle when/if the hybrid motor dies?  Does it brick the vehicle or can it continue running off the internal combustion engine alone?

Even if a hybrid could run off of the ICE alone, you wouldn't want to drive it like that for any meaningful amount of time. The ICE part of a hybrid engine is designed to be as fuel efficient as possible, sacrificing things like "get up and go". The electric part is what compensates for the shortcomings of the hobbled ICE to produce something resembling a normal car's behavior. So you might be able to limp home with just the ICE but you certainly wouldn't want to do anything with it other than get it fixed.

[formulanone]

I mean, I've seen crank windows before, but I was very young, so only as a passenger.  How did people even use them while driving?

Left hand for the driver door and a reach over with your right at the opportune moment for the passenger door.

Also, wait until you're in a taller gear (4th-5th)...

Something I've always wondered is what happens to the vehicle when/if the hybrid motor dies?  Does it brick the vehicle or can it continue running off the internal combustion engine alone?

Even if a hybrid could run off of the ICE alone, you wouldn't want to drive it like that for any meaningful amount of time. The ICE part of a hybrid engine is designed to be as fuel efficient as possible, sacrificing things like "get up and go". The electric part is what compensates for the shortcomings of the hobbled ICE to produce something resembling a normal car's behavior. So you might be able to limp home with just the ICE but you certainly wouldn't want to do anything with it other than get it fixed.

It depends if it was designed to be driven without the battery or not, I'd assume. I've driven a few hybrids with the battery charge down to 0% and unwilling to regenerate, and they ran fine. However, these may have been "mild hybrids" which have limited range without the ICE. There may be some vehicles which will refuse to start of the hybrid battery/motor assembly has failed or has no signal, but I theorize that depends on the mapping sequence of the engine control module whether it permits firing the engine up or not due to a major failure code.

[vdeane]

I mean, I've seen crank windows before, but I was very young, so only as a passenger.  How did people even use them while driving?

Left hand for the driver door and a reach over with your right at the opportune moment for the passenger door.

Isn't it bad to lean over to reach the crank while driving?  I'm thinking of situations like accelerating away from a toll booth or customs.  Or even getting in to customs.  It feels like I don't even have time to put the parking brake on and shift my car into neutral before the border guards get irritated that I'm taking too long to hand over my documents and start their interrogation - and that's less than half the time I remember crank windows taking.