The Return of the Sedan?

[Max Rockatansky]

What I always found weird about the Pathfinder is that the generations have never been consistently body-on-frame or uni-body.

Is it not the case that everything through the third generation is body-on-frame but everything from fourth generation on is unibody?

Correct, the second generation was a unibody whereas the first generation was body on frame.

[interstatefan990]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

[Max Rockatansky]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

The way new Japanese cars are sold dealerships it would be quite the trick trying to find AWD models.  You can't just order a vehicle like you can with a domestic automaker.  Essentially you are beholden to what the dealer has in stock in their network.  I tried to find a Corolla hybrid with AWD but didn't have luck.  It wasn't exactly a deal breaker and I settled for the FWD model. 

[interstatefan990]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

The way new Japanese cars are sold dealerships it would be quite the trick trying to find AWD models.  You can't just order a vehicle like you can with a domestic automaker.  Essentially you are beholden to what the dealer has in stock in their network.  I tried to find a Corolla hybrid with AWD but didn't have luck.  It wasn't exactly a deal breaker and I settled for the FWD model. 

Weird considering a lot of the major Japanese brands have a significant production presence in the USA. It's not like they don't have the capability.

[Max Rockatansky]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

The way new Japanese cars are sold dealerships it would be quite the trick trying to find AWD models.  You can't just order a vehicle like you can with a domestic automaker.  Essentially you are beholden to what the dealer has in stock in their network.  I tried to find a Corolla hybrid with AWD but didn't have luck.  It wasn't exactly a deal breaker and I settled for the FWD model. 

Weird considering a lot of the major Japanese brands have a significant production presence in the USA. It's not like they don't have the capability.

It is a leftover from how dealerships used to be further back in time.  The domestic brands were heavy on haggling and making deals.  The Japanese manufacturers tried to have a simpler model which relied on less haggling and selling the actual cars on the lot.  Saturn started out largely as GM's attempt to emulate Japanese cars and the dealership experience. 

[Takumi]

I still draw distinction between a traditional body on frame SUV and a unibody CUV.

I've driven a 2006 Nissan Pathfinder several hours off-pavement into the desert of southern Coahuila.  Don't think I'd want to try that in a current generation Pathfinder!

What I always found weird about the Pathfinder is that the generations have never been consistently body-on-frame or uni-body.  You'd have fork over for the Armada these days if you want body-on-frame from the current Nissan lineup. 

Supposedly the next generation of Pathfinder will have both body-on-frame and unibody versions. They're also bringing the Xterra back in 2028. (And if you can live with a bed instead of an SUV cargo area, there is the Frontier.)

[Max Rockatansky]

I still draw distinction between a traditional body on frame SUV and a unibody CUV.

I've driven a 2006 Nissan Pathfinder several hours off-pavement into the desert of southern Coahuila.  Don't think I'd want to try that in a current generation Pathfinder!

What I always found weird about the Pathfinder is that the generations have never been consistently body-on-frame or uni-body.  You'd have fork over for the Armada these days if you want body-on-frame from the current Nissan lineup. 

Supposedly the next generation of Pathfinder will have both body-on-frame and unibody versions. They're also bringing the Xterra back in 2028. (And if you can live with a bed instead of an SUV cargo area, there is the Frontier.)

While that would be cool to see another body on frame Pathfinder I think Nissan has a lot of work to do if I'm going to be interested in anything they sell.  All those sloppy CVTs and Big Altima energy give me icky vibes about the grand.  Toyota seems to be at least still getting the Tacoma right and that would fit my body on frame needs.

[Takumi]

I still draw distinction between a traditional body on frame SUV and a unibody CUV.

I've driven a 2006 Nissan Pathfinder several hours off-pavement into the desert of southern Coahuila.  Don't think I'd want to try that in a current generation Pathfinder!

What I always found weird about the Pathfinder is that the generations have never been consistently body-on-frame or uni-body.  You'd have fork over for the Armada these days if you want body-on-frame from the current Nissan lineup. 

Supposedly the next generation of Pathfinder will have both body-on-frame and unibody versions. They're also bringing the Xterra back in 2028. (And if you can live with a bed instead of an SUV cargo area, there is the Frontier.)

While that would be cool to see another body on frame Pathfinder I think Nissan has a lot of work to do if I'm going to be interested in anything they sell.  All those sloppy CVTs and Big Altima energy give me icky vibes about the grand.

None of the body on frame stuff uses a CVT.

Toyota seems to be at least still getting the Tacoma right

A turbo 4 on a truck doesn't sound like a recipe for longevity for me. Not even for Toyota.

[Max Rockatansky]

Who said I was specifically talking about the current generation Tacoma?  If I can find a third generation Tacoma with the 3.5L V6 and beat to hell body that would be ideal. 

What I'm looking at is budgeting 20k into getting something that I can use almost exclusively for overlanding, Forest Roads and some minor towing.  Currently I have a little over 9k saved up in a fund for this.  I've had a lot of bad luck with GM vehicles in recent decades and haven't heard much better about recent Nissan quality across their lineup (not that my GMT400 wasn't a shit box).  Toyota seems to the safest bet outside of the newer Tundras from everything I've read up on.  I like the Wrangler but all the modern variants seem to have significant maintenance/quality issues. 

My wife wanting to buy a new RAV4 makes things interesting since that in theory would make our current Forester a blank canvas.  So far the Forester in stock trim and with street tires has handled every road I've road at it except Hites Cove.  Mud Tires alone would make a huge difference and I have some other ideas on how to beef up the suspension. 

My wife asked for help putting down 5k on a RAV4 Woodland which I did agree to chip in on.  We'll see if that purchase actually comes to fruition or gets kicked down to the 2027 or 2028 model years.  She did put a deposit down but the vehicle won't come in for about a month. 

Currently we have three vehicles in my garage:

-  A 2016 Dodge Challenger Scat Pack with about 10,000 miles.
-  A 2018 Subaru Forester with about 220,000 miles. 
-  A 2024 Corolla SE Hybrid with about 50,000 miles. 

I had my 2019 Impreza (about 181,000 miles) until last year when I sold it one of my wife's nieces.  It was my former daily driver and I got rid of it to make way for a new RAV4.  I ordered my Challenger back in 2015 and it basically is just a toy that I'll probably never get rid of.  My wife's current daily is the Forester but I use it a lot of Forest Roads and high clearance stuff.  The Corolla is my current daily driver and has a pretty clear commuting purpose.  All we are missing is something with serious off road capability and can tow a small size trailer.  My wife has been wanting a small pop-up camper for years but finding one small enough to be towed by the Forester is a challenge (it is rated for about 1,000lbs). 

[Takumi]

I looked for a 3rd gen Tacoma for a bit. I found that the Frontier got you a lot more truck for the money and doesn't have much in the way of issues after 2011, so I got that.

[Max Rockatansky]

Maybe that's worth a look then.  I like shopping around for vehicles and it probably wouldn't hurt to check out more models.

[kphoger]

the second generation was a unibody

Huh.  I didn't realize that till now.

The way new Japanese cars are sold dealerships it would be quite the trick trying to find AWD models.  You can't just order a vehicle like you can with a domestic automaker.  Essentially you are beholden to what the dealer has in stock in their network.  I tried to find a Corolla hybrid with AWD but didn't have luck.  It wasn't exactly a deal breaker and I settled for the FWD model. 

When my dad was looking for a new car in the late 1990s, he decided on a 1997 Toyota Camry with a stick-shift.  We drove up to the Toyota dealership in McCook, NE.  As expected, there were none on the lot, so we asked if he would order one in from wherever.  The answer was no, he wasn't allowed to have more than a certain number of Camrys on the lot at any given time.  Even though you have a paying customer right in front of you?  Nope, no can do.  But he looked it up for us in the database and found one for sale in Denver, CO.  So we drove to Denver and came home with the car he wanted.

What I'm looking at is budgeting 20k into getting something that I can use almost exclusively for overlanding, Forest Roads and some minor towing.

I borrowed a 5th-generation Toyota 4Runner a few years ago for a camping trip to Colorado with the boys, including a drive over Cordova Pass along the Highway of Legends Scenic Byway between Cucharas Pass and Aguilar, and I was quite pleased with the vehicle.  If I had $20k to spend on a vehicle to be used off-road, then I'd probably shop around for one of those.

I found that the Frontier got you a lot more truck for the money and doesn't have much in the way of issues after 2011, so I got that.

I used to own a 2006 Pathfinder, which uses the same engine as the Frontier.  (Before that, I owned a 2007, but I ran a red light one day and t-boned someone hard enough to total it.)  Our best friends, down in Mexico, still drive a 2005.  None of the three vehicles appear to have had the dreaded coolant-leaking-into-the-transmission thing.  We did have to have the timing chains replaced in the 2006, which was a huge ordeal.  We also had another persistent oil leak problem that eventually led to its throwing a rod.  Our friends' 2005 blew a head gasket several years ago, so it now has a 2011 or 2012 Xterra engine instead.

Anyway, from what I've researched over the years, I'd say the sweet spot of reliability for a non-unibody Pathfinder would be the 2011 and 2012 model years.  The 2009 and 2010 models before them resolved some of the issues that the 2005-07 models had had, but not as many as the 2011-12 models did.

Our friends bought aftermarket skid plates for their '05 Pathfinder, and they're very glad they did.  Even with the high ground clearance of that vehicle, they do a lot of rough desert driving down there, and the skid plates have saved their vehicle a time or two.

[Max Rockatansky]

The 4Runner is another used vehicle I've done a little bit of looking into.  They seem to be less prevalent than used Tacomas.  The older Tacomas tend to hold their value more than I expected.  I haven't seen enough 4Runner prices to tell if they are subject to a similar phenomenon. 

[Takumi]

I used to own a 2006 Pathfinder, which uses the same engine as the Frontier.  (Before that, I owned a 2007, but I ran a red light one day and t-boned someone hard enough to total it.)  Our best friends, down in Mexico, still drive a 2005.  None of the three vehicles appear to have had the dreaded coolant-leaking-into-the-transmission thing.  We did have to have the timing chains replaced in the 2006, which was a huge ordeal.  We also had another persistent oil leak problem that eventually led to its throwing a rod.  Our friends' 2005 blew a head gasket several years ago, so it now has a 2011 or 2012 Xterra engine instead.

Anyway, from what I've researched over the years, I'd say the sweet spot of reliability for a non-unibody Pathfinder would be the 2011 and 2012 model years.  The 2009 and 2010 models before them resolved some of the issues that the 2005-07 models had had, but not as many as the 2011-12 models did.

Our friends bought aftermarket skid plates for their '05 Pathfinder, and they're very glad they did.  Even with the high ground clearance of that vehicle, they do a lot of rough desert driving down there, and the skid plates have saved their vehicle a time or two.

I have a coworker who also had a 2006 Pathfinder. He didn't have the SMOD issue (short for Strawberry Milkshake of Death, the online colloquial name for the transmission/coolant issue, due to what the affected sludge looks like) but he parked it last year after the suspension mounts began rusting out. He offered it to me since my Frontier has the same drivetrain but I have nowhere to put it. The only other real issue on the 4.0 V6 is that the cam and crank position sensors tend to conk out around 100,000 miles. My Frontier is at 97,000. Hopefully Carmax changed them before they sold it to me.

The 4Runner is another used vehicle I've done a little bit of looking into.  They seem to be less prevalent than used Tacomas.  The older Tacomas tend to hold their value more than I expected.  I haven't seen enough 4Runner prices to tell if they are subject to a similar phenomenon. 

They are, but I don't think it's quite to the same extreme as the Tacoma.

[Max Rockatansky]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

Circling back to Honda sedans, I was surprised to see how far Accord sales have fallen.  The Civic had 238,661 U.S. sales in 2025 which is down from 335,384 in 2015.  The Accord sold 150,196 units in 2025 versus 355,557 in 2015. 

The same phenomenon hasn't repeated with Toyota.  The Camry sold 316,185 units in the U.S. in 2025 versus 429,355 in 2015.  The Corolla sold 248,088 units in 2025 versus 363,332 in 2015.

I would probably say the censuses opinion with automotive journalists is that the Camry is the superior mid-size sedan.  Even still, I haven't seen much bad press about the Accord. 

[Takumi]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

Circling back to Honda sedans, I was surprised to see how far Accord sales have fallen.  The Civic had 238,661 U.S. sales in 2025 which is down from 335,384 in 2015.  The Accord sold 150,196 units in 2025 versus 355,557 in 2015. 

The same phenomenon hasn't repeated with Toyota.  The Camry sold 316,185 units in the U.S. in 2025 versus 429,355 in 2015.  The Corolla sold 248,088 units in 2025 versus 363,332 in 2015.

I would probably say the censuses opinion with automotive journalists is that the Camry is the superior mid-size sedan.  Even still, I haven't seen much bad press about the Accord. 

Honda has repeatedly been shooting itself in the foot ever since the 2008 financial crisis. With the Accord, they never offered AWD on it to protect Acura TLX sales. Well, TLX sales tanked anyway and they discontinued it, but Honda still refuses to put either the 2.0T or AWD into the Accord even though they got caught with their pants down and took a massive financial loss earlier this year. A lot of people don't like the styling of the last two generations of Accord, as well. Honda recently announced they're going to continue making the current generation Accord as is until 2030 after they cancelled its planned successor, which was an EV called the 0 Saloon. It has two engine choices: the 1.5L turbo that has had numerous issues like head gasket failure and oil dilution problems, and the hybrid producing a whopping 200 HP. Essentially, it's uncompetitive and Honda refuses to change that about it. Along with the Accord, some of Honda's other models are going to continue to be produced unchanged until the end of the decade.

Honda is in deep shit, and it's even worse with Acura. For 2027 Acura will only have three models, two of which (ADX and base Integra) are based on the Civic and have the 1.5T. And zero hybrids.

[Ted$8roadFan]

Honda driver for 35+ years. The last time I was in the market for a car (2020), I knew which vehicle I would *not* buy - a Honda sedan. I had been unimpressed with both the Civic and Accord for a number of years, both for styling and simple entry and exit reasons. It didn't help that Honda has priced both vehicles such that they're not that less expensive than the HR-V and CR-V (my ultimate buy) which are more spacious and have more storage.

[interstatefan990]

Now that the Subaru Legacy is gone, automakers should really give more love to AWD sedans and make them more accessible than having to spring for upper trim levels (if it's even offered in the first place). I feel like in a lot of buyer's minds who live in harsher climates, AWD = SUV and that doesn't need to be the case. For example, I wonder what Honda is doing not offering all wheel drive at all on the Civic or Accord.

Circling back to Honda sedans, I was surprised to see how far Accord sales have fallen.  The Civic had 238,661 U.S. sales in 2025 which is down from 335,384 in 2015.  The Accord sold 150,196 units in 2025 versus 355,557 in 2015. 

Accord sales may have declined overall when you look back several years, but they've actually been experiencing a huge increase as of recently.

A lot of people don't like the styling of the last two generations of Accord, as well.

This is only partially accurate. The current gen's styling is indeed polarizing and not very well received by the public, but the last gen (10th) is actually widely beloved for its styling, maybe with the exception of its stapler-shaped taillights. In fact, some of its trims like the Sport and Touring have higher rates of wheel theft because the design is so popular.

It didn't help that Honda has priced both vehicles such that they're not that less expensive than the HR-V and CR-V (my ultimate buy) which are more spacious and have more storage.

2006 Accord: $19,225 base MSRP
2006 CRV: $22,145 base MSRP

2026 Accord: $28,395 base MSRP
2026 CRV: $30,920 base MSRP

Even though costs have gone up, they've never been very far apart in price. The difference has actually stayed relatively similar over time.

[Max Rockatansky]

2025 was the worst sales year for the Accord in the U.S. since 1979 apparently.  Up from almost completely bottoming out isn't what I'd qualify as good.

[Takumi]

I don't think the 10th gen Accord is aging all that well stylistically, if I'm honest. The taillights are indeed ugly, and I don't think the chrome bar grille looks all that good either. I think the 11th gen looks much better.

Also, I think the surge in Accord sales has more to do with the recent rise in gas prices than anything else. May was when gas prices peaked. It's long been a trend that when gas prices rise, so do car sales compared to trucks and SUVs. If Accord sales continue to grow as gas prices fall, sure, I'll think it's a trend, but right now I think it's a blip.

I do agree that Honda's offerings are expensive for what you get, and seemingly always have been. The new Prelude in particular has gotten complaints about how expensive it is for a 200 HP car, but it's actually in line with what the old ones cost when adjusted for inflation.

[kenarmy]

Circling back to Honda sedans, I was surprised to see how far Accord sales have fallen.  The Civic had 238,661 U.S. sales in 2025 which is down from 335,384 in 2015.  The Accord sold 150,196 units in 2025 versus 355,557 in 2015. 

The same phenomenon hasn't repeated with Toyota.  The Camry sold 316,185 units in the U.S. in 2025 versus 429,355 in 2015.  The Corolla sold 248,088 units in 2025 versus 363,332 in 2015.

I would probably say the censuses opinion with automotive journalists is that the Camry is the superior mid-size sedan.  Even still, I haven't seen much bad press about the Accord. 

Honda has repeatedly been shooting itself in the foot ever since the 2008 financial crisis. With the Accord, they never offered AWD on it to protect Acura TLX sales. Well, TLX sales tanked anyway and they discontinued it, but Honda still refuses to put either the 2.0T or AWD into the Accord even though they got caught with their pants down and took a massive financial loss earlier this year. A lot of people don't like the styling of the last two generations of Accord, as well. Honda recently announced they're going to continue making the current generation Accord as is until 2030 after they cancelled its planned successor, which was an EV called the 0 Saloon. It has two engine choices: the 1.5L turbo that has had numerous issues like head gasket failure and oil dilution problems, and the hybrid producing a whopping 200 HP. Essentially, it's uncompetitive and Honda refuses to change that about it. Along with the Accord, some of Honda's other models are going to continue to be produced unchanged until the end of the decade.

Honda is in deep shit, and it's even worse with Acura. For 2027 Acura will only have three models, two of which (ADX and base Integra) are based on the Civic and have the 1.5T. And zero hybrids.

Honda is always falling behind and letting others eat their lunch.. the Odyssey should have been replaced or at least had a hybrid, now the Kia Carnival is about to surpass it in sales. And the Ridgeline was never supposed to be a best seller but it's like they don't even put any effort into it. Honda had the first mass produced hybrid in the US.. and they fumbled it and the Prius took the charge while Honda kept switching between the Insight and Civic Hybrid. The current generation Accord is uninspiring. I like the new Civic, especially the hatchback, and I think it has always looked better than the corresponding Corolla.

Side-note: The Civic is outselling the Corolla by a tad this year, and the Accord recently surpassed 15 million sales.

[Takumi]

Circling back to Honda sedans, I was surprised to see how far Accord sales have fallen.  The Civic had 238,661 U.S. sales in 2025 which is down from 335,384 in 2015.  The Accord sold 150,196 units in 2025 versus 355,557 in 2015. 

The same phenomenon hasn't repeated with Toyota.  The Camry sold 316,185 units in the U.S. in 2025 versus 429,355 in 2015.  The Corolla sold 248,088 units in 2025 versus 363,332 in 2015.

I would probably say the censuses opinion with automotive journalists is that the Camry is the superior mid-size sedan.  Even still, I haven't seen much bad press about the Accord. 

Honda has repeatedly been shooting itself in the foot ever since the 2008 financial crisis. With the Accord, they never offered AWD on it to protect Acura TLX sales. Well, TLX sales tanked anyway and they discontinued it, but Honda still refuses to put either the 2.0T or AWD into the Accord even though they got caught with their pants down and took a massive financial loss earlier this year. A lot of people don't like the styling of the last two generations of Accord, as well. Honda recently announced they're going to continue making the current generation Accord as is until 2030 after they cancelled its planned successor, which was an EV called the 0 Saloon. It has two engine choices: the 1.5L turbo that has had numerous issues like head gasket failure and oil dilution problems, and the hybrid producing a whopping 200 HP. Essentially, it's uncompetitive and Honda refuses to change that about it. Along with the Accord, some of Honda's other models are going to continue to be produced unchanged until the end of the decade.

Honda is in deep shit, and it's even worse with Acura. For 2027 Acura will only have three models, two of which (ADX and base Integra) are based on the Civic and have the 1.5T. And zero hybrids.

Honda is always falling behind and letting others eat their lunch.. the Odyssey should have been replaced or at least had a hybrid, now the Kia Carnival is about to surpass it in sales. And the Ridgeline was never supposed to be a best seller but it's like they don't even put any effort into it. Honda had the first mass produced hybrid in the US.. and they fumbled it and the Prius took the charge while Honda kept switching between the Insight and Civic Hybrid. The current generation Accord is uninspiring. I like the new Civic, especially the hatchback, and I think it has always looked better than the corresponding Corolla.

Side-note: The Civic is outselling the Corolla by a tad this year, and the Accord recently surpassed 15 million sales.

The Odyssey is another model that Honda is going to make in its current form until at least 2030. The worst part is, they always do this to themselves and have done so since the 2008 financial crisis. The one time they showed some ambition was the 2017 NSX, which was a disaster PR-wise and sales-wise from start to finish. When they finally got it right with the 2022 Type S, they took their ball and went home, immediately discontinuing it. The Accord being uninspiring is also something they did to themselves. The 10th gen offered the 2.0T, which was a detuned Type R engine. By all accounts it was popular with enthusiasts, and I enjoyed how it drove when I had the chance to drive one. Night and day compared to the 1.5T. But they kept production of it artificially low so it wouldn't cannibalize Acura TLX sales, and then dropped the option for the 11th gen citing low sales that they caused themselves. With the TLX being dropped after 2025 I was hoping they would add it back but they haven't and it doesn't seem like they will. There's also the no-brainer move of offering a hybrid option on the Integra since it quite literally is a Civic chassis, but when they announced that the Integra would be produced until 2032 they notably did not mention adding a hybrid.

[Sani]

I drive a 2024 Civic Touring sedan, and while I'm pretty happy with it and have been a long-term Honda owner, I am disappointed with the direction Honda seems to be going. I especially don't like how Honda is de-contenting their cars, presumably trying to drive customers over to Acura. They removed the rear USB charge ports from the Civic refresh in 2025, for example, and the Civic doesn't come with rear vents at all, even though it does in other markets. Owners have created detailed guides on Civic forums for buying the correct parts from overseas to install rear vents themselves.

Cross-shopping against Toyota, you can get features on the equivalent Toyota that just aren't available on the Honda models, at least in North America. The Corolla Cross, for example, comes with rear vents and USB ports, but you won't find those on any trim of the HR-V. And of course, Toyota sells the Corolla Cross Hybrid, but Honda doesn't seem to have any intention of selling the HR-V with their hybrid powertrain. In Europe, though, you can buy a Honda ZR-V (essentially the same as our HR-V) with a hybrid powertrain, rear vents, rear USB, heated and ventilated seats, etc. You'd have to get an Acura ZDX to get those features in the U.S., and it still wouldn't have a hybrid option.

What are they doing? Do they really have no ability to scale up their hybrid powertrain production?

[Max Rockatansky]

I'd imagine Honda having to borrow an EV platform from GM just to get the Prologue out is pretty telling on where they are at with EVs and hybrids.  That and how aggressively they sought a merger with Nissan.  Modern Nissan isn't my cup of tea but they at least got the EV stuff figured out.

[Takumi]

I drive a 2024 Civic Touring sedan, and while I'm pretty happy with it and have been a long-term Honda owner, I am disappointed with the direction Honda seems to be going. I especially don't like how Honda is de-contenting their cars, presumably trying to drive customers over to Acura. They removed the rear USB charge ports from the Civic refresh in 2025, for example, and the Civic doesn't come with rear vents at all, even though it does in other markets. Owners have created detailed guides on Civic forums for buying the correct parts from overseas to install rear vents themselves.

Cross-shopping against Toyota, you can get features on the equivalent Toyota that just aren't available on the Honda models, at least in North America. The Corolla Cross, for example, comes with rear vents and USB ports, but you won't find those on any trim of the HR-V. And of course, Toyota sells the Corolla Cross Hybrid, but Honda doesn't seem to have any intention of selling the HR-V with their hybrid powertrain. In Europe, though, you can buy a Honda ZR-V (essentially the same as our HR-V) with a hybrid powertrain, rear vents, rear USB, heated and ventilated seats, etc. You'd have to get an Acura ZDX to get those features in the U.S., and it still wouldn't have a hybrid option.

What are they doing? Do they really have no ability to scale up their hybrid powertrain production?

They were planning to go harder on EVs starting next year, with the two Zero Series vehicles and Acura RSX coupe-SUV thing that they abruptly pulled the plug on a few months ago. So the fact that they aren't replacing them with more hybrids right off the bat is weird. It just seems like sheer incompetence at this point. (Also, I think you're talking about the ADX, not the ZDX. The ADX is the HR-V-based thing. The ZDX was discontinued and was a GM-based EV like the Prologue.) The main thing keeping me away from Toyota is that they're utterly dull to drive outside of the dedicated sporty models, and all of those dedicated sporty models have some sort of thing I don't like about the drivetrain (the GR86 having a Subaru engine that grenades itself when you turn right too quickly, the GR Corolla having a 3-cylinder, the Supra being a BMW...I don't really care that it's a BMW but if I'm buying a Toyota I don't want German car level maintenance).

I'd imagine Honda having to borrow an EV platform from GM just to get the Prologue out is pretty telling on where they are at with EVs and hybrids.  That and how aggressively they sought a merger with Nissan.  Modern Nissan isn't my cup of tea but they at least got the EV stuff figured out.

I genuinely think that Nissan's outlook is brighter than Honda's right now. Not that I think Nissan's outlook is particularly bright, but that Honda's is that bleak. I do think that Nissan's aborted merger with Honda caused them to take a good look at themselves and figure out where to go from where they were. Now they're bringing the Xterra back and have a bunch of new models coming in the next few years. Meanwhile Honda just announced they're bringing back the Element to take on the Ford Bronco Sport...in 2029.