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Author Topic: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)  (Read 39226 times)

ipeters61

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #250 on: October 29, 2019, 12:45:15 PM »

In Kent County, Delaware and Sussex County, Delaware, the combined population grew by over 42,000.  Based on the number of Delaware tags I have seen on U.S. 50 between Washington, D.C. and Anne Arundel County, Maryland during peak commute times, some of those people are commuting to and from employment in the D.C. area.

Per Google Maps...

Middletown-Warwick Rd. (the former US 301) and Main St. in Middletown: 85.5 miles

DE 8 and DE 15 in Dover to New Carrollton Metro: 81.9 miles

DE 14 and US 113 in Milford to New Carrollton Metro: 84.6 miles

The Circle in Georgetown to New Carrollton Metro: 94.7 miles

ixnay
I'm sure a few people do it for the DE tax benefits, just like PA commuters to NYC.
I've heard of it.  I only know of one direct example: someone who commutes from Camden DE to Washington every day.  The other example I know is one of is the wife of one of my former coworkers.  They live in Downtown Dover (husband worked in Dover), but they had another place on Kent Island so she could commute to DC.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #251 on: October 29, 2019, 01:45:59 PM »

In Kent County, Delaware and Sussex County, Delaware, the combined population grew by over 42,000.  Based on the number of Delaware tags I have seen on U.S. 50 between Washington, D.C. and Anne Arundel County, Maryland during peak commute times, some of those people are commuting to and from employment in the D.C. area.

Per Google Maps...

Middletown-Warwick Rd. (the former US 301) and Main St. in Middletown: 85.5 miles

DE 8 and DE 15 in Dover to New Carrollton Metro: 81.9 miles

DE 14 and US 113 in Milford to New Carrollton Metro: 84.6 miles

The Circle in Georgetown to New Carrollton Metro: 94.7 miles

ixnay
I'm sure a few people do it for the DE tax benefits, just like PA commuters to NYC.
I've heard of it.  I only know of one direct example: someone who commutes from Camden DE to Washington every day.  The other example I know is one of is the wife of one of my former coworkers.  They live in Downtown Dover (husband worked in Dover), but they had another place on Kent Island so she could commute to DC.

I understand that people move from the Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, Maryland areas to Delaware (especially Sussex County) when nearing retirement for a few reasons:

(1) No state income sales tax in Delaware.

(2) A slightly milder climate in winter.

(3) Near the Atlantic Ocean beaches.

(4) Still reasonably close to friends and families when compared to other retirement alternatives like Florida and Arizona.

Some people apparently pack up and move even before retirement, making a conscious choice to commute that far for a while.  I have spoken with several such persons. IMO, not something I would be interested in doing.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 05:21:00 PM by cpzilliacus »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #252 on: October 29, 2019, 03:33:29 PM »


(1) No state income tax in Delaware.


Actually, no state sales tax in Delaware.  Delaware actually has a fairly high state income tax to make up for it.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #253 on: October 29, 2019, 05:20:19 PM »


(1) No state income tax in Delaware.


Actually, no state sales tax in Delaware.  Delaware actually has a fairly high state income tax to make up for it.

Thank you for that.  I got sales and income taxes swapped. 
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sprjus4

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #254 on: October 29, 2019, 05:50:24 PM »

many of them living closer to the border than Elizabeth City.
They may live "closer to the border" but that doesn't mean they're closer to Hampton Roads. For instance, US-258 at the Virginia line to Downtown Norfolk is 52 miles, whereas US-17 from Elizabeth City to Downtown Norfolk is 40 miles.

As you mention, the outskirts for commuting traffic is generally anywhere from Franklin, Elizabeth City, and Barco. Some people opt to travel farther (I knew someone years back that commuted from Edenton to Norfolk daily, 70 miles each way), but not many.

Of the gateways to/from North Carolina, the largest for commuters is by far VA-168. Moyock, which is right over the state line, has been growing significantly over the past decade, and it's drawn significant numbers of commuters per day. Elizabeth City is farther, but it too has been growing significantly, and it too has drawn significant numbers of commuters per day.

Of the border crossings, the traffic counts are as follows -

1. VA-168 - 26,000 AADT
2. US-17 - 14,000 AADT
3. US-258 - 5,800 AADT
4. US-13 - 5,400 AADT
5. VA-32 - 3,800 AADT

One of the major problems with VA-168 is that 26,000 AADT utilizes the 4-lane divided highway into the state, but at the toll road, 16,000 AADT opts to take 2-lane Battlefield Blvd to avoid the toll, where only 10,000 AADT stays on the toll road, even with the 75-cent commuter toll. Congestion on Battlefield Blvd is a significant issue. The toll road definitely has the capacity to handle all 26,000 AADT, but it would have to be toll-free to make that happen.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #255 on: October 29, 2019, 06:19:07 PM »

Of the gateways to/from North Carolina, the largest for commuters is by far VA-168. Moyock, which is right over the state line, has been growing significantly over the past decade, and it's drawn significant numbers of commuters per day. Elizabeth City is farther, but it too has been growing significantly, and it too has drawn significant numbers of commuters per day.
The Newport News shipyards have thousands of employees, and heading due south of there would oriented on the corridors of VA-32 and US-258.

Of the border crossings, the traffic counts are as follows -
1. VA-168 - 26,000 AADT
2. US-17 - 14,000 AADT
3. US-258 - 5,800 AADT
4. US-13 - 5,400 AADT
5. VA-32 - 3,800 AADT
One of the major problems with VA-168 is that 26,000 AADT utilizes the 4-lane divided highway into the state, but at the toll road, 16,000 AADT opts to take 2-lane Battlefield Blvd to avoid the toll, where only 10,000 AADT stays on the toll road, even with the 75-cent commuter toll. Congestion on Battlefield Blvd is a significant issue. The toll road definitely has the capacity to handle all 26,000 AADT, but it would have to be toll-free to make that happen.
I count 19 secondary road crossings as well, east of the US-258 crossing.  While each would carry less than a typical primary highway, they would all add up.

How much of the VA-168/NC-168 traffic is commuters, so how much of that AADT is due to weekend peaks for traffic for the Outer Banks, a popular travel destination?
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #256 on: October 29, 2019, 11:15:23 PM »


Of the border crossings, the traffic counts are as follows -

1. VA-168 - 26,000 AADT
2. US-17 - 14,000 AADT
3. US-258 - 5,800 AADT
4. US-13 - 5,400 AADT
5. VA-32 - 3,800 AADT

One of the major problems with VA-168 is that 26,000 AADT utilizes the 4-lane divided highway into the state, but at the toll road, 16,000 AADT opts to take 2-lane Battlefield Blvd to avoid the toll, where only 10,000 AADT stays on the toll road, even with the 75-cent commuter toll. Congestion on Battlefield Blvd is a significant issue. The toll road definitely has the capacity to handle all 26,000 AADT, but it would have to be toll-free to make that happen.
I don't see that as a problem at all. If people don't like the congestion, they can pay the toll. No need to do anything else with the infrastructure.

sprjus4

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #257 on: October 30, 2019, 06:34:50 AM »

How much of the VA-168/NC-168 traffic is commuters, so how much of that AADT is due to weekend peaks for traffic for the Outer Banks, a popular travel destination?
According to VDOT's traffic counts, the AAWT (Average Annual Weekday Traffic) is 25,000 at the state line, then north of the split, it's 16,000 on Battlefield Blvd, and 9,600 on the toll road. North of Hillcrest Pkwy when the toll road ends, the AAWT spikes from 9,600 to 34,000.

The heavy peak tourist traffic is mostly on summer Saturdays along with some on Sunday, where the toll is $8 one-way. Those counts are not factored into the AAWT count, only AADT, which there's not much of a difference.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 06:38:23 AM by sprjus4 »
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sprjus4

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #258 on: October 30, 2019, 06:50:13 AM »

I don't see that as a problem at all. If people don't like the congestion, they can pay the toll. No need to do anything else with the infrastructure.
VA-168 Business or Battlefield Blvd is intended as a local roadway, and with the Hickory High School / Hickory Middle School complex right in the middle, there's a -significant- amount of local traffic that uses the roadway daily. Issue is, when you mix this with thru traffic, it creates significant congestion and lengthy delays, most notably at the signals in front of the school, Centerville Tpke, and Benefit Rd. Almost daily during PM rush hour, there's at least a 2-mile backup southbound from the VA-168 / Hillcrest Pkwy interchange along Hillcrest Pkwy & Battlefield Blvd South down to the Centerville Tpke traffic load. During the AM rush hour, due to the heavy amount of local traffic heading into the school complex from the north, the long amount of green time given to northbound commuter toll-avoiding traffic results in lengthy southbound backups into the school complex taking 10-15 minutes to even enter going through at least 3-5 full signal phases.

The issue here isn't the fact that thru traffic (a majority of it new people to the area moving into Moyock knowing full-well there's a toll road on the main route to/from Hampton Roads) has to pay, it's the fact that the heavy traffic load detouring around the toll places a burden on local traffic who has no desire / need to use the toll road.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #259 on: October 30, 2019, 07:02:51 AM »

Of the gateways to/from North Carolina, the largest for commuters is by far VA-168. Moyock, which is right over the state line, has been growing significantly over the past decade, and it's drawn significant numbers of commuters per day. Elizabeth City is farther, but it too has been growing significantly, and it too has drawn significant numbers of commuters per day.
The Newport News shipyards have thousands of employees, and heading due south of there would oriented on the corridors of VA-32 and US-258.

Of the border crossings, the traffic counts are as follows -
1. VA-168 - 26,000 AADT
2. US-17 - 14,000 AADT
3. US-258 - 5,800 AADT
4. US-13 - 5,400 AADT
5. VA-32 - 3,800 AADT
One of the major problems with VA-168 is that 26,000 AADT utilizes the 4-lane divided highway into the state, but at the toll road, 16,000 AADT opts to take 2-lane Battlefield Blvd to avoid the toll, where only 10,000 AADT stays on the toll road, even with the 75-cent commuter toll. Congestion on Battlefield Blvd is a significant issue. The toll road definitely has the capacity to handle all 26,000 AADT, but it would have to be toll-free to make that happen.
I count 19 secondary road crossings as well, east of the US-258 crossing.  While each would carry less than a typical primary highway, they would all add up.

How much of the VA-168/NC-168 traffic is commuters, so how much of that AADT is due to weekend peaks for traffic for the Outer Banks, a popular travel destination?


When I worked at Norfolk Naval Shipyard 1991-93 (located in Portsmouth near downtown), my supervisor commuted from south of the south end of NC 343.  Another came from Zuni way up US 460.  I knew of a couple people who lived in Whaleyville (US 13 near NC line) and there were a few who came from across the CBBT and also York County.  Some of them tried to stay on back shifts as much as they could to have better traffic conditions.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #260 on: October 30, 2019, 07:13:42 AM »

I don't see that as a problem at all. If people don't like the congestion, they can pay the toll. No need to do anything else with the infrastructure.
VA-168 Business or Battlefield Blvd is intended as a local roadway, and with the Hickory High School / Hickory Middle School complex right in the middle, there's a -significant- amount of local traffic that uses the roadway daily. Issue is, when you mix this with thru traffic, it creates significant congestion and lengthy delays, most notably at the signals in front of the school, Centerville Tpke, and Benefit Rd. Almost daily during PM rush hour, there's at least a 2-mile backup southbound from the VA-168 / Hillcrest Pkwy interchange along Hillcrest Pkwy & Battlefield Blvd South down to the Centerville Tpke traffic load. During the AM rush hour, due to the heavy amount of local traffic heading into the school complex from the north, the long amount of green time given to northbound commuter toll-avoiding traffic results in lengthy southbound backups into the school complex taking 10-15 minutes to even enter going through at least 3-5 full signal phases.

The issue here isn't the fact that thru traffic (a majority of it new people to the area moving into Moyock knowing full-well there's a toll road on the main route to/from Hampton Roads) has to pay, it's the fact that the heavy traffic load detouring around the toll places a burden on local traffic who has no desire / need to use the toll road.

If they toll the local road, that'll encourage people to stay on the highway.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #261 on: October 30, 2019, 10:02:22 AM »

How much of the VA-168/NC-168 traffic is commuters, so how much of that AADT is due to weekend peaks for traffic for the Outer Banks, a popular travel destination?
According to VDOT's traffic counts, the AAWT (Average Annual Weekday Traffic) is 25,000 at the state line, then north of the split, it's 16,000 on Battlefield Blvd, and 9,600 on the toll road. North of Hillcrest Pkwy when the toll road ends, the AAWT spikes from 9,600 to 34,000.
The heavy peak tourist traffic is mostly on summer Saturdays along with some on Sunday, where the toll is $8 one-way. Those counts are not factored into the AAWT count, only AADT, which there's not much of a difference.
Their definition of AAWDT:  Average Annual Weekday Traffic.  The estimate of typical traffic over the period of one year for the days between Monday through Thursday.
QW: Quality of AAWDT: 
A Average of Complete Continuous Count Data
B Average of Selected Continuous Count Data
F Factored Short Term Traffic Count Data
G Factored Short Term Traffic Count Data with Growth Element
M Manual Uncounted Estimate
N AAWDT of Similar Neighboring Traffic Link
O Provided by External Source 
. . . . . .

In 2018 the two are almost equal --
Border:  26,000 AADT and 25,000 AAWDT
North of business route start: 
  10,000 AADT and 9,600 AAWDT for VA-168
  15,000 AADT and 16,000 AAWDT for Bus. VA-168

The border figures are quality "A" and the others are "G", which is a lower quality estimate.

I wonder about data that doesn't count Friday as a weekday, and I also wonder about regional commuting patterns given that the Norfolk/H.R. area has work trip generators that have large numbers of employees and substantial weekend employment such as military bases, shipyards and marine terminals.
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 10:05:03 AM by Beltway »
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #262 on: October 30, 2019, 05:00:20 PM »

The daily traffic congestion on VA Bus 168 in Chesapeake is just another example of why toll roads HURT traffic congestion, and not help it. 

Orlando is the best example of this.  It's an economy built on low wage tourist jobs, limited mass transit, only two options for getting around:  spend half your paycheck on tolls or hurt the engine, brakes, transmission of your car from driving in mile after mile of stop-and-go traffic.

Chesapeake has a little bit better job market than Orlando, but like much of the Southeast, people are so anti-toll they are more than willing to sit in traffic congestion.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #263 on: October 30, 2019, 05:08:59 PM »

I grew up in Caroline County, Maryland (near Preston).  My Dad was a Bay Bridge commuter for 20 yrs (1985-2005), and still in 2019 I have a few friends that live in Caroline and even a couple in Dorchester County that make the commute across the bridge.  Most work in the medical field and have jobs near Annapolis.  The pay is a lot higher on the west side of the bridge.  Lower living costs on east side.

My Dad was able to make it work for 20 yrs, because he was a firefighter, (most firefighters on the Eastern Shore are volunteer position)

He left home in Preston by 5-5:15 AM, and was across the bridge by 6 AM. (beating rush hour)  He was never late in 20 yrs of work.

He left work at 7 AM in the morning, most of the traffic was heading the opposite way and he was home by 8:15-8:30.

He only worked 2-3 days a week, but these were 24 hours shifts, one shift on, two shift off, usually they followed that pattern.
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sprjus4

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #264 on: October 30, 2019, 05:24:26 PM »

The daily traffic congestion on VA Bus 168 in Chesapeake is just another example of why toll roads HURT traffic congestion, and not help it.
Generally, I'd say it actually has remained static.

The AADT was 15,000 - 16,000 before the toll road opened on Battlefield Blvd, and still remains that way today. Except, the entire corridor overall (both VA-168 and Battlefield Blvd combined) has gone from 15,000 - 16,000 to 26,000, mostly due to increasing growth in the southern part of the city and mainly growth in Moyock.

It certainly helps during peak weekends, because despite the high $8 toll, a majority of those New York, New Jersey, and other out-of-state plates gladly fly down the toll road at 70+ mph and have no desire to shunpike (An $8 toll to someone from the northeast isn't all that abnormal or expensive).

So while traffic congestion is certainly an issue on Battlefield Blvd and something the city seems to ignore, the toll road hasn't hurt, it just hasn't been utilized to its full extent. Only some of the benefits have come (some commuters use it, and a significant amount of long-distance use it), it hasn't had it's full potential shown.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #265 on: November 04, 2019, 10:32:41 AM »

I grew up in Caroline County, Maryland (near Preston).  My Dad was a Bay Bridge commuter for 20 yrs (1985-2005), and still in 2019 I have a few friends that live in Caroline and even a couple in Dorchester County that make the commute across the bridge.  Most work in the medical field and have jobs near Annapolis.  The pay is a lot higher on the west side of the bridge.  Lower living costs on east side.

My Dad was able to make it work for 20 yrs, because he was a firefighter, (most firefighters on the Eastern Shore are volunteer position)

He left home in Preston by 5-5:15 AM, and was across the bridge by 6 AM. (beating rush hour)  He was never late in 20 yrs of work.

He left work at 7 AM in the morning, most of the traffic was heading the opposite way and he was home by 8:15-8:30.

He only worked 2-3 days a week, but these were 24 hours shifts, one shift on, two shift off, usually they followed that pattern.
I know someone who has a brother who lived in Linkwood in Dorchester County, and had a job at Shock Trauma in Baltimore. He would drive up U.S. 50 through Cambridge, Easton and to the U.S. 301 merge, over the Bay Bridge, through Annapolis, and then I-97 to I-695 to MD-295.

I can relate to Eastern Shore volunteer firefighters because here in Harford County, to the northeast of Baltimore, it's all volunteer as well.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #266 on: November 07, 2019, 01:57:32 PM »

I know someone who has a brother who lived in Linkwood in Dorchester County, and had a job at Shock Trauma in Baltimore. He would drive up U.S. 50 through Cambridge, Easton and to the U.S. 301 merge, over the Bay Bridge, through Annapolis, and then I-97 to I-695 to MD-295.

I can relate to Eastern Shore volunteer firefighters because here in Harford County, to the northeast of Baltimore, it's all volunteer as well.

One of the lead engineers assigned by MDOT/SHA to oversee the reconstruction of the Wilson Bridge
was an experienced construction manager, but had purchased a retirement home in Salisbury and
moved there, rather far from the WWB construction site.

But his bosses made a deal to keep him working on the WWB, letting him set his own hours to
some extent (he would leave home at a brutally early hour most days, as the drive is better than
120 miles one way) and on most Fridays he was able to do his work from the MDOT/SHA office
in Salisbury instead of the long, long drive to Oxon Hill. 
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #267 on: November 11, 2019, 10:49:19 AM »

I briefly worked with someone who commuted by bus from Cambridge, Maryland, to downtown DC. She didn’t last long!
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