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Author Topic: Delaware  (Read 282982 times)

seicer

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1075 on: November 08, 2018, 07:01:29 AM »

I think that we should take some of this to the Fictional Highways board. I'm having a hard time keeping up with this.
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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1076 on: November 08, 2018, 07:56:28 AM »

Delaware has a well connected road system. It also has a lot of traffic. Another short bypass or two isn't going to suddenly make the state congestion free.
Cmon jeff thats like saying a beltway wouldn’t help philly, Delaware needs a connecting highway aka Beltway. Too many people are going in circles to main points such as Wilmington-Newark-Kirkwood-New castle & Bear.
Philadelphia has a metro area of 6 million, Delaware doesn't even have a population of 1 million (and New Castle County is 560,000).  Hartford has a metro area of 1.2 million, with similar characteristics to Wilmington, and it doesn't have a beltway and, outside of rush hour, it's tolerable.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1077 on: November 08, 2018, 11:53:25 AM »

Cmon jeff thats like saying a beltway wouldn’t help philly

...saying a college town of 30,000+ people doesn't need a beltway is absolutely nothing like saying a metropolitan area of several million people doesn't need a beltway.

Too many people are going in circles to main points such as Wilmington-Newark-Kirkwood-New castle & Bear.

And how do you suppose this exactly?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 11:55:52 AM by Alex4897 »
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Tonytone

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« Reply #1078 on: November 08, 2018, 12:04:48 PM »

Cmon jeff thats like saying a beltway wouldn’t help philly

...saying a college town of 30,000+ people doesn't need a beltway is absolutely nothing like saying a metropolitan area of several million people doesn't need a beltway.

Too many people are going in circles to main points such as Wilmington-Newark-Kirkwood-New castle & Bear.

And how do you suppose this exactly?
The fact that I drive thru all these areas everyday. Tells me alot about how the traffic is flowing. Do you know how many people are just driving thru harmony road or red mill just to get to 273 then 95 or vice versa to kirkwood? They arent even making any stops but have to drive  thru the area because there is no limited access freeway in the area. The best bet for deldot in the future is to upgrade 273 to limited access status. But maybe they already have that idea in mind. Sure Newark is small. But If you look at the statistics from the beltway project from the 60s/70’s, that I posted on here. Traffic was bad at that point as-well. You mean to tell me its lightened up? Then UD is building more campus, with a new train station coming along as well. Whats gonna happen to the 4 & elkton road? Are they gonna add another lane on both roads? Are they gonna grade separate the already bad 896/4 ?


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« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:10:00 PM by Tonytone »
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seicer

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1079 on: November 08, 2018, 12:14:10 PM »

They don't. Not every road needs to be a freeway. Or 55 MPH. If your life choices dictate you living far from your destinations, from work, from school - then perhaps you should live closer. Delaware has far more pressing matters with the limited funds it has.
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Tonytone

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« Reply #1080 on: November 08, 2018, 12:18:35 PM »

They don't. Not every road needs to be a freeway. Or 55 MPH. If your life choices dictate you living far from your destinations, from work, from school - then perhaps you should live closer. Delaware has far more pressing matters with the limited funds it has.
I cannot believe you would say that to me. LIVE CLOSER? I already do. Im just pointing out the fact of thru traffic & local traffic. & hold on. Isnt Middletown building a brand new highway & that towns population isnt half of what New Castle is, they are building it for thru traffic to get of the streets right?


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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1081 on: November 08, 2018, 12:38:46 PM »

They don't. Not every road needs to be a freeway. Or 55 MPH. If your life choices dictate you living far from your destinations, from work, from school - then perhaps you should live closer. Delaware has far more pressing matters with the limited funds it has.
I cannot believe you would say that to me. LIVE CLOSER? I already do. Im just pointing out the fact of thru traffic & local traffic. & hold on. Isnt Middletown building a brand new highway & that towns population isnt half of what New Castle is, they are building it for thru traffic to get of the streets right?

CHILL. OUT. No one has been able to figure out what you've been rambling on about for the last 3 pages. Take a step back and, my suggestion, take a break for 2 days and come back.

ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1082 on: November 08, 2018, 12:41:57 PM »

The fact that I drive thru all these areas everyday. Tells me alot about how the traffic is flowing. Do you know how many people are just driving thru harmony road or red mill just to get to 273 then 95 or vice versa to kirkwood? They arent even making any stops but have to drive  thru the area because there is no limited access freeway in the area. The best bet for deldot in the future is to upgrade 273 to limited access status. But maybe they already have that idea in mind. Sure Newark is small. But If you look at the statistics from the beltway project from the 60s/70’s, that I posted on here. Traffic was bad at that point as-well. You mean to tell me its lightened up? Then UD is building more campus, with a new train station coming along as well. Whats gonna happen to the 4 & elkton road? Are they gonna add another lane on both roads? Are they gonna grade separate the already bad 896/4 ?
I've driven through the 896/4 intersection in rush hour (7am and 5:30pm).  I never thought driving through that intersection was that bad.  If anything, DE-72 southbound in the evening rush hour looks painful, but outside of rush hour it's totally fine.  It may seem like a good idea to add more lanes/more roads/etc. but typically that brings about even more sprawl.  That's what happened to Dover in the 1950s when they built the Dover bypass (US-13 at the time) and in Central Connecticut with the Berlin Turnpike (US-5/CT-15), necessitating another major highway to take their place (DE-1 and I-91, respectively).
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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1083 on: November 08, 2018, 01:31:10 PM »

The fact that I drive thru all these areas everyday. Tells me alot about how the traffic is flowing. Do you know how many people are just driving thru harmony road or red mill just to get to 273 then 95 or vice versa to kirkwood? They arent even making any stops but have to drive  thru the area because there is no limited access freeway in the area.

Limited access highways are not silver bullets for every congestion problem ever, nor are they suitable solutions for a couple of rush-hour-congested local roadways. You're complaining about traffic using these roads to get to 273, but this is exactly how local roads are supposed to work. Sure, some added capacity at key intersections could be (and already is) on the order for hot spots but slamming a freeway bypass through every local roadway FritzOwl style is not a good, realistic, or long-term solution.

I lived in the Red Mill / Kirkwood / Harmony area you're complaining about for 16 years, slamming a freeway through here is as overkill as overkill gets.

Quote
Are they gonna grade separate the already bad 896/4 ?

What alternate reality are you living in...?
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seicer

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1084 on: November 08, 2018, 02:26:34 PM »

US 13's four-lane widening south towards Dover helped drive a lot of the Philly/Wilmington unmitigated sprawl south decades ago. Because there were no planning agencies in place then, residential developments were haphazard and unconcentrated - and along major arterials. The consequence of this was the deterioration of US 13's level of service, especially as Ocean City, MD developed as a larger tourist destination.

DE 1 helped bypass much of this to Dover but just furthered sprawl much further down the state. What was a mostly rural state with an urban core around Wilmington is now sprawled out down to Dover and along the ocean. I can't help but find that sad in comparison and wished that they had developed the growth boundaries that Maryland has to preserve its rural areas.
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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1085 on: November 08, 2018, 02:50:11 PM »

DE 1 helped bypass much of this to Dover but just furthered sprawl much further down the state. What was a mostly rural state with an urban core around Wilmington is now sprawled out down to Dover and along the ocean. I can't help but find that sad in comparison and wished that they had developed the growth boundaries that Maryland has to preserve its rural areas.
I was wondering why the Eastern Shore of Maryland seems so much less sprawling than Delaware.  I thought it was just because getting down there from Philadelphia was so much more difficult (US-301) than the Delaware part (DE-1) of Delmarva.  I remember seeing on Wikipedia that the population of Kent County MD is 18% of that of Kent County DE! (even though they're right next to each other)  And it seems like there's new construction everywhere around Dover and Camden...and south.  It's difficult since I do generally like that things here are less congested.

I think part of the issue is that Delaware is very focused on its tax friendly reputation and wants to stretch that as far as possible, but not living in Delaware for terribly long, I can't say that for sure...
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Beltway

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1086 on: November 08, 2018, 03:46:30 PM »

Philadelphia has a metro area of 6 million, Delaware doesn't even have a population of 1 million (and New Castle County is 560,000).  Hartford has a metro area of 1.2 million, with similar characteristics to Wilmington, and it doesn't have a beltway and, outside of rush hour, it's tolerable.

I've always thought that Delaware did very, very well to get an Interstate bypass (I-495) of Wilmington, and that was allocated all the way back in the 1955 "Yellow Book".  If that had been denied (and the planners back then easily could have) then presumably DelDOT would have built I-95 thru Wilmington with 6 lanes and left it at that, as an 8-lane widening looks difficult or impossible in the downtown section.  Instead with the opening of I-495 in 1977, there is a 10-lane corridor with one urban Interstate and one bypass Interstate, between the Delaware Turnpike and the PA border.  I-495 also provides direct access to the Port of Wilmington, something that I-95 does not.

I-295 also bypasses Wilmington, but that highway had already been built in 1951 to connect US-13 across the river to the NJ Turnpike.  But still the planners allocated both Interstate highways, one a bypass of SE PA (separate from the NJ Turnpike) and one a bypass of Wilmington only, in addition to I-95 thru the downtown.  Pretty generous provision of highways, IMHO.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 03:51:17 PM by Beltway »
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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1087 on: November 08, 2018, 04:10:42 PM »

Philadelphia has a metro area of 6 million, Delaware doesn't even have a population of 1 million (and New Castle County is 560,000).  Hartford has a metro area of 1.2 million, with similar characteristics to Wilmington, and it doesn't have a beltway and, outside of rush hour, it's tolerable.

I've always thought that Delaware did very, very well to get an Interstate bypass (I-495) of Wilmington, and that was allocated all the way back in the 1955 "Yellow Book".  If that had been denied (and the planners back then easily could have) then presumably DelDOT would have built I-95 thru Wilmington with 6 lanes and left it at that, as an 8-lane widening looks difficult or impossible in the downtown section.  Instead with the opening of I-495 in 1977, there is a 10-lane corridor with one urban Interstate and one bypass Interstate, between the Delaware Turnpike and the PA border.  I-495 also provides direct access to the Port of Wilmington, something that I-95 does not.

I-295 also bypasses Wilmington, but that highway had already been built in 1951 to connect US-13 across the river to the NJ Turnpike.  But still the planners allocated both Interstate highways, one a bypass of SE PA (separate from the NJ Turnpike) and one a bypass of Wilmington only, in addition to I-95 thru the downtown.  Pretty generous provision of highways, IMHO.
Thanks for mentioning it that way, Beltway.  I hadn't really thought of 495, since my mind was more centered on the whole concept of "beltways," and not bypasses in general.  Not only does 495 provide an alternate route around Wilmington, it serves as a good alternate route into the city (at least downtown) via US-13.

I don't really think of I-295 as much of a Wilmington bypass, but that's largely because 495 is literally called the "Wilmington Bypass."  But it makes sense for much longer distance traffic.  Also, I-295 doesn't provide as good of direct access to Wilmington as 495 (not that it's necessary), though I guess DE-9 would be the best option for that.
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Beltway

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1088 on: November 08, 2018, 04:22:26 PM »

But think of how much more congested that northern Delaware would be if I-295 didn't exist.
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seicer

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1089 on: November 08, 2018, 04:25:53 PM »

Or Chester and Philadelphia. If someone (can't remember who?) was complaining of the six-lanes through the gulch of Chester now, dumping I-295/NJ Turnpike traffic onto it would have been a nightmare.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1090 on: November 08, 2018, 05:53:48 PM »

I guess Tony wasn't around for the good ol' days when 273 had the gap in it between 4 and Ogletown Road, forcing traffic thru the 10' clearance Avon Underpass which flooded every time it drizzled.  The resulting roadway is a curvy, poor sightlined road, with gems such as this Jersey-style jughandle ( https://goo.gl/maps/ZWFD2wrhcuy ) that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.  And it brought about a fair amount of the congestion points on 273 that is being complained about (especially around Harmony Road), showing that simply building a roadway or bypass doesn't completely relieve congestion, and can bring about new congestion points.

Compared to its neighboring states, I've always thought that Delaware has done a good job of building roads and widening them as necessary. Unfortunately no matter how much planning and right of way you have , eventually you make it to a point where there is just no more available unless you start buying up a lot of frontage and property. If you want to see a state that didn't build roadways, cross into New Jersey. We had a long list of roads and highways that were never built.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:46:03 PM by jeffandnicole »
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1091 on: November 08, 2018, 05:59:21 PM »

I guess Tony wasn't around for the good ol' days when 273 had the gap in it between 4 and Ogletown Road, forcing traffic thru the 10' clearance Avon Underpass which flooded every time it drizzled.  The resulting roadway is a curvy, poor sightlined road, with gems such as this Jersey-style jughandle ( https://goo.gl/maps/ZWFD2wrhcuy ) that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.  And it brought about a fair amount of the congestion points on 273 that is being complained about (especially around Harmony Road), showing that simply building a roadway or bypass doesn't completely relieve congestion, and can bring about new congestion points.
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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1092 on: November 08, 2018, 06:11:04 PM »

But think of how much more congested that northern Delaware would be if I-295 didn't exist.
Yes, you are right.  I should have been more clear, but that's what I meant by my "longer distance" comment.  I tend to come from Pennsylvania more which is why I didn't really think of 295 much.
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Beltway

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1093 on: November 08, 2018, 06:29:03 PM »

But think of how much more congested that northern Delaware would be if I-295 didn't exist.
Yes, you are right.  I should have been more clear, but that's what I meant by my "longer distance" comment.  I tend to come from Pennsylvania more which is why I didn't really think of 295 much.

It was a general comment, not directed at you.  Just part of my comments about the sufficiency or insufficiency of the highway system in northern Delaware.

Delaware and New Jersey had excellent foresight to partner to build the bridge, something that the NJ Turnpike could connect to, to bypass Trenton, Philadelphia and Wilmington, and the bridge (later paralleled to 8 lanes) could connect to another freeway (I-295) which would also bypass the area.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1094 on: November 08, 2018, 10:58:04 PM »

I just returned home from a short drive into Maryland, and I must say that DelDOT did a remarkably poor job handling a planned lane closure on I-95 at DE 141/US 202 (which coincidently is at a crucial point in the I-95/I-495/I-295 sequence of splits).

All four lanes carrying through I-95/I-495 traffic were closed—apparently to accommodate work underneath the DE 141/US 202 overpass. So all I-95/I-495 traffic was forced to merge into the two lanes marked for I-295, and vehicles came to a crawl back to the Christiana Mall and beyond. But I’m not complaining about the backup; that’s perhaps unavoidable if the lane closure was necessary.

What I found troublesome was the lack of any temporary guide signage whatsoever. The only signage I saw merely warned of the impending lane closure. As I passed the point where the I-95 and I-295 carriageways begin to separate, I began to worry that there was no path back to I-95 and that I’d have to make a quick exit onto US 13 and detour through Wilmington to avoid an unscheduled (and unwanted) trip to New Jersey. But again, no detour signs were posted.

Then as I was looking up ahead at the US 13 signage preparing to detour, I noticed a car, two vehicles in front of me, shoot through a gap in the construction barrels, across an emergency turnaround, and back into the I-95 carriageway. Looking further, I could see a few more vehicles further ahead on I-95, and way off in the distance, I could make out an “END CONSTRUCTION” sign. So I quickly concluded that these weren’t lawbreakers—just a ridiculously poorly signed work area—and I shot through the gap.

I’d really be interested to hear whoever at DelDOT was responsible for the handling at traffic controls through this work area attempt to offer a defense.
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Beltway

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1095 on: November 09, 2018, 12:07:51 AM »

I have designed maintenance of traffic layouts for Interstate highway projects, back in the days when I worked in traffic engineering.  One of the 6-lane widening projects on I-95 in Hanover County VA. 

It takes a lot of engineering thought and planning to do something like that in the Delaware project where several miles of transitions and lane closures need to be designed and detailed on plan sheets.

Then the resident engineer and the contractor needs to follow the plans and set it up exactly right on the ground.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:10:52 AM by Beltway »
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1096 on: November 09, 2018, 12:41:45 AM »

I have designed maintenance of traffic layouts for Interstate highway projects, back in the days when I worked in traffic engineering.  One of the 6-lane widening projects on I-95 in Hanover County VA. 

It takes a lot of engineering thought and planning to do something like that in the Delaware project where several miles of transitions and lane closures need to be designed and detailed on plan sheets.

Then the resident engineer and the contractor needs to follow the plans and set it up exactly right on the ground.
Typically it's the contractor trying to shortcut things... or else formal plans were never developed... which I find hard to believe but you see so many things out there...

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1097 on: November 09, 2018, 06:00:43 AM »

I just returned home from a short drive into Maryland, and I must say that DelDOT did a remarkably poor job handling a planned lane closure on I-95 at DE 141/US 202 (which coincidently is at a crucial point in the I-95/I-495/I-295 sequence of splits).

All four lanes carrying through I-95/I-495 traffic were closed—apparently to accommodate work underneath the DE 141/US 202 overpass. So all I-95/I-495 traffic was forced to merge into the two lanes marked for I-295, and vehicles came to a crawl back to the Christiana Mall and beyond. But I’m not complaining about the backup; that’s perhaps unavoidable if the lane closure was necessary.

What I found troublesome was the lack of any temporary guide signage whatsoever. The only signage I saw merely warned of the impending lane closure. As I passed the point where the I-95 and I-295 carriageways begin to separate, I began to worry that there was no path back to I-95 and that I’d have to make a quick exit onto US 13 and detour through Wilmington to avoid an unscheduled (and unwanted) trip to New Jersey. But again, no detour signs were posted.

Then as I was looking up ahead at the US 13 signage preparing to detour, I noticed a car, two vehicles in front of me, shoot through a gap in the construction barrels, across an emergency turnaround, and back into the I-95 carriageway. Looking further, I could see a few more vehicles further ahead on I-95, and way off in the distance, I could make out an “END CONSTRUCTION” sign. So I quickly concluded that these weren’t lawbreakers—just a ridiculously poorly signed work area—and I shot through the gap.

I’d really be interested to hear whoever at DelDOT was responsible for the handling at traffic controls through this work area attempt to offer a defense.

Ah, that elusive gap in the median!  Brian is referring to this: https://goo.gl/maps/ifN7kGp3gF32 (GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/ZhRLfTP4wsn ) which was built specifically for this construction project.  However, it lacks any striping and is usually just blocked by some barrels, as shown in the GSV link.  I've never seen it used myself, probably because I haven't been on 95 late at night.

The closure he describes is somewhat hard to sign.  They need to convey what's going on, with as few words as possible.  You also have to account for the stupidity factor and the GPS factor - both want to keep left, even though the left lanes are closed. 

Probably the best thing that could've been done is by utilizing the variable message sign on 95 north of Rt. 1, stating "I-95/495, Follow Detour".  Delaware has a very poor history though of using those signs in any meaningful way other than with cute messages or vague messages ("Slow Traffic Ahead"). 

Just off the top of my head, DelDOT could've done this:  After Rt. 1, the most important thing is to taper down the 5 thru lanes to the two right lanes.  Then, after the 95/295 split (ie, the point of no return), have signage that states "95/495, Keep Left", then 95/495, and the squiggley left sign, such as a W1-4 sign.  I specifically mention the point of no return ( here: https://goo.gl/maps/kugqfuDUKfk ), so that you don't have people cutting thru the barrels if they see a premature 'Keep Left' sign)

It's a bit tricky to do, and not a lot of room to do it.  I think they sometimes overly rely on the thought of most people are probably going to be locals and just know what to do, or motorists will see what's happening and just make the transition.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1098 on: November 09, 2018, 07:26:20 PM »

I just returned home from a short drive into Maryland, and I must say that DelDOT did a remarkably poor job handling a planned lane closure on I-95 at DE 141/US 202 (which coincidently is at a crucial point in the I-95/I-495/I-295 sequence of splits).

All four lanes carrying through I-95/I-495 traffic were closed—apparently to accommodate work underneath the DE 141/US 202 overpass. So all I-95/I-495 traffic was forced to merge into the two lanes marked for I-295, and vehicles came to a crawl back to the Christiana Mall and beyond. But I’m not complaining about the backup; that’s perhaps unavoidable if the lane closure was necessary.

What I found troublesome was the lack of any temporary guide signage whatsoever. The only signage I saw merely warned of the impending lane closure. As I passed the point where the I-95 and I-295 carriageways begin to separate, I began to worry that there was no path back to I-95 and that I’d have to make a quick exit onto US 13 and detour through Wilmington to avoid an unscheduled (and unwanted) trip to New Jersey. But again, no detour signs were posted.

Then as I was looking up ahead at the US 13 signage preparing to detour, I noticed a car, two vehicles in front of me, shoot through a gap in the construction barrels, across an emergency turnaround, and back into the I-95 carriageway. Looking further, I could see a few more vehicles further ahead on I-95, and way off in the distance, I could make out an “END CONSTRUCTION” sign. So I quickly concluded that these weren’t lawbreakers—just a ridiculously poorly signed work area—and I shot through the gap.

I’d really be interested to hear whoever at DelDOT was responsible for the handling at traffic controls through this work area attempt to offer a defense.

They were setting that up as I drove through last night.  I saw a "Detour Ahead" sign down on the ground and thought it might have been for that.  However, you're right that I didn't see any signs on the 295 side indicating the crossover for 95/495.  The press releases indicate when the crossover is being used but I was surprised even the VMS by the mall didn't mention anything about the work (just an anti-texting message).
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Tonytone

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« Reply #1099 on: November 10, 2018, 12:57:06 PM »

Newport Exit is now open again on I-95 NB. I wonder will they remove the double Newport exit that is connected to the New Castle/Basin Road exit? If they removed that middle connecting road & traffic light, there would be no backups on 141. Did they build that exit, because 295 NB backs up? & What causes the slowdown on 295 NB if construction is completed? 


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