Scariest Road Elements (not bridges)

[webny99]

Not driving on the shoulder might rival artificially low speed limits for the "law" that's most routinely ignored in New York. When you have cases like this (shoulder specifically widened to allow passing of turning vehicles) and this (signalized intersection with extra-wide shoulders but no turning lanes), the LOS of the intersection relies on shoulder usage, and those that refuse to use the shoulder are actually an obstruction to traffic. It's therefore quite common to see stopped cars that are going straight but refuse to use the shoulder get passed on the shoulder themselves in this situation.

[Rothman]

Not driving on the shoulder might rival artificially low speed limits for the "law" that's most routinely ignored in New York. When you have cases like this (shoulder specifically widened to allow passing of turning vehicles) and this (signalized intersection with extra-wide shoulders but no turning lanes), the LOS of the intersection relies on shoulder usage, and those that refuse to use the shoulder are actually an obstruction to traffic. It's therefore quite common to see stopped cars that are going straight but refuse to use the shoulder get passed on the shoulder themselves in this situation.

Meh.  Those situations don't seem the same as someone flying down the shoulder to get around a long line of backed up traffic on a freeway.

[kphoger]

Those situations don't seem the same as someone flying down the shoulder to get around a long line of backed up traffic on a freeway.

Heh.  I remember the time that my roommate got a ticket for driving on the shoulder to get past a traffic jam on the Tri-State in Chicagoland.  He told me, —It was worth it, though.  If I could do it over again, I still would.

[Henry]

Even today, I'm terrified of the Rapid Fire ramps in downtown Chicago. Left exits and entrances on freeways have always been the bane of my existence.

[Rothman]

Even today, I'm terrified of the Rapid Fire ramps in downtown Chicago. Left exits and entrances on freeways have always been the bane of my existence.

Heh.  I find the updated configuration much more pleasant than it was in the early 1990s.  I remember my then-girlfriend's parents driving through that mess and thinking, "This is insane."

[webny99]

When you have cases like this (shoulder specifically widened to allow passing of turning vehicles) and this (signalized intersection with extra-wide shoulders but no turning lanes), the LOS of the intersection relies on shoulder usage, and those that refuse to use the shoulder are actually an obstruction to traffic. It's therefore quite common to see stopped cars that are going straight but refuse to use the shoulder get passed on the shoulder themselves in this situation.

Meh.  Those situations don't seem the same as someone flying down the shoulder to get around a long line of backed up traffic on a freeway.

Yeah, that was basically my point given how rare freeway shoulder usage is rare around here.

I think the worst I've ever seen was on the Mass Pike in Springfield, when accident had traffic backed up for miles. There was a stream of traffic using the shoulder at freeway speeds with cars intermittently pulling into the fray from the stopped main lanes. It's a wonder there weren't several more accidents.

[on_wisconsin]

Cramped clover-leaf interchanges without proper C/D lanes...

[interstatefan990]

Not driving on the shoulder might rival artificially low speed limits for the "law" that's most routinely ignored in New York. When you have cases like this (shoulder specifically widened to allow passing of turning vehicles) and this (signalized intersection with extra-wide shoulders but no turning lanes), the LOS of the intersection relies on shoulder usage, and those that refuse to use the shoulder are actually an obstruction to traffic. It's therefore quite common to see stopped cars that are going straight but refuse to use the shoulder get passed on the shoulder themselves in this situation.

Meh.  Those situations don't seem the same as someone flying down the shoulder to get around a long line of backed up traffic on a freeway.

This is a big problem in the Washington, DC area. I've stayed down there a few times and the congestion gets so bad during peak hours, some cars will shamelessly drive on the shoulder for the entire corridor, passing hordes of traffic. And of course, the police there seldom do anything about it.

[Scott5114]

Also the 35 MPH sharp curve on I-90 in downtown Cleveland. The scary part isn't even driving it yourself so much as hoping that every other schmuck on the road slows down enough to stay in their lane.

Hilariously, I can't even stay in the carriageway around that curve on GSV.

[Tendies]

Cramped clover-leaf interchanges without proper C/D lanes...

I-5 and CA-152... almost took myself out right there a few months ago. It comes up on you REAL FAST, and signage is rather poor. No marked merge lane either, just dumps you onto the mainline, where traffic is often flowing at 80+, unless you have a semi right next to you, which isnt any better.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ngW1VxX1ewH3uL897

Not driving on the shoulder might rival artificially low speed limits for the "law" that's most routinely ignored in New York. When you have cases like this (shoulder specifically widened to allow passing of turning vehicles) and this (signalized intersection with extra-wide shoulders but no turning lanes), the LOS of the intersection relies on shoulder usage, and those that refuse to use the shoulder are actually an obstruction to traffic. It's therefore quite common to see stopped cars that are going straight but refuse to use the shoulder get passed on the shoulder themselves in this situation.

I recall seeing a forum post, not on here, about someone turning right from the shoulder at an intersection setup exactly like this, but with two thru lanes instead of just one. Guy got a ticket for it, and the forum told him to pound sand. It was in California, not sure where or what road beyond that. Also depends whether "right edge of roadway" is interpreted to mean the physical pavement, or the legal roadway, which technically ends at the fog line, not including the shoulder.

[Max Rockatansky]

Is fog line a standard term everywhere or just here?  I know what meant given I frequent 41 and 198 during the worst of Tule Fog season.

Speaking of scary road elements, how about really bad Tule Fog?  Less than 100 feet of visibility will get the heart pumping in some situations, especially out on farm roads.

[fillup420]

Generally speaking, I find 4 lanes undivided to be potentially scary. If you have to make a left turn, there are 3 lanes of traffic that can collide with your vehicle, the two going your way and the oncoming left lane. And most of the time, everyone is speeding.

Heavy agree with this. Charlotte NC has several of these in the suburbs, and yes turning left is super sketch and everyone speeds. One particular section (NC 16 Providence Rd) with lots of houses and secondary neighborhood entrances, the city tried a solution that prohibited left turns during peak hours in the opposite direction. So during morning rush, left turns were prohibited in the outbound direction. and in the afternoon, inbound. That didn't work, as no one listened to the rules, no good place for a u-turn, and there was little enforcement.

Personally i think that road should just be converted to 2 lanes with a center turn, plus bike lanes.

[sbeaver44]

Not too much bothers me, but lack of guardrails where there are steep drop-offs does.  The Moki Dugway on UT 261 is perhaps the best example I have personally experienced.

[Max Rockatansky]

Not too much bothers me, but lack of guardrails where there are steep drop-offs does.  The Moki Dugway on UT 261 is perhaps the best example I have personally experienced.

Barriers would have made it difficult for trucks to traverse the corners when it was an active mining haul road.  By dirt road standards the Dugway is pretty wide all things considered.

[pderocco]

Not too much bothers me, but lack of guardrails where there are steep drop-offs does.  The Moki Dugway on UT 261 is perhaps the best example I have personally experienced.

That never bothered me because it's not really skinny, and there are wide sections at each hairpin. I still don't get why it isn't paved, though.

[Rothman]

Not too much bothers me, but lack of guardrails where there are steep drop-offs does.  The Moki Dugway on UT 261 is perhaps the best example I have personally experienced.

That never bothered me because it's not really skinny, and there are wide sections at each hairpin. I still don't get why it isn't paved, though.

Could just be because it is remote and paving something that steep would require "frequent" maintenance as the pavement naturally buckles.  Easy to take care of in Pittsburgh, Duluth, or San Francisco, but not in the middle of nowhere.

[bugo]

The old ramp from 51st Street to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa was scary. Now, 51st is one way eastbound, and the ramp to get onto eastbound I-44 is east of Lewis.

[Tendies]

Is fog line a standard term everywhere or just here?  I know what meant given I frequent 41 and 198 during the worst of Tule Fog season.

Speaking of scary road elements, how about really bad Tule Fog?  Less than 100 feet of visibility will get the heart pumping in some situations, especially out on farm roads.

I'm not sure. I've never seen the term used in informal discussions, only in reference to law and road marking definitions. Most people just use something like "shoulder line".

I do know that California intentionally breaks the fog line in advance of exits to provide additional notice in high fog conidtions. Here's an example: https://maps.app.goo.gl/184QxCLnZUBbBPocA

[webny99]

Is fog line a standard term everywhere or just here? 

First to admit I had never heard the term.

[Dirt Roads]

Is fog line a standard term everywhere or just here?

First to admit I had never heard the term.

In the Chemical Valley of West Virginia, we used the term "fogbank".  As previously described in M.T.R (and perhaps here in AARoads), there was a tendency to have extremely thick fog hanging over both the Ohio River and the Kanawha River on many clear days in the early Spring and the late Fall.  Sometimes the fog seemed to stay right above the river up to its banks on both sides (hence the term "fogbank"); but othertimes the fog filled the entire valley between the hillsides.  Quite often, you could see over the top of the fogbank when driving westbound down from the Cross Lanes side east of the approach to the bridge looking over the 40th Street hollow towards the John Amos power plant.

For many years, the DOH had "Dense Fog" warning signs on I-64 in approach to the infamous "Green Bridge" (the old Donald Legg bridge) between the Nitro and St. Albans exits (now the new twin Donald Legg bridges).  Many folks made the mistake of not slowing down before entering "thie fogbank".  Visibility was never more than 50 feet and traffic always came down to about 20 MPH during rush hour, leading to oh-so-many crashes on the bridge. 

The shocker for everyone that I was when the big ethanol plant in South Point, Ohio (on the Ohio River kinda across from Kenova) shut down (in the late 1980s, IIRC).  The very next morning there was no fogbank along the Kanawha.  Nor the rest of Spring, nor the next Fall, nor the whole next year from what my folks said.  All of the old-timers in West Virginia always assumed that all forms of fog "came down from the mountain", meaning the clouds backed up against the tops of the Allegheny Mountains and then slid downhill on the west side (ergo, the Appalachian Plateau) into the gorge and the valleys and eventually pushed their way both downriver and up into the hollows.  Reading the tea leaves here, one has to suspect that the South Point ethanol plant was the primary cause of what we called "thie fogbank". 

Back to the power plant.  A lot of old-timers also thought that the smokestack and the cooling towers at John Amos were huge contributors to the fog issues along the Kanawha.  When the fogbank went away, they quit "thinking like that".  Many times I've seen low-hanging fog from the John Amos plant when there was no fog conditions elsewhere.  Just like any cloud, when the temperature and relative humidity bring it down to ground level "it's-uh gonna be a big ole' fog".  You can get a great view of this phenomenon from the same perspective described above.

By the way, the smokestack for the South Point ethanol plant was finally demolished in 2023.

[Max Rockatansky]

Is fog line a standard term everywhere or just here?  I know what meant given I frequent 41 and 198 during the worst of Tule Fog season.

Speaking of scary road elements, how about really bad Tule Fog?  Less than 100 feet of visibility will get the heart pumping in some situations, especially out on farm roads.

I'm not sure. I've never seen the term used in informal discussions, only in reference to law and road marking definitions. Most people just use something like "shoulder line".

I do know that California intentionally breaks the fog line in advance of exits to provide additional notice in high fog conidtions. Here's an example: https://maps.app.goo.gl/184QxCLnZUBbBPocA

If anyone needs clarification, this is the kind of fog line I was referring to.

[Rothman]

Is fog line a standard term everywhere or just here?

First to admit I had never heard the term.

In the Chemical Valley of West Virginia, we used the term "fogbank".  As previously described in M.T.R (and perhaps here in AARoads), there was a tendency to have extremely thick fog hanging over both the Ohio River and the Kanawha River on many clear days in the early Spring and the late Fall.  Sometimes the fog seemed to stay right above the river up to its banks on both sides (hence the term "fogbank"); but othertimes the fog filled the entire valley between the hillsides.  Quite often, you could see over the top of the fogbank when driving westbound down from the Cross Lanes side east of the approach to the bridge looking over the 40th Street hollow towards the John Amos power plant.

For many years, the DOH had "Dense Fog" warning signs on I-64 in approach to the infamous "Green Bridge" (the old Donald Legg bridge) between the Nitro and St. Albans exits (now the new twin Donald Legg bridges).  Many folks made the mistake of not slowing down before entering "thie fogbank".  Visibility was never more than 50 feet and traffic always came down to about 20 MPH during rush hour, leading to oh-so-many crashes on the bridge. 

The shocker for everyone that I was when the big ethanol plant in South Point, Ohio (on the Ohio River kinda across from Kenova) shut down (in the late 1980s, IIRC).  The very next morning there was no fogbank along the Kanawha.  Nor the rest of Spring, nor the next Fall, nor the whole next year from what my folks said.  All of the old-timers in West Virginia always assumed that all forms of fog "came down from the mountain", meaning the clouds backed up against the tops of the Allegheny Mountains and then slid downhill on the west side (ergo, the Appalachian Plateau) into the gorge and the valleys and eventually pushed their way both downriver and up into the hollows.  Reading the tea leaves here, one has to suspect that the South Point ethanol plant was the primary cause of what we called "thie fogbank". 

Back to the power plant.  A lot of old-timers also thought that the smokestack and the cooling towers at John Amos were huge contributors to the fog issues along the Kanawha.  When the fogbank went away, they quit "thinking like that".  Many times I've seen low-hanging fog from the John Amos plant when there was no fog conditions elsewhere.  Just like any cloud, when the temperature and relative humidity bring it down to ground level "it's-uh gonna be a big ole' fog".  You can get a great view of this phenomenon from the same perspective described above.

By the way, the smokestack for the South Point ethanol plant was finally demolished in 2023.

Did/Doesn't I-77 have fog warnings south of I-64?  Maybe I'm mixing it up with Virginia south of I-81...

[kphoger]

Re:  driving on the shoulder during heavy traffic...

If there's enough pavement for enough vehicles to drive a long distance on the shoulder—then I kind of just think they're making efficient use of the space.  I understand that shoulders are for breakdowns and such, but maybe that stretch of highway should just have an extra lane instead.

[Rothman]

Re:  driving on the shoulder during heavy traffic...

If there's enough pavement for enough vehicles to drive a long distance on the shoulder—then I kind of just think they're making efficient use of the space.  I understand that shoulders are for breakdowns and such, but maybe that stretch of highway should just have an extra lane instead.

And then they come up on an off-ramp where someone exiting doesn't think tney have to check the shoulder and *crash.*

[kphoger]

And then they come up on an off-ramp where someone exiting doesn't think tney have to check the shoulder and *crash.*

I'm not really saying it's safe, or that it's a good idea.  I just think that, when there's unused space wide enough for cars, and then cars use that space, it's not all that shocking to me.