Entering/Leaving the US (and other countries)

[Max Rockatansky]

Heh, I said pretty much exactly that in January 2013 on trip to Montreal.  CBSA pulled me into a room after my plane landed and grilled me about my trip for about a half hour.  Apparently it seemed strange that a 30 year old male American would take a sightseeing trip to Montreal alone during the winter.

FWIW, I think the CBSA agent I spoke was pretty annoyed with me by the time we were done talking.  I assume that he was hoping for someone who actually acting suspiciously.  The agent seemed mostly frustrated the majority of the time we spoke.  I didn't have anywhere to be the day I landed so I was in a pretty good mood.

It helps to have friends there -- I have some in Toronto, who are Canadian. And others in NY near Buffalo. Provides extra good reasons for crossing the border.

I do also, but I'm not going to get unnecessary details about my trips unless I really need to.

[kphoger]

Simplifying things to "meeting old friends" or "sightseeing the area" may make things easier, while still being true

When my pastor and I were coming back from Mexico in 2021 or so, you still needed a negative Covid-19 test in order to fly into the USA.  Because of that, I had planned that we would take intercity buses from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, then cross the border by taxi, and then fly out of Laredo the next morning—which is exactly what we did.  At the US checkpoint, the CBP officers asked us where we were coming from and headed to, and what the reason for our trip was.  For whatever reason, I decided to be vague with my answer, and said we'd been "visiting friends".  Apparently, this threw up some red flags:

1.  We were claiming to have arrived by bus from almost 200 miles away, which is probably not something very many gringos do.

2.  My stated reason for our trip was notably vague.

So they pulled the taxi over into secondary inspection.  We took out our backpacks from the trunk and put them up on the tables.  And that probably threw up another red flag:

3.  We were claiming to be returning to Kansas from a week-long trip in the interior of Mexico, yet we had no luggage except for one backpack each (this was because two of our flights were on 50-seat aircraft, which sometimes gate-check larger carry-on luggage).

Inspection took a while.  After the physical inspection of our bags and the taxi, they spent some time in the office too.  The agents told the driver that there was an issue with the taxi's registration, but he didn't understand how that could be true, considering he'd already made a couple of cross-border trips that day without a hiccup.  So yeah, I'm pretty sure that my being vague cost us all about 35 to 45 minutes in secondary.

[LilianaUwU]

Heh, I said pretty much exactly that in January 2013 on trip to Montreal.  CBSA pulled me into a room after my plane landed and grilled me about my trip for about a half hour.  Apparently it seemed strange that a 30 year old male American would take a sightseeing trip to Montreal alone during the winter.

FWIW, I think the CBSA agent I spoke was pretty annoyed with me by the time we were done talking.  I assume that he was hoping for someone who actually acting suspiciously.  The agent seemed mostly frustrated the majority of the time we spoke.  I didn't have anywhere to be the day I landed so I was in a pretty good mood.

It helps to have friends there -- I have some in Toronto, who are Canadian. And others in NY near Buffalo. Provides extra good reasons for crossing the border.

You got friends???

[kalvado]

Interesting conversation. I will say that, in general, I've never really understood the need to check my luggage when I exit a country. I suppose for the countries that restrict currency or antiquities from leaving the country, that makes sense. But I've also found, largely, that those are the countries with the least thorough search process. I do understand having a passport check so you know that someone is leaving your jurisdiction, however. It is strange that the US doesn't do that.  In theory they're getting the info from the airlines, but you'd think they'd want to do the verification themselves.

One case i can think of:
https://www.futura-sciences.com/en/chinese-network-accused-of-spying-to-steal-major-us-agricultural-secret_19590/

[hotdogPi]

Interesting conversation. I will say that, in general, I've never really understood the need to check my luggage when I exit a country. I suppose for the countries that restrict currency or antiquities from leaving the country, that makes sense. But I've also found, largely, that those are the countries with the least thorough search process. I do understand having a passport check so you know that someone is leaving your jurisdiction, however. It is strange that the US doesn't do that.  In theory they're getting the info from the airlines, but you'd think they'd want to do the verification themselves.

One case i can think of:
https://www.futura-sciences.com/en/chinese-network-accused-of-spying-to-steal-major-us-agricultural-secret_19590/

This shouldn't have been secret in the first place. Open it to everyone.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Having to potentially justify travel is one reason why my roadgeek clinches are much more sparse in Canada than in the US, despite the fact that Ontario and Québec both border NY.  I can't think of how to explain a purely roadgeeking trip to customs in a way that wouldn't have them find me suspicious just for how unusual things like clinching highways are.  Already I've had to explain the concept of roadmeets twice when crossing the border, and in great detail too - once to CBSA when I crossed over for an afternoon in college for what amounted to a mini-meet (to be fair, this was my first time crossing on my own and also having substantial interactions with customs at all - prior crossings all being in family/school groups where someone else did the talking - so I made several mistakes and can think of several answers where I didn't phrase something the best way or gave more information than was needed), and once to CBP where I passed through Canada on the way to the Michigan City roadmeet and got intensely grilled on my travel plans upon returning to the US, because they found the fact that I crossed the border into Michigan at all to be extremely suspicious.

To be fair, trying to explain anything that goes on in this hobby to a border agent is likely to induce bewilderment.

Honestly, from my own experience, don't tell any of these things to any law enforcement. My own personal police incident wasn't at a border, but that cop quickly seized on what I told him about roadgeeking as "abnormal behavior" in order to escalate the situation. My assumption was, be honest, be friendly, and they'll let me go like every other traffic stop I had had. And I was badly mistaken.

[kalvado]

Interesting conversation. I will say that, in general, I've never really understood the need to check my luggage when I exit a country. I suppose for the countries that restrict currency or antiquities from leaving the country, that makes sense. But I've also found, largely, that those are the countries with the least thorough search process. I do understand having a passport check so you know that someone is leaving your jurisdiction, however. It is strange that the US doesn't do that.  In theory they're getting the info from the airlines, but you'd think they'd want to do the verification themselves.

One case i can think of:
https://www.futura-sciences.com/en/chinese-network-accused-of-spying-to-steal-major-us-agricultural-secret_19590/

This shouldn't have been secret in the first place. Open it to everyone.

Those genetic references are a huge IP thing, bring major profits and allow political control over agriculture. Love it or hate it, it is a national interest of US thing.
That is before equally huge set of export control  regulations kick in.

[Max Rockatansky]

Having to potentially justify travel is one reason why my roadgeek clinches are much more sparse in Canada than in the US, despite the fact that Ontario and Québec both border NY.  I can't think of how to explain a purely roadgeeking trip to customs in a way that wouldn't have them find me suspicious just for how unusual things like clinching highways are.  Already I've had to explain the concept of roadmeets twice when crossing the border, and in great detail too - once to CBSA when I crossed over for an afternoon in college for what amounted to a mini-meet (to be fair, this was my first time crossing on my own and also having substantial interactions with customs at all - prior crossings all being in family/school groups where someone else did the talking - so I made several mistakes and can think of several answers where I didn't phrase something the best way or gave more information than was needed), and once to CBP where I passed through Canada on the way to the Michigan City roadmeet and got intensely grilled on my travel plans upon returning to the US, because they found the fact that I crossed the border into Michigan at all to be extremely suspicious.

To be fair, trying to explain anything that goes on in this hobby to a border agent is likely to induce bewilderment.

Honestly, from my own experience, don't tell any of these things to any law enforcement. My own personal police incident wasn't at a border, but that cop quickly seized on what I told him about roadgeeking as "abnormal behavior" in order to escalate the situation. My assumption was, be honest, be friendly, and they'll let me go like every other traffic stop I had had. And I was badly mistaken.

Being alone on trips out of your area (especially with younger men) tends to draw enforcement attention.  I'm familiar with the Nebraska story you are referencing regarding being pulled over.  The CBSA story in Montreal I was talking about the previous page has a pretty similar vibe.

[LilianaUwU]

Anyways, no matter what you'll try to tell cops they WILL assume the worst of you. There's a reason most people with a brain think all cops are bastards.

[Molandfreak]

Having to potentially justify travel is one reason why my roadgeek clinches are much more sparse in Canada than in the US, despite the fact that Ontario and Québec both border NY.  I can't think of how to explain a purely roadgeeking trip to customs in a way that wouldn't have them find me suspicious just for how unusual things like clinching highways are.  Already I've had to explain the concept of roadmeets twice when crossing the border, and in great detail too - once to CBSA when I crossed over for an afternoon in college for what amounted to a mini-meet (to be fair, this was my first time crossing on my own and also having substantial interactions with customs at all - prior crossings all being in family/school groups where someone else did the talking - so I made several mistakes and can think of several answers where I didn't phrase something the best way or gave more information than was needed), and once to CBP where I passed through Canada on the way to the Michigan City roadmeet and got intensely grilled on my travel plans upon returning to the US, because they found the fact that I crossed the border into Michigan at all to be extremely suspicious.

To be fair, trying to explain anything that goes on in this hobby to a border agent is likely to induce bewilderment.

Honestly, from my own experience, don't tell any of these things to any law enforcement. My own personal police incident wasn't at a border, but that cop quickly seized on what I told him about roadgeeking as "abnormal behavior" in order to escalate the situation. My assumption was, be honest, be friendly, and they'll let me go like every other traffic stop I had had. And I was badly mistaken.

I fully expected and would have understood why I would have gotten secondaried when I made my return trip from Toronto over Lake Superior, returning to the US at TH-61. It makes no geographical sense to go that way.

Of course, it helped that I had some memorabilia from CN Tower within arms' reach, but I still found the fact that I was just let through without any further questions interesting.

[Max Rockatansky]

Anyways, no matter what you'll try to tell cops they WILL assume the worst of you. There's a reason most people with a brain think all cops are bastards.

People (and by proxy police) can think whatever they want of me.  Actually proving things in a way that can somehow be enforced is far more difficult. 

Most police detectives typically use a derivative of Reid interrogation techniques.  I've found them be unnecessarily heavy handed compared to softer/less antagonistic methods like Wicklander.  I can't really speak to what techniques are used with border enforcement agencies.

Really though, I can't really say I hold much of a strong opinion about policing practices one way another.  When I was younger I wanted to be a police officer and even had Criminal Justice as a major in college.  The last department that offered me a job was Arizona DPS and that was a long time ago.  I might be interested in throwing in an application packet after again once I hit my maximum tenure at my current job.

Although, some of the Border Patrol officers I used to run onto while overlanding in southern Arizona seemed to be having an interesting time of things.  It was always a little strange coming up on one of their trucks in places like El Camino Del Diablo or Ironwood Forest National Monument. 

[vdeane]

Honestly, from my own experience, don't tell any of these things to any law enforcement. My own personal police incident wasn't at a border, but that cop quickly seized on what I told him about roadgeeking as "abnormal behavior" in order to escalate the situation. My assumption was, be honest, be friendly, and they'll let me go like every other traffic stop I had had. And I was badly mistaken.

The question is, what do you do if they ask something for which you don't have a more typical answer?  In addition to all the trouble a lie would cause if it's discovered, I'm terrible at lying to begin with.  So many of my trips around the country are pure roadgeeking (or close enough that only discussing non-roadgeeking aspects would leave a ton of holes).  Having to make sure they're far enough from pure roadgeeking that I can discuss the non-roadgeeking aspects and not seem like I'm leaving stuff out if asked for details is one of the reasons I haven't been to Canada more often than I have.

[kphoger]

... most people with a brain think all cops are bastards.

Geez, going through life with a mindset like yours must make a person seriously unhappy all the time.  News flash:  a lot of people who disagree with you about things have brains.  The other side of ________ (fill in the blank with most any commonly debated issue you want) isn't entirely populated by stupid or evil people.

[Rothman]

I've had my car briefly searched once coming back from Canada just going over and coming back at Thousand Islands.  That's the only bad experience I've had anywhere.

Never had any problem cutting across to Michigan from Buffalo and back.  "Cutting across to Michigan" and "Headed back home" has been quite sufficient.

No need to sweat it.

[TheCatalyst31]

Honestly, from my own experience, don't tell any of these things to any law enforcement. My own personal police incident wasn't at a border, but that cop quickly seized on what I told him about roadgeeking as "abnormal behavior" in order to escalate the situation. My assumption was, be honest, be friendly, and they'll let me go like every other traffic stop I had had. And I was badly mistaken.

The question is, what do you do if they ask something for which you don't have a more typical answer?  In addition to all the trouble a lie would cause if it's discovered, I'm terrible at lying to begin with.  So many of my trips around the country are pure roadgeeking (or close enough that only discussing non-roadgeeking aspects would leave a ton of holes).  Having to make sure they're far enough from pure roadgeeking that I can discuss the non-roadgeeking aspects and not seem like I'm leaving stuff out if asked for details is one of the reasons I haven't been to Canada more often than I have.

I usually bring a printed itinerary with me on longer road trips in case I lose phone coverage (and because it's safer to check while driving), and it may have saved my bacon the last time I drove into Canada. The border guard seemed a little suspicious of my plans, possibly because I was only going to be there a few hours to drive from Port Huron to Detroit, and I forgot the name of the park I was going to birdwatch in, so I picked up my itinerary to check the name. She then demanded to see the itinerary and asked if I made it myself and if I always make them, but I think that convinced her I was just a weird nerd and not someone nefarious.

[Max Rockatansky]

... most people with a brain think all cops are bastards.

Geez, going through life with a mindset like yours must make a person seriously unhappy all the time.  News flash:  a lot of people who disagree with you about things have brains.  The other side of ________ (fill in the blank with most any commonly debated issue you want) isn't entirely populated by stupid or evil people.

Me personally I've never seen the world as being this one of extremes that a lot people seem to believe it to be.  It gets a little frustrating sometimes seeing that mindset spill into these discussions. 

[Molandfreak]

I view border politics as being within the forum's remit because they are an essential part of travel. Broader discussion of police ethics, not as much. But I am glad this discussion has mostly gone well.

[Beltway]

I've had my car briefly searched once coming back from Canada just going over and coming back at Thousand Islands.  That's the only bad experience I've had anywhere.
Never had any problem cutting across to Michigan from Buffalo and back.  "Cutting across to Michigan" and "Headed back home" has been quite sufficient.
No need to sweat it.

Many people assume a car search means a quick glance with a flashlight, but in reality, once consent is given, officers may conduct a full-blown forensic-style inspection that can involve:
-- Removing door panels, seats, and interior trim
-- Opening dashboards, glove compartments, and center consoles
-- Inspecting under carpets, headliners, and spare tire wells
-- Using tools to pry open compartments or hidden areas
-- Deploying drug-sniffing dogs or mobile scanning equipment

And yes -- you're responsible for the damage, even if nothing illegal is found. Most departments aren't liable for cosmetic or structural harm caused during a consensual search.

If he pushes it and says it will take only a few minutes, you could say something like --

"I understand, but I still don't consent to a search. I've seen how even quick searches can cause major damage -- and thorough ones can take over an hour. I can't afford that disruption or repair cost. I'm not trying to be difficult -- I'm just protecting my property."

No warrant, no probable cause -- no search.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

(AI slop deleted)

You can't refuse a search at a border.

[kphoger]

You can't refuse a search at a border.

Or, if you do, then they'll just bring over a drug-sniffing dog who will "indicate" something by breathing funny or scratching its balls in an unusual way, and then they have probably cause.

[Beltway]

You can't refuse a search at a border.

Or, if you do, then they'll just bring over a drug-sniffing dog who will "indicate" something by breathing funny or scratching its balls in an unusual way, and then they have probably cause.

What is "probably cause"?

[Max Rockatansky]

You can't refuse a search at a border.

Or, if you do, then they'll just bring over a drug-sniffing dog who will "indicate" something by breathing funny or scratching its balls in an unusual way, and then they have probably cause.

What is "probably cause"?

Something impleasably probably.

[kphoger]

What is "probably cause"?

It's when they probably have probable cause.

Or it's a typo.

[Beltway]

What is "probably cause"?

It's when they probably have probable cause.
Or it's a typo.

Must be ...

There is no legal concept of "when they probably have probable cause." 

[JayhawkCO]

I've had my car briefly searched once coming back from Canada just going over and coming back at Thousand Islands.  That's the only bad experience I've had anywhere.

Never had any problem cutting across to Michigan from Buffalo and back.  "Cutting across to Michigan" and "Headed back home" has been quite sufficient.

No need to sweat it.

I've been to a lot of countries. The only bad immigration experiences I've had were both in Canada.

The first time was a road trip through the Eastern US and Canada when I was 21, and when crossing from Port Huron, we got pulled out of the car and they searched it with a fine-toothed comb for probably an hour and a half before we were let go.


For the second one, I found a cheap ticket once from Sacramento to Hong Kong on Air Canada, flying through Vancouver. When I got to YVR, I was detained for a couple of hours asking why I was going to Hong Kong (because it was a cheap trip and I wanted to go) and why I was going via Canada (because said trip was only valid on Air Canada).

I've had logistical headaches at plenty of land borders or super long lines at plenty of airport immigration queues, but never the assumption of misdeeds like I did in Canada.

That said, since that time, I've been to Canada several times and not had an issue. Maybe I'm in the system as someone with good behavior now.