Ohio Turnpike to be Privatized?

[Sykotyk]

US 20-US250-US30, or US30 all the way, US6-OH53-OH2, etc. So many ways to bypass it.

The problem with the thought on removing the tolls to increase people showing up in Ohio is that the majority of the toll traffic is from out-of-state drivers passing through (the road barely skims any urban areas). It gets close to Toledo, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, but never quite gets within the urban area where commuters will generally take it.

Add in the fact that more people taking the road (in your hypothesis) will also increase the wear and tear the road experiences and increase the amount of money needed to upkeep up. At the same time, the state still receives gas tax when someone buys fuel and drives the toll road in addition to the toll.

What's killing the area is the loss of the factory jobs oversees and menial jobs to the south and west where 'new land' is cheaper and they've yet to hit the wall when their infrastructure starts to falter. Through in the fact that only the insurance/healthcare industry can prop them up explains the fervor in protecting the leaches to bleed us dry.

It's the last thing keeping most any formerly industrial older city alive (look at Pittsburgh).

A $10 toll to drive 232 miles is not stopping people from living here, working here, relocating here, etc.

[3467]

Well said . Its a valuable asset and the people of Ohio should keep it. Its cheap for a trip across the state.
I have no problem with somthing minor like teh Chicaho Skyway or allowing some new private roads but to give up major interstates like the turnpike or the Illinois Tollway -no way

[mukade]

After reading about the situation in Indiana, privatization is a bad way to go.

Can you be specific why the Indiana situation was bad? From what I can tell, the Toll Road is finally being widened from Gary to Hammond unlike when the state ran it. With the money, Indiana is rebuilding half of I-465, I-69 from Evansville north, US 31 freeway in Carmel/Westfield, Kokomo, and Plymouth to South Bend, US 24 freeway from Fort Wayne to Ohio, SR 25 expressway from Logansport to Lafayette, US 231 expressway from I-64 to Kentucky, and many other smaller projects. I don't really see a down side. Especially because the Toll Road never made a profit when the state ran it.

Indiana got their money when the economy was good. They're building new roads when costs are low (so far). I am not sure that Ohio would get a good deal given the current economic conditions and the proximity of parallel freeways, though.

[mightyace]

It's not like the Ohio Turnpike is difficult to avoid either.

Especially since US 30 is nearly all freeway or expressway grade all the way from I-71 in Ohio to I-65 in Indiana.

[Sykotyk]

After reading about the situation in Indiana, privatization is a bad way to go.

Can you be specific why the Indiana situation was bad? From what I can tell, the Toll Road is finally being widened from Gary to Hammond unlike when the state ran it. With the money, Indiana is rebuilding half of I-465, I-69 from Evansville north, US 31 freeway in Carmel/Westfield, Kokomo, and Plymouth to South Bend, US 24 freeway from Fort Wayne to Ohio, SR 25 expressway from Logansport to Lafayette, US 231 expressway from I-64 to Kentucky, and many other smaller projects. I don't really see a down side. Especially because the Toll Road never made a profit when the state ran it.

Indiana got their money when the economy was good. They're building new roads when costs are low (so far). I am not sure that Ohio would get a good deal given the current economic conditions and the proximity of parallel freeways, though.

Because Indiana is greatly skimping on the upkeep of the road already there. Potholes are now a major problem this year when they never had that problem before. The Izoom lanes have had problems not reading sensors and therefore not opening the gate arms. Which take forever for one of the few workers (if there is one) to go open the gate manually. Which results in people, I've seen numerous times, backing out of the toll lane to go to another lane to try.

Yet, that problem persists, what, two years later?

They're trying to turn a profit on a road that before was designed to breakeven.

The only way to do it is to cut corners.

[mukade]

After reading about the situation in Indiana, privatization is a bad way to go.

Can you be specific why the Indiana situation was bad? From what I can tell, the Toll Road is finally being widened from Gary to Hammond unlike when the state ran it. With the money, Indiana is rebuilding half of I-465, I-69 from Evansville north, US 31 freeway in Carmel/Westfield, Kokomo, and Plymouth to South Bend, US 24 freeway from Fort Wayne to Ohio, SR 25 expressway from Logansport to Lafayette, US 231 expressway from I-64 to Kentucky, and many other smaller projects. I don't really see a down side. Especially because the Toll Road never made a profit when the state ran it.

Indiana got their money when the economy was good. They're building new roads when costs are low (so far). I am not sure that Ohio would get a good deal given the current economic conditions and the proximity of parallel freeways, though.

Because Indiana is greatly skimping on the upkeep of the road already there. Potholes are now a major problem this year when they never had that problem before. The Izoom lanes have had problems not reading sensors and therefore not opening the gate arms. Which take forever for one of the few workers (if there is one) to go open the gate manually. Which results in people, I've seen numerous times, backing out of the toll lane to go to another lane to try.

Yet, that problem persists, what, two years later?

They're trying to turn a profit on a road that before was designed to breakeven.

The only way to do it is to cut corners.

I don't know if I buy that. First, there are potholes every year, and this year is a very bad year for potholes everywhere in the upper Midwest. I just drove the Toll Road from I-65 to the Skyway last week after the snow. It is a mess where ITR is widening it, but then again I-465 is a huge mess where it is being widened. How do you avoid that? I-65 south of US 231 is an example of a road that really needs rebuilding. The toll road did not seem too bad to me - when the state controlled it was it really better?

As for the iZoom lanes, I was inbound to Chicago around 4:00pm so I was going the better way. At that time, I saw no backups either way at the toll booths. That said, I don't like being forced to stop when I own a tag, but that is a remnant of when the state built it. Don't blame ITR for that.

With regard to cutting corners, every agency wants to minimize cost. ITR will lose a chunk of business to I-94, US 30, and I-70 and if things get really bad, so they will keep it up. Just seeing that they are actually spending money to widen the toll road (something the state did not do), tells me they will do an adequate job.

[Landshark]

The problem with the thought on removing the tolls to increase people showing up in Ohio is that the majority of the toll traffic is from out-of-state drivers passing through (the road barely skims any urban areas). It gets close to Toledo, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, but never quite gets within the urban area where commuters will generally take it.

More the reason to remove the toll.  You will import more $ into the state from the out of state drivers.

The region needs to remove its human push factors.  The excuses above for the region's decline are laughable.  More freedom elsewhere, that's why the region is hurting.  Freedom of movement is a big freedom, remove those tolls!

Again: tolled mainlines = rust belt.  My guess is the mentality of areas that accept excessive taxation on mobility also support excessive taxation/regulation in other areas, limiting freedom and pushing folks to freer pastures. 

[Brandon]

The problem with the thought on removing the tolls to increase people showing up in Ohio is that the majority of the toll traffic is from out-of-state drivers passing through (the road barely skims any urban areas). It gets close to Toledo, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, but never quite gets within the urban area where commuters will generally take it.

More the reason to remove the toll.  You will import more $ into the state from the out of state drivers.

The region needs to remove its human push factors.  The excuses above for the region's decline are laughable.  More freedom elsewhere, that's why the region is hurting.  Freedom of movement is a big freedom, remove those tolls!

Again: tolled mainlines = rust belt.  My guess is the mentality of areas that accept excessive taxation on mobility also support excessive taxation/regulation in other areas, limiting freedom and pushing folks to freer pastures. 

And again, where's the tax revenue coming from to support making the road free?  Answer: nowhere.  The tolled roads aren't what's hurting the region.  It's a transition from one type of economy to another.  As vehicles become more fuel efficient (or use zero gasoline or diesel at all), that wonderful gas tax revenue will dry up.  Then, your wonderful sunburned belt roads will be a mass of potholes.

[The Premier]

As vehicles become more fuel efficient (or use zero gasoline or diesel at all), that wonderful gas tax revenue will dry up.  Then, your wonderful sunburned belt roads will be a mass of potholes.

The best solution to address this is to have the gas tax adjusted to inflation. That would have solve all the problems and we wouldn't have this discussion over privatizing the Ohio Turnpike or the Indiana Toll Road. Yet the sad thing of all of this is that no one, either in Columbus or Washington, have the political will to even consider this. Which is a damn shame.

The problem with the thought on removing the tolls to increase people showing up in Ohio is that the majority of the toll traffic is from out-of-state drivers passing through (the road barely skims any urban areas). It gets close to Toledo, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, but never quite gets within the urban area where commuters will generally take it.

More the reason to remove the toll.  You will import more $ into the state from the out of state drivers.

I will disagree on that heavily. The fact of the matter is that tolls have nothing to do with why the area is in danger of going downhill.

So let me ask you this Landshark: How are you going to get the money to pay for the necessary repairs? And how are you going to pay for this? IF the tolls cease to collect, those things aren't going to be done.

So your "tolled mainlines = rust belt" theory is very invalid.

[Sykotyk]

Not just inflation, The Premier, but also it would need to be pegged to CAFE standards (at least).The more mileage for a gallon of gas/diesel means lesser income to pay for the tires pounding the pavement. Inflation is a problem, but fuel economy can be just as bad. Hypermileage cars are only going to exacerbate the problem.

A 1,500 pound car getting 60mpg compared to a 1,500 pound car getting 20mpg is still inflicting the same amount of wear on a roadway.

That's why roadways are in such a funk. For as good as the CAFE standards have been to increasing fuel economy it has quietly siphoned cash from the till to maintain the roads the cars are driven on.

As for 'tolled mainlines'... the two most 'sought after' states in the country of Texas and Florida are building toll roads like crazy. No major work is done, really, unless it is a toll road. Which funnels much more traffic onto the mainline than it can handle (I-35 from San Antonio to Waco is a great example of that problem). The Austin bypass is horribly under par when it comes to revenue. They pegged truck traffic (the ideal thing to get off the mainline) at a much higher user rate for a toll that equals almost $1/mile and requires you to have TxTag (which the bigger trucking firms will not sign up for as there is free alternatives, and individual drivers for those companies cannot sign up for TxTag on their own because only the motor carrier can enter into a contract for TxTag). So, only a small handful of the thousands of trucks a day through the Austin bottleneck actually can take the tolled bypass AND go ahead and pay for a nearly $50 toll to add 10-20 miles to the trip and only save, at most, maybe 45 minutes of travel.

Tolling bypasses, same problem Orlando has. I-4 is getting swapped, yet every alternatives requires you to pay for the privilege.


Sykotyk

[The Premier]

As for 'tolled mainlines'... the two most 'sought after' states in the country of Texas and Florida are building toll roads like crazy. No major work is done, really, unless it is a toll road. Which funnels much more traffic onto the mainline than it can handle (I-35 from San Antonio to Waco is a great example of that problem). The Austin bypass is horribly under par when it comes to revenue. They pegged truck traffic (the ideal thing to get off the mainline) at a much higher user rate for a toll that equals almost $1/mile and requires you to have TxTag (which the bigger trucking firms will not sign up for as there is free alternatives, and individual drivers for those companies cannot sign up for TxTag on their own because only the motor carrier can enter into a contract for TxTag). So, only a small handful of the thousands of trucks a day through the Austin bottleneck actually can take the tolled bypass AND go ahead and pay for a nearly $50 toll to add 10-20 miles to the trip and only save, at most, maybe 45 minutes of travel.


Sykotyk

That's just crazy. This issue would be solved easily by allowing trucks to use credit/debit cards or even cash rather to force everyone to use electronic toll tags.

[InterstateNG]

The problem with the 130 toll bypass of Austin is that it was a high-priced road that didn't go anywhere and was especially hard to access for NB I-35 traffic.  Traffic can now bypass Austin since 45 SE got built a couple years ago, and 130 is supposed to be complete down to Seguin and I-10 in 2012.  Whether that boosts traffic counts is yet to be seen, but it's not like the toll roads are killing the desire of people to move to Central Texas.

[Mr_Northside]

More the reason to remove the toll.  You will import more $ into the state from the out of state drivers.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to poo-poo this idea.  People may not like the added cost of tolls in their travels, but I seriously doubt that someone considering doing out-of-state travel is going to alter or cancel their plans because of a toll road.  Conversely, I don't think anyone is gonna be at home thinking, "I'd go spend the money on gas, possible lodging, whatever out-of-state activities I'd be doing, etc... if only that highway was toll-free; That's the deal-breaker."

And, as someone pointed out earlier, the OH Turnpike specifically doesn't really enter any major cities, so if more people actually drove it, but didn't need to stop for food or gas in Ohio, all they are importing is more wear and tear on a road without ANY $$$.

[Sykotyk]

As for 'tolled mainlines'... the two most 'sought after' states in the country of Texas and Florida are building toll roads like crazy. No major work is done, really, unless it is a toll road. Which funnels much more traffic onto the mainline than it can handle (I-35 from San Antonio to Waco is a great example of that problem). The Austin bypass is horribly under par when it comes to revenue. They pegged truck traffic (the ideal thing to get off the mainline) at a much higher user rate for a toll that equals almost $1/mile and requires you to have TxTag (which the bigger trucking firms will not sign up for as there is free alternatives, and individual drivers for those companies cannot sign up for TxTag on their own because only the motor carrier can enter into a contract for TxTag). So, only a small handful of the thousands of trucks a day through the Austin bottleneck actually can take the tolled bypass AND go ahead and pay for a nearly $50 toll to add 10-20 miles to the trip and only save, at most, maybe 45 minutes of travel.


Sykotyk

That's just crazy. This issue would be solved easily by allowing trucks to use credit/debit cards or even cash rather to force everyone to use electronic toll tags.

Maybe you're not grasping the enormity of the price. If an average OTR company driver makes roughly $100 a day, they're not going to spend $50 of their own money to shave a half an hour off their drive time AND drive a few extra miles for which his company will probably be upset that he drove. Now, owner-operators could still conceivably think this toll is worthwhile. But, based on usage totals, it is not.

Nobody is going to go out of their way to pay $50+ plus the extra miles to save at most 30 minutes. And their companies certainly aren't going to do it, either.

[mightyace]

People may not like the added cost of tolls in their travels, but I seriously doubt that someone considering doing out-of-state travel is going to alter or cancel their plans because of a toll road. 

I generally agree, but I would have made an exception if Fast Eddie's I-80 tolling project in PA had come to fruition.

[The Premier]

It looks like privatization of the Turnpike is on the 2011 budget set by the governor. On top of that, there's a website calling on the privatization of the Ohio Turnpike.

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/1719

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2011/03/kasich_administration_source_s.html

[3467]

That was back in 2006. The Skyway and Indiana toll road probably wouldnt get as much today.
Also Ohio is a referendum state so would voters get a say ?

[The Premier]

Also Ohio is a referendum state so would voters get a say ?

More than likely. But then again, it will be interesting to see whether or not this debate will go to the polls this year.

[countysigns]

Privatization: Short term money for a long-term loan, essentially.

If you've driven the Indiana Toll Road since they've privatized, you'll realize they're very shoddy in how it is maintained. Massive potholes in the right lane. Toll lanes where the gate fails to operate properly (and this happens on a consistent basis). Why? Because they're not looking to break even, they're looking to turn a profit.

Just drove the whole length of the Toll Road yesterday - like you said, massive potholes in the right lane.  In fact, near Hammond, there were signs posted stating "ROUGH PAVEMENT".  What a shame.

[eriegator]

I don't think it's a bad idea for the future.
I have a question about speed  limits on private undedicated roads in Ohio. Does anyone know if the minimum speed limit is 25, or can residents desiginate a lower limit? We live in a 55 & older retirement commmunity and 25 does not cut it. Most people go over 25 to 30 especially visitors, workmen, etc. We are worried that some older residents that do not move very quickly could be hit. Can we lower the limit to 15 or 17 or something like that?

eriegator

[Alps]

I don't think it's a bad idea for the future.
I have a question about speed  limits on private undedicated roads in Ohio. Does anyone know if the minimum speed limit is 25, or can residents desiginate a lower limit? We live in a 55 & older retirement commmunity and 25 does not cut it. Most people go over 25 to 30 especially visitors, workmen, etc. We are worried that some older residents that do not move very quickly could be hit. Can we lower the limit to 15 or 17 or something like that?

eriegator

Erie: Welcome to the forum. In general, please try to keep on topic. I would appreciate if you posted this question as a new thread.

[3467]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/16/toll-road-privatization_n_878169.html

[vtk]

The Columbus Dispatch: Moneymaker or drain on drivers?

[thenetwork]

Are there ANY privatized toll roads/toll bridges/toll tunnels that are cheaper than or equal to similar nearby government-based toll authorities?   That is one of the problems.  And that is why those privatized toll facilities go to pot so quickly.  Since the private ownership can't funnel extra needed money over from other government funding sources, they have to raise tolls by a lot to get money to pay for things.  And as most people know, when you raise fees, you lose customers.  And how are you going to convince the well-to-dos to pay boku money to travel on roads that, over time, will probably get worse than roads that the common people can ride on for free?

I just see these privatization moves as having a snake start eating it's own tail, and sooner or later the governments will have to bail them out and dump more money to bring these facilities back up to acceptable levels.  Sure, decades down the road governments may have ample money to be able to save these "slum tollways", but if they have to bail them out in a economic time like the one we are in now, I don't see any good coming out of these deals.

It's getting late...did I make ANY sense??? 

[NE2]

Are there ANY privatized toll roads/toll bridges/toll tunnels that are cheaper than or equal to similar nearby government-based toll authorities?

Yes, those that are run at a loss because they benefit the operator in another way (such as providing access to development). Of course that doesn't apply to these major turnpikes.