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Author Topic: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange  (Read 289405 times)

PHLBOS

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2700 on: September 04, 2019, 02:14:39 PM »

Trenton was an approved control city for I-95 for as long as AASHTO kept a list of them.  With the rerouting of I-95, Trenton is not on the beaten path any longer, but is accessible from routes that I-95 accesses.  It does not necessarily have to be retained as a control city.  Pennsylvania, however, addressed this from the south by showing both Trenton and New York on northbound guide signs, where space allowed, whether new or retrofitted existing panels, with New York being the default where space did not allow.
Actually, the only signs that presently list both Trenton & New York for I-95 northbound in PA are the ones at the PA 413 (Exit 39/Former Exit 40) interchange.  Such was done because this interchange is located just south of the I-95/276/295 interchange.  Such also include a TO EAST 295 reference to reinforce the use of Trenton on those signs.  Most if not all the northbound ramps signs from I-676/US 30 and northward were changed from Trenton to New York.

Trenton accompanies I-295 at Exit 40.
Assuming that you're referring to the new interchange/connection.  Signing I-295 for Trenton there makes complete logical sense.  The issue I had was signing then-I-95 for Trenton north of the US 1 interchange near Langhorne; newer signs using Princeton from that interchange northward started appearing over a decade ago.

I do wonder, though, why Newark is not included as a northbound control city.
Older ramp signs for the northbound NJ Turnpike used to use a Newark/New York combination.

Thing are the way they are because there are many different state and toll agencies (in many states) at work that consider this issue differently enough (including whether changes are worth it) that there are inconsistencies or snubs.  The MUTCD may be there to encourage consistency, but it is a toothless document with standards and guidelines (after all, it was created in 1935) that is viewed differently by the various agencies.
With regards to MUTCD; the recent change I've seen lately is that many agencies, the NJTA being no exception, are discarding the listing of state names (although I've seen some exceptions), crossings (with some exceptions) and/or regions in favor of actual cities/municipalities.  I.e. taking the term control city literally.  IMHO, it would've been better/more useful to simply revise the MUTCD verbage from control city to control point or destination.  Problem/issue solved.

That said & I mentioned such way up-thread, the signing of the current I-95 & NJ Turnpike corridors IMHO would've been better served by the listing of states.  PA - DE or the old-school Penna. - Delaware could've been placed underneath the Newark/Trenton/Camden listings on the southbound I-95/NJ Turnpike signs through Exit 7.  To this day, DelDOT still uses a NJ - NY listing for many of its I-295 northbound signs so a precedent to do similar along southbound I-95/NJ Turnpike does exist.

Side bar: older/now gone through-signage for the southbound NJ Turnpike at Exit 6 used to have a Camden/Delaware listing.

A three-line listing of cities (Newark/Trenton/Camden - Philadelphia - Wilmington) listing could work too; but such would require taller sign boards.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2701 on: September 04, 2019, 02:24:10 PM »

Anyways, getting back to PA again...how is work progressing on the Scudders Falls bridge at the NJ line?

I had to laugh at this a little...as it's still off-topic!  :-D

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2146.0
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KEVIN_224

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2702 on: September 04, 2019, 03:03:52 PM »

almost 10 year ago to boot! Damn!
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SignBridge

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2703 on: September 04, 2019, 08:44:14 PM »

I've long agreed with PHLBOS that the MUTCD's requirement for use of only control cities is unreasonably narrow and unrealistic, especially in the New York City metro area. There are many locations where a regional name or bridge/tunnel, etc. may be more useful than a city name.

One such sign from yester-year that I especially miss was on the approach to the NJ Turnpike from the Lincoln Tunnel, which said: NJ Turnpike South, Pa-Del-Md.
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famartin

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2704 on: September 04, 2019, 08:52:05 PM »

My head spins every time I see this control city debate reignite . . .

Frankly, IMHO, there is no "correct" answer in this debate because it is trying to put a square peg (requirements for control cities) in a round hole (roads that go near but not to or through such control cities).

My take, just to throw gas on the brush fire (and give me a reason for my head to spin), is below.  I will never claim to be an authority on the subject, but opinion is my admission to this debate.  Some will be consistent with what others have said (perhaps a few times), some will be different.

Trenton was an approved control city for I-95 for as long as AASHTO kept a list of them.  With the rerouting of I-95, Trenton is not on the beaten path any longer, but is accessible from routes that I-95 accesses.  It does not necessarily have to be retained as a control city.  Pennsylvania, however, addressed this from the south by showing both Trenton and New York on northbound guide signs, where space allowed, whether new or retrofitted existing panels, with New York being the default where space did not allow.  Trenton accompanies I-295 at Exit 40.  For consistency, the same should be done from the north on the Turnpike.  Between Exit 13 and Exit 8, Trenton and Philadelphia should be shown on southbound pull throughs, with Trenton disappearing at Exit 7A and Philadelphia accompanying I-95 off at Exit 6.  If space is an issue, show Philadelphia only.

South of Exit 6 on the Turnpike, control cities are derived from a different approach.  I borrow from N.J.'s westerly neighbor to state that the Pa. Turnpike does not go to Philadelphia, Harrisburg or Pittsburgh, the three control cities most often shown on pull-throughs, but passes near them and has exits that go there.  There are numerous examples on the free highways where a specific route number does not go into a city (I-80 to New York, I-70 to Washington, for examples) -- control cities are neither an exact nor absolute science, but pull-through and exit control cities are the bread crumb trail that can be followed from a long way out even if the route numbers are covered.  Given this philosophy, Camden is fine south of Exit 6 to Exit 3.  Wilmington is the nearest city to the end of the Turnpike, so it would be used from Exit 3 down through I-295 across the DMB.

Northbound approaching New York City is a different animal that I may address another time.  I do wonder, though, why Newark is not included as a northbound control city.

Thing are the way they are because there are many different state and toll agencies (in many states) at work that consider this issue differently enough (including whether changes are worth it) that there are inconsistencies or snubs.  The MUTCD may be there to encourage consistency, but it is a toothless document with standards and guidelines (after all, it was created in 1935) that is viewed differently by the various agencies.  It it perfect . . . hell no, and it never will be.  Do we, as roadgeeks (or even practitioners) like it . . . not really.  The motoring public seems to get around, though, at least for the most part.

Now I feel better.  Perhaps it was the Motrin.  Thanks for reading.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder... have the turnpike control cities EVER really changed, other than changing Delaware to Wilmington?  I know New York, Trenton and Camden have been used forever, it seems.  I guess I'd have to review old sign photos, but for the turnpike (as with the MDTA), "why change it if it works" might be their mantra. 

As far as why northbound uses "New York" continuously while southbound changes multiple times... that's part of my theory as to the NJTA being North Jersey/NYC centric.  Which also partly explains why they care nothing for putting Philly as a control city too...  I mean, for the majority of New Jerseyans (i.e., the northerners), there is, after all, only one "City"...
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PHLBOS

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2705 on: September 05, 2019, 08:30:40 AM »

As far as why northbound uses "New York" continuously while southbound changes multiple times... that's part of my theory as to the NJTA being North Jersey/NYC centric.
Another thing to consider is that for one entering NJ from the Delaware Memorial Bridge, I-295 is signed for both Camden & Trenton; US 130 was likely signed for such (at least for Camden anyway) prior to I-295's existence.  Such is one reason why northbound NJ Turnpike ramp signage either listed just New York or a Newark/New York combination.

Aug. 2009 GSV shot of the original NJ Turnpike ramp signage at Exit 7A.  Note the use of Penn Extension in reference to the connector (current I-95) on the southbound panel.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 08:42:55 AM by PHLBOS »
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famartin

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2706 on: September 05, 2019, 03:57:05 PM »

As far as why northbound uses "New York" continuously while southbound changes multiple times... that's part of my theory as to the NJTA being North Jersey/NYC centric.
Another thing to consider is that for one entering NJ from the Delaware Memorial Bridge, I-295 is signed for both Camden & Trenton; US 130 was likely signed for such (at least for Camden anyway) prior to I-295's existence.  Such is one reason why northbound NJ Turnpike ramp signage either listed just New York or a Newark/New York combination.

Aug. 2009 GSV shot of the original NJ Turnpike ramp signage at Exit 7A.  Note the use of Penn Extension in reference to the connector (current I-95) on the southbound panel.

I do remember that, at least the Penn Extension part.  I had forgotten that Newark was also signed.  I wonder if it was ever signed elsewhere in that stretch, as I seem to recall most of the entrances south of Newark generally read "New York and NORTH" (older signage) or simply "95 North/Turnpike North" (newer signage). 
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PHLBOS

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2707 on: September 05, 2019, 04:57:39 PM »

I do remember that, at least the Penn Extension part.  I had forgotten that Newark was also signed.  I wonder if it was ever signed elsewhere in that stretch, as I seem to recall most of the entrances south of Newark generally read "New York and NORTH" (older signage) or simply "95 North/Turnpike North" (newer signage).
When the Exit 7 interchange was redone during the early 90s; the northbound ramp sign was essentially a newer version (reflectorized non-button-copy) of the fore-mentioned original Exit 7A sign.  Prior southbound ramp signage included the Penn. Extension/Camden message as well.  I'm guessing that the prior (before 1990s) signs listed similar messages.  To my knowledge, those locations were the only ones that featured dual-control point listings for both directions.
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bzakharin

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2708 on: September 05, 2019, 10:11:20 PM »

As far as why northbound uses "New York" continuously while southbound changes multiple times... that's part of my theory as to the NJTA being North Jersey/NYC centric.  Which also partly explains why they care nothing for putting Philly as a control city too...  I mean, for the majority of New Jerseyans (i.e., the northerners), there is, after all, only one "City"...
In that case, I would expect the opposite to be true. If I were North Jersey centric, I'd put Woodbridge, Elizabeth, and Newark up there, while sticking Philadelphia southbound since South Jersey doesn't exist.
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jaip

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #2709 on: September 05, 2019, 11:22:26 PM »

I live and work in the region. North Jerseyeans heavily prefer NYC, over their own cities. Some outright consider themselves New Yorkers and don't care about Philadelphia/South Jersey. I think they would rather include cities in South Jersey over Philly on southbound TPK even though they don’t care about South Jersey.
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