A Unique "Divided" Highway

[realjd]

So just give all US and Canadian citizens a free pass over the border if they have nothing to declare and be done with it.  The EU has completely open borders, and differing immigration laws didn't stop them.  Of course, the EU accurately assesses threats, while the US alternates between believing a threat is harmless and that the threat is putting them in mortal danger.

Like this? http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/trusted_traveler/nexus_prog/

[Michael in Philly]

It's one of the many reasons customs needs to be done away with on the US/Canada border.

For that to happen, we'd have both have to completely redo our immigration laws so they are consistent. I can't see either country going for that. It's not so much the Americans and Canadians crossing the border that is the concern, it's foreigners using one country to bypass immigration in the other.

The customs-free border crossing will not happen until Canada meets requirements set upon them by the U.S. (smuggling, anti-terrorism standards - I forget exactly what.)

From what I am aware of, and I have mentioned this in prior discussions on this topic, the problem is Canada's refugee policies.  For those coming to the USA claiming refugee status, the USA will hold them in overseas camps while their cases are investigated and then admit them when they clear while Canada will admit refugees first and then investigate their cases later - an unacceptable security risk in the eyes of the USA.  If/when Canada ever gets around to harmonizing that policy, it is my belief that the checkpoints can then be safely removed.

Mike

So just give all US and Canadian citizens a free pass over the border if they have nothing to declare and be done with it.  The EU has completely open borders, and differing immigration laws didn't stop them.  Of course, the EU accurately assesses threats, while the US alternates between believing a threat is harmless and that the threat is putting them in mortal danger.

I wonder if it will last (in Europe), though:  There was a recent flap about Denmark wanting to reestablish border controls.  The EU wasn't happy, but the Danish government didn't care.  If I'm not mistaken, the issue went away when the Danes elected a new government which wanted to keep the borders open.

I believe Schengen member states retain the right to conduct random checks, so saying the borders are completely open isn't quite accurate, although it may work that way in practice.

[english si]

The EU doesn't have completely open internal borders - my Uncle, working for HMRC in Dover would be out of work if they did. They have passport control and customs there - the customs is to do with taxes - free movement of goods is part of the EU, but individual countries have a right to charge 'Value Added Tax' on goods imported that aren't intended for personal consumption. Free movement of people is another EU tenant - but that only applies to EU citizens. A non-EU citizen can be turned back on entry to the UK from France - you would need to wave a passport if an EU citizen and get waved through (and not even that on the other side) - they can't do anymore than that other than stopping you if you don't declare something to customs. Unless you aren't an EU citizen.

Schengen is the main open travel area, though the UK & RoI common travel area (which isn't a completely free travel area - not least as there's a different set of countries that get Visa-exempt entry) is another. Schengen includes non-EU states (though so does the Common Market, which includes EFTA) and, with the exception of the Danes' recent flouting, the country boundaries are like county boundaries in the US (other than the rather more distinct street furniture changes). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

An American travelling around Europe would get a maximum of 90 days out of 180 in the Schengen area, but a maximum of 6 months in the British Isles (as non-working tourist in both cases).

[vdeane]

So just give all US and Canadian citizens a free pass over the border if they have nothing to declare and be done with it.  The EU has completely open borders, and differing immigration laws didn't stop them.  Of course, the EU accurately assesses threats, while the US alternates between believing a threat is harmless and that the threat is putting them in mortal danger.

Like this? http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/trusted_traveler/nexus_prog/

Essentially, though you'd have to lower the bureaucracy by a huge amount, and add a LOT more crossings.  I'd also like to eliminate absurdities like that divided highway.  Basically, my vision is for US/Canadian citizens to be able to act as if the border doesn't even exist.

This would be really handy for those that live in rural areas within 20 or so miles of the border.  Often the nearest decent transportation links and services are to be found in Canada.  For example, the closest Staples to me in in Cornwall, ON.  Also, a freeway between "I-81" and "I-87" already exists - it's the ON 401/A-20/future A-30 corridor; pity we can't use it as such.

If immigration is the only issue, whey does NEXUS require so much detail that you might as well be getting a security clearance?

[mgk920]

So just give all US and Canadian citizens a free pass over the border if they have nothing to declare and be done with it.  The EU has completely open borders, and differing immigration laws didn't stop them.  Of course, the EU accurately assesses threats, while the US alternates between believing a threat is harmless and that the threat is putting them in mortal danger.

Like this? http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/trusted_traveler/nexus_prog/

Essentially, though you'd have to lower the bureaucracy by a huge amount, and add a LOT more crossings.  I'd also like to eliminate absurdities like that divided highway.  Basically, my vision is for US/Canadian citizens to be able to act as if the border doesn't even exist.

This would be really handy for those that live in rural areas within 20 or so miles of the border.  Often the nearest decent transportation links and services are to be found in Canada.  For example, the closest Staples to me in in Cornwall, ON.  Also, a freeway between "I-81" and "I-87" already exists - it's the ON 401/A-20/future A-30 corridor; pity we can't use it as such.

If immigration is the only issue, whey does NEXUS require so much detail that you might as well be getting a security clearance?

Well, for one, there are oodles of sideroads that are interrupted by the border where the border is on land and can be quickly reconnected, but yes, I can see having to build a new crossing between Fort Erie, ON and the Buffalo, NY area (I-290 <-> a new 'Mid-Penn' highway to feed into ON 402 at London, ON by way of Norfolk and Tilsonburg, ON), likely TWO additional six-lane crossings in the Detroit, MI-Windsor, ON area, etc.

I hearya on the border security thing.  Even the popular (former) Algoma Central canyon tour train out of Sault Sainte Marie, ON has seen a decline in patronage, even though CN just completely refurbished its main trainset - it is just such a hassle crossing the border from I-75 in Michigan.



Mike

[Duke87]

Another hangup I see with opening up the border is drugs. Canada is very lax on enforcement of laws about cannabis. An open border would allow people in the US to go to Canada, buy weed easily without fear of consequence, and then easily bring it back to the US where in most places the authorities are not so tolerant of such things.

When I got searched by the USBP a couple months ago, that was one of the first things they asked me about. "You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us." My car of course contained no such substances and they let me go after about a half hour, but still, I shouldn't have had to put up with that.

[Brandon]

The customs-free border crossing will not happen until Canada meets requirements set upon them by the U.S. (smuggling, anti-terrorism standards - I forget exactly what.)

How about the other way around?  We knock it off with some of our bullshit.

One thing I do notice, most of the anti-customs stuff is from northern states that border Canada.  The southerners and southwesterners see it a bit differently.  For the record, I think customs on the US-Canada border needs to go.

[mgk920]

Another hangup I see with opening up the border is drugs. Canada is very lax on enforcement of laws about cannabis. An open border would allow people in the US to go to Canada, buy weed easily without fear of consequence, and then easily bring it back to the US where in most places the authorities are not so tolerant of such things.

When I got searched by the USBP a couple months ago, that was one of the first things they asked me about. "You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us." My car of course contained no such substances and they let me go after about a half hour, but still, I shouldn't have had to put up with that.

Well, the public attitude in the USA is steadily trending towards favoring an outright repeal of pot prohibition.

(USA negotiator at the border summit with Canada) "I'll tellya what, we'll trade your easy pot laws for our easy gun laws and call it a deal (on removing the checkpoints)."



Mike

[corco]

One thing I do notice, most of the anti-customs stuff is from northern states that border Canada.  The southerners and southwesterners see it a bit differently.  For the record, I think customs on the US-Canada border needs to go.

That's an interesting dichotomy I've noticed as I moved to Tucson that I didn't really realize before I lived down here. A lot of people do want to build the giant electric fence and shoot down Mexicans as they walk by, but a surprising number (many of them non-Hispanics!), are in favor of a more open border and are very anti-customs. The Mexico-as-friend-and-neighbor view is shockingly prevalent. Certainly not majority, but it's there a lot more than I would have guessed.

At the very least, there's definitely resentment among a lot of the population about the presence of CBP down here, especially because of the interior checkpoints.

Still very different from the US/Canada border relationship (I've lived reasonably close to that border as well), but interesting nonetheless.

[ghYHZ]

I grew up along the CAN/US Border. Most of the time no ID was even requested....neither a driver license or birth certificate....let alone a passport.

The border was there and you tolerated it but it didn't interfere with your life.......you might be back and forth a couple of time a day.  The community on the US side had a McDonalds before we did and it was quite common to load us kids in the car and head over for a McHappy Meal or for a treat in the evening. We had the hockey rink on our side and our minor hockey team was about a 50/50 split of US/Canadian players. When we had practice at 7am on a Saturday morning they were here too except it was 6am to them........the Atlantic/Eastern Time Zone ran down the middle of the river. Even municipal services such as fire protection and the water supply were shared.

[vdeane]

Another hangup I see with opening up the border is drugs. Canada is very lax on enforcement of laws about cannabis. An open border would allow people in the US to go to Canada, buy weed easily without fear of consequence, and then easily bring it back to the US where in most places the authorities are not so tolerant of such things.

When I got searched by the USBP a couple months ago, that was one of the first things they asked me about. "You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us." My car of course contained no such substances and they let me go after about a half hour, but still, I shouldn't have had to put up with that.

Or we could realize that the war on drugs has been a failure and should be ended.  Have we learned nothing from prohibition?

I'm all for removing BS.  Too bad the political elite is not.

[Dr Frankenstein]

When I got searched by the USBP a couple months ago, that was one of the first things they asked me about. "You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us." My car of course contained no such substances and they let me go after about a half hour, but still, I shouldn't have had to put up with that.

Being a frequent crosser, this half-hour hassle can become really aggravating after a few times, especially after a few in a row. Still, NEXUS is so full of bureaucratic shit that I can't even figure out if I'm eligible.

Interestingly enough, I've got more than twice as many searches with the CBSA than the CBP.

[realjd]

If immigration is the only issue, whey does NEXUS require so much detail that you might as well be getting a security clearance?

The US is fairly unique in that border officials perform both immigration and customs duty. The extensive paperwork is because they do an investigation much the same as a low level security clearance to determine that you won't smuggle anything into the country. It's not for immigration purposes but customs.

My wife and I both have Global Entry. It's like NEXUS or Sentri but for air traffic arrival (although I can use NEXUS lanes coming into the US - not into Canada - and Sentri pedestrian lanes on the Mexican border). It was worth the hassle IMO to skip the long lines coming back into the US.

Anyone without a criminal record should have no problem getting approved for NEXUS or GE.

[bugo]

You're probably thinking (when you mention the library) of Derby Line, Vt./Rock Island, Quebec.

that place is a crock of fascist pigshit.  do not do the casual and completely expected activity of walking two feet into the other country.  upon your return, you will get interrogated heavily.

Thanks, George W. Bush.

[bugo]

Another hangup I see with opening up the border is drugs. Canada is very lax on enforcement of laws about cannabis. An open border would allow people in the US to go to Canada, buy weed easily without fear of consequence, and then easily bring it back to the US where in most places the authorities are not so tolerant of such things.

When I got searched by the USBP a couple months ago, that was one of the first things they asked me about. "You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us." My car of course contained no such substances and they let me go after about a half hour, but still, I shouldn't have had to put up with that.

The fucking US government is so hung up over weed that they can't see straight.  When are they going to realize that it's a mostly benign plant?  They spend more time and resources going after weed than they do after far more dangerous drugs like methamphetamine, cocaine, and heroin.  Personally, I say legalize all of it and redirect the enforcement money into treatment.  But the US is a prison state, and there is too much money tied up in prisons for this to change anytime soon.

[xcellntbuy]

It is hoped that nearly 200 years of peaceful relations since 1815, a largely undefended border thousands of miles long and being the world's two largest trading partners, my country and our Canadian friends should certainly be able to overcome a lot of the nonsense.

[bugo]

Another hangup I see with opening up the border is drugs. Canada is very lax on enforcement of laws about cannabis. An open border would allow people in the US to go to Canada, buy weed easily without fear of consequence, and then easily bring it back to the US where in most places the authorities are not so tolerant of such things.

When I got searched by the USBP a couple months ago, that was one of the first things they asked me about. "You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us." My car of course contained no such substances and they let me go after about a half hour, but still, I shouldn't have had to put up with that.

Or we could realize that the war on drugs has been a failure and should be ended.  Have we learned nothing from prohibition?

There is too much money invested in the US prison system for any of this to change anytime soon.  Also, the government uses drugs as an excuse to deny other civil liberties.  They use the pretense of looking for drugs as an excuse to search your car, for example.  It's a sick, sick game.

[oscar]

Another hangup I see with opening up the border is drugs. Canada is very lax on enforcement of laws about cannabis. An open border would allow people in the US to go to Canada, buy weed easily without fear of consequence, and then easily bring it back to the US where in most places the authorities are not so tolerant of such things.

For the flip side, the lax U.S. attitude on firearms, and cheaper tobacco and booze than in Canada, give Canada a reason to monitor cross-border traffic.  Every time I've visited Canada, I've gotten at least routine questions about whether I'm packing heat.

In tiny Hyder, Alaska, there's no U.S. customs checkpoint (you can't go anywhere else in the U.S. from Hyder, except back through Canada), but now there is a checkpoint on the Canadian side, no doubt to deal with residents of Stewart, B.C. trying to stock up on cheap American cigarettes and booze.  Even before Canada set up its checkpoint, I understand that Revenue Canada watched the border for people trying to beat high Canadian taxes on tobacco and alcohol.

[hbelkins]

And people jump on me for unnecessarily interjecting politics into discussions...

[NE2]

And people jump on me for unnecessarily interjecting politics into discussions...

It's because you're in the conservative minority and this forum has a liberal bias. :hugeass:

[hbelkins]

Ha. I've frequently heard complaints that the roadgeek/road enthusiast/Roads Scholar community is predominantly conservative.

And it's : bigass : not :hugeass: 

Rumor has it the viatologist community consists of one person who claims he's fiscally conservative but socially liberal, yet has never expressed a conservative thought in the one forum he uses to post.

[agentsteel53]

"You sure you're not carrying any marijuana in your car? Just tell the truth, it'll make this easier for all of us."

I hate oddly worded questions like that.  I once was given "who are you here to pick up?", so I responded with "your question is based on false premises: I am not here to pick anyone up."

they did not like that.  at all.
Post Merge: December 03, 2011, 06:17:56 AM

At the very least, there's definitely resentment among a lot of the population about the presence of CBP down here, especially because of the interior checkpoints.

I don't know how Arizona, of all places - the home of Barry Goldwater - got so paleofascist as to have a sizable minority actually want to waste taxpayer dollars building a fence to keep out the subhumans.

[broadhurst04]

Slightly off the road topic, I read an article that talked about how certain aspects of living there can be a real hassle in terms of houses located on the border. If your house is in Canada but your driveway connects to a road in the USA, US CBP requires you to go to the Customs station at the end of the block every time you drive anywhere (what a nuisance that would be if you're going somewhere in Canada and you have to pass back and forth through immigration every time). People whose houses straddle the border–and apparently there are some–have to deal with different Canadian and American standards for things like toilets, hot water heaters, etc., so they have to buy different equipment depending on the part of the house in which something will be installed. People who are citizens of one country and not the other are careful to locate their beds in the "correct" country so that they can't be accused of improperly spending too much time in the other.

It sounds like a classic example of government adherence to procedure getting totally out of control in the face of the realities of life.

For another example of that sort of thing, look up the saga of the fellow who was jailed in Maine when he crossed the border to buy gas in Estcourt Station–a municipality in Maine that can be reached by road only via Canada–and failed to report to Customs. I think his name was Michel Jalavert. Once upon a time it was routine for Canadians to cross into the US to buy gas because it's so much cheaper south of the border. I imagine some people still do it but that the increased immigration control hassles have caused some people to forget it.

But returning to the Canusa Avenue topic, obviously in a town the authorities can make provision for houses located right on the border. Anyone know how it works in more remote areas? That is, there are various border crossings that are not staffed 24/7 as it is. What happens when someone's property in a remote area directly abuts the border? I assume the law requires you to travel around via the road in your own country and cross the border properly. Does the Border Patrol routinely travel through such areas ensuring that people didn't, say, build a driveway connecting to a road in the other country? We always hear about the Border Patrol activities down along the Mexican border but we seldom hear much about activity along the Canadian border.

Why were these houses built on the border in the first place? For the novelty of saying your kitchen is in one country and your dining room is in the other?

[mgk920]

Why were these houses built on the border in the first place? For the novelty of saying your kitchen is in one country and your dining room is in the other?

The story that I have heard regarding those border-straddling houses is that they were built entirely on one side or the other and that the border was subsequently resurveyed.

Mike

[corco]

The technicality of the boundary didn't really even matter until 50 years ago or so- it's only in the last century that the inanity of having to report to a customs house after walking across the street has kicked into play.