California Observations

[myosh_tino]

My mistake on that arrow-per-lane sign for northbound I-5.  The existing sign does show Santa Ana as the control city so there is an error in my drawing.  I made an assumption (a bad one apparently) that the control city for I-5 north of San Diego would be L.A.  My bad!

Edit: Apparently the specs for the new arrow-per-lane arrows is also incorrect on the FHWA website.  Their "draft" spec calls for a 66-inch up and option arrows and a 45-inch exit arrow but the MUTCD specifies these arrows are to be 72 and 48 inches tall.  Fitting 72-inch arrows in a 120-inch tall guide sign does present a much greater challenge.

[myosh_tino]

Here is the corrected I-5/CA-1 arrow-per-lane exit sign with the correct control city (Santa Ana per the existing sign) and the 72-inch arrows (things are definitely more cramped in this version)...


In this drawing, I reduced the arrow height from 72 inches down to 54 inches...

... but to get the exit arrow to clear the "ONLY" panel, I had to extend the vertical portion of the arrow shaft.  I like this version because things seem to be in better proportion and not nearly as cramped.

[roadfro]

Heh, thanks for the kind words but it does bring up an interesting point that I don't know the answer to... who is doing the sign designs and layouts... Caltrans HQ or at the district level?

Sign designs and layouts are performed by engineers at the district level or by consultants with district oversight.  HQ is responsible for developing general sign specifications and addressing issues with layouts, etc.

So signs like this...


or this...


(drawn based on sign plans for the new Cordelia weigh station project on I-80 just west of Fairfield)

...were designed either by a consultant or an engineer in District 4.  Shouldn't the left down arrow on the Tully Road sign be a white-on-green down arrow instead of black-on-yellow?  I did mention this sign to Gary Richards during one of his weekly chat sessions on the Mercury News and he said he would look into it.  The layout of the I-80 pull through is one I have never seen before.  It looked like the sign designer was going to add down arrows to the I-80 sign but then realized he/she couldn't because of the interchange sequence sign.  For whatever reason, that layout looks weird.

Moving back a bit...

The left arrow on the Tully Road sign should indeed be white on green. However, if you go by the 2009 National MUTCD, you couldn't have the left down arrow at all since it's an option lane.

The whole bridge assembly in the second picture is an awkward layout. Generally speaking, interchange sequence signs shouldn't be intermingled with pull throughs and advance exit signs like this--they're also supposed to be mounted on the far left. I think the wide I-80 pull-through is not really necessary either...they could make a smaller sign if they're not going to use down arrows. Also, I am not a fan of putting two control cities on one line in this manner unless it's being used distinctly to indicate certain lanes head certain directions.

[pctech]

So I take it that Tully road is a double lane exit? Far right lane must exit, next lane in can exit or continue on the freeway. (hence the left arrow should be white)

Mark

[Occidental Tourist]

My mistake on that arrow-per-lane sign for northbound I-5.  The existing sign does show Santa Ana as the control city so there is an error in my drawing.  I made an assumption (a bad one apparently) that the control city for I-5 north of San Diego would be L.A.  My bad!

You're in good company.  District 11 (San Diego) still uses LA as the control city northbound.

[TheStranger]

My mistake on that arrow-per-lane sign for northbound I-5.  The existing sign does show Santa Ana as the control city so there is an error in my drawing.  I made an assumption (a bad one apparently) that the control city for I-5 north of San Diego would be L.A.  My bad!

You're in good company.  District 11 (San Diego) still uses LA as the control city northbound.

I actually can see the logic in this - San Jose (the 10th largest city in the US) is rarely used as a control city for 101 north until Salinas, while San Francisco (which was larger until the late 1980s than SJ, and is more well-known) is a control city from Ventura northward.

[agentsteel53]

I actually can see the logic in this - San Jose (the 10th largest city in the US) is rarely used as a control city for 101 north until Salinas, while San Francisco (which was larger until the late 1980s than SJ, and is more well-known) is a control city from Ventura northward.

and San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while Santa Ana is ... well, it really isn't much of anything.  it's just another faceless geographical entity in Orange County, no different from Anaheim or Irvine or what have you.

[TheStranger]

I actually can see the logic in this - San Jose (the 10th largest city in the US) is rarely used as a control city for 101 north until Salinas, while San Francisco (which was larger until the late 1980s than SJ, and is more well-known) is a control city from Ventura northward.

and San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while Santa Ana is ... well, it really isn't much of anything.  it's just another faceless geographical entity in Orange County, no different from Anaheim or Irvine or what have you.

Santa Ana is the county seat, the named destination for that segment of I-5, and the largest city in the county.  Though I have never understood why Anaheim never got upgraded to control city status for that freeway - Disneyland is obviously the major destination for most out-of-towners passing through.

The SF Bay Area's trio of nationally-important cities makes "San Francisco" I guess a better shorthand for the region than "SF Bay Area", though at times (i.e. Route 120 in Manteca) the usage of SF as a control city is nothing short of absurd.

[agentsteel53]

Disneyland is obviously the major destination for most out-of-towners passing through.

then that should be the control city.

also solves California's budget crisis nicely.

[Occidental Tourist]

I actually can see the logic in this - San Jose (the 10th largest city in the US) is rarely used as a control city for 101 north until Salinas, while San Francisco (which was larger until the late 1980s than SJ, and is more well-known) is a control city from Ventura northward.

and San Jose is the 10th largest city in the US, while Santa Ana is ... well, it really isn't much of anything.  it's just another faceless geographical entity in Orange County, no different from Anaheim or Irvine or what have you.

It is the county seat, where the courts and most county services are located, which criteria may have prompted its use as a southbound control city in the first place.  It is also still a *largish city, second biggest in the county at 325,000.  I have no problem with keeping it as a control city, but the damned inconsistency drives me crazy.  I thought the purpose of control cities was to help out-of-towners.  Imagine driving between San Diego and LA for the first time, following the signs to LA, and 60 miles from LA, LA disappears as a control city and Santa Ana appears.  Did you miss some turn off to LA back in Oceanside?

My preference on major interstates would be, however, to keep the major destinations as the sole control cities, e.g. Tijuana, San Diego, Los Angeles, Stockton, Sacramento, Redding, Medford.

But a good point is raised.  Why is Ventura still a control city when it is much smaller than Oxnard (unless it is for the aforementioned county seat issue)?  Why aren't Stockton and San Jose control cities?  Either the 101 should have destination cities like Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Salinas and San Jose as control cities, or north of Los Angeles, San Jose should be the only control city.

[Occidental Tourist]

Disneyland is obviously the major destination for most out-of-towners passing through.

then that should be the control city.

also solves California's budget crisis nicely.

Don't you know?  District 12 fixed that issue.  They began signing the 55 from John Wayne Airport northward with the control city of "Anaheim/Riverside".

But . . . they didn't stop signing it after the 5 interchange; the 5 north is what you would take from the 55 to get to Disneyland (or Downtown Anaheim, for that matter).  So imagine you're a fresh-faced family off the plane, you're in your rental car, following the signs to Anaheim and Disneyland!  Suddenly, you find yourself sitting in dead-stopped traffic on the 91, heading for Corona, in the exact opposite direction of Anaheim. 
E.g., 55 terminus, showing Anaheim as a control city for the 91 east

[TheStranger]

My preference on major interstates would be, however, to keep the major destinations as the sole control cities, e.g. Tijuana, San Diego, Los Angeles, Stockton, Sacramento, Redding, Medford.

As Jake and I both unfortunately remember, Tijuana is not a control city at any point on 5 or 805.  Not even the border district of San Ysidro (which is somehow part of San Diego due to a "land" annexation through San Diego Bay) is used, leaving drivers with no southbound control destination to the border crossing.

But a good point is raised.  Why is Ventura still a control city when it is much smaller than Oxnard (unless it is for the aforementioned county seat issue)?  Why aren't Stockton and San Jose control cities?  Either the 101 should have destination cities like Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Salinas and San Jose as control cities, or north of Los Angeles, San Jose should be the only control city.

Ventura's at 100K or so, so half the size of Oxnard - but not super-tiny.

Stockton is used as an I-5 control city past the 580 split going northbound, but that's a pretty brief distance for it.  Interestingly, in downtown Sacramento, neither 5 nor 99 south are signed for Stockton!!  (I think 99 south is signed for Stockton off of local streets starting in South Sacramento)

As for 101 north, all the cities you listed in that final sentence ARE used, but with San Francisco as the primary control city every time.  In fact, I think the very first 101 north sign mentioning SF, in Ventura...doesn't list Santa Barbara at all!

[agentsteel53]

It is the county seat, where the courts and most county services are located, which criteria may have prompted its use as a southbound control city in the first place.  It is also still a *largish city, second biggest in the county at 325,000. 

still doesn't make it anywhere near as important as San Diego, Los Angeles... or even Disneyland, if you factor in road usage multiplied by driver unfamiliarity, which is what control cities serve to address.

[Occidental Tourist]

It is the county seat, where the courts and most county services are located, which criteria may have prompted its use as a southbound control city in the first place.  It is also still a *largish city, second biggest in the county at 325,000. 

still doesn't make it anywhere near as important as San Diego, Los Angeles... or even Disneyland, if you factor in road usage multiplied by driver unfamiliarity, which is what control cities serve to address.

I don't disagree.

[flowmotion]

I suspect the thinking was "It's called the Santa Ana Freeway, so the control city has to be Santa Ana."

[Occidental Tourist]

I suspect the thinking was "It's called the Santa Ana Freeway, so the control city has to be Santa Ana."

Perhaps.  Is AASHTO involved in the designation of control cities for interstates?  Maybe somebody knows if there was list of proposed control cities for the 5 submitted to and approved by AASHTO.

[agentsteel53]

I suspect the thinking was "It's called the Santa Ana Freeway, so the control city has to be Santa Ana."

the San Diego Freeway (I-405) has consistent Santa Monica and Long Beach control cities, as a reverse example: name is a more distant city than the control.

[DTComposer]

I would assume that Santa Ana was/is used for the control city because, as stated above, it is the county seat, but also at the time of the freeway's construction (early 1950s) Santa Ana was far and away the largest city in Orange County (the 1950 census had it about 45,000 vs. 15,000 for Anaheim, although both were around 100,000 by 1960). Disneyland didn't open until 1955.

[OCGuy81]

Disneyland is obviously the major destination for most out-of-towners passing through.

I've long thought that SNA should drop the John Wayne and reap in some Disney dollars switching the name to OC/Disneyland Airport or maybe Orange County/Mickey Mouse Airport. 


MOD NOTE: Ensuing discussion about LAX and other Southern California airports was moved to the California Airports thread. --roadfro

[pctech]

I was looking at a video of I-80 through Donner pass recently. It's an astonishing beautiful drive! I know that Caltrans is rebuilding this entire section as the pavement was worn out.  I notice in the video (which is eastbound) that there warning signs for slippery when wet/frost on what appeared to be new concrete. Were there problems with new construction?

Mark

[myosh_tino]

I was looking at a video of I-80 through Donner pass recently. It's an astonishing beautiful drive! I know that Caltrans is rebuilding this entire section as the pavement was worn out.  I notice in the video (which is eastbound) that there warning signs for slippery when wet/frost on what appeared to be new concrete. Were there problems with new construction?

Mark

I think the "Slippery When Wet/Frost" signs are intended for the winter months when there is ice and snow in the area.  It doesn't matter if the pavement is new or 50 years old.

[pctech]

I have a question about welcome/visitor centers. I've read that CA. doesn't have them on it's interstates at the state borders?
It seems  the in a state that has a large tourism economy they would be a good idea.  Why are they not in CA. system? Cost? Remote barren areas at state line?

Mark

[CentralCAroadgeek]

I have a question about welcome/visitor centers. I've read that CA. doesn't have them on it's interstates at the state borders?
It seems  the in a state that has a large tourism economy they would be a good idea.  Why are they not in CA. system? Cost? Remote barren areas at state line?

Mark

Yeah, this confuses me too. Maybe they wanted to put welcome centers in their tourist regions instead. And I think there would be significantly fewer welcome centers than there are in this state today.

On a similar topic, the Salinas and Buena Park welcome centers opened at around the same time last year. However, when driving to Disneyland for vacation, I noticed that there were already signage for the welcome center in Buena Park well within a month of its opening, whereas the Salinas one went through its first few months without a welcome center sign on the freeway. Proof that OC puts signs up faster than other districts....

[pctech]

How many miles of freeway/interstate standard highways  does CA. currently have?

Mark

[agentsteel53]

How many miles of freeway/interstate standard highways  does CA. currently have?

Mark

the only bit of info I could find is "over 4000".