Traffic signal

[jakeroot]

Thought about u-turn signals: I feel like the u-turn arrow lens can be hard to discern at a distance and can appear as a faulty solid RYG signal.

When they're used at RCUTs where the only 'left' movement is a u-turn, why not simply use a left arrow?

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7966343,-76.173838,3a,15y,125.25h,86.02t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA!2e0!5s20260301T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.976873846887571%26panoid%3DGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA%26yaw%3D125.25410258065392!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2303139,-77.9913719,3a,15y,124.85h,89.81t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw!2e0!5s20190501T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.1921865297235854%26panoid%3DXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw%26yaw%3D124.85431988229861!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

I would personally question why this would be a major concern. It may appear faulty from a distance, but it wouldn't by the time you're close enough for it to matter. Plus, with other markings and signs in place, I don't think there would be any doubt what movement the U-turn signal is for. Even if it was hard to make out the arrow.

Not really a *major concern*, but it seems like a left arrow would be adequate in this situation.

Fair enough. And apologies, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth there.

If the signals are placed like they are in your links, I definitely don't see the reason for U-turn lights. Left arrows seem more intuitive. Might also get more people to turn left on red, whereas the U-turn arrow might just confuse everyone into waiting for the green.

[Scott5114]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1BBsiydD4J/

Is this traffic signal doctor of Gulfport, MS for real?

He seems like another Roadsguy Rob and I get his click bait constantly.

Road Guy Rob had him on as a guest, so Rob seems to think he's legit. In that video, he was able to pop open a signal cabinet for Rob and explain everything that was going on inside it.

[freebrickproductions]

Thought about u-turn signals: I feel like the u-turn arrow lens can be hard to discern at a distance and can appear as a faulty solid RYG signal.

When they're used at RCUTs where the only 'left' movement is a u-turn, why not simply use a left arrow?

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7966343,-76.173838,3a,15y,125.25h,86.02t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA!2e0!5s20260301T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.976873846887571%26panoid%3DGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA%26yaw%3D125.25410258065392!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2303139,-77.9913719,3a,15y,124.85h,89.81t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw!2e0!5s20190501T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.1921865297235854%26panoid%3DXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw%26yaw%3D124.85431988229861!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

I would personally question why this would be a major concern. It may appear faulty from a distance, but it wouldn't by the time you're close enough for it to matter. Plus, with other markings and signs in place, I don't think there would be any doubt what movement the U-turn signal is for. Even if it was hard to make out the arrow.

Not really a *major concern*, but it seems like a left arrow would be adequate in this situation.

Fair enough. And apologies, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth there.

If the signals are placed like they are in your links, I definitely don't see the reason for U-turn lights. Left arrows seem more intuitive. Might also get more people to turn left on red, whereas the U-turn arrow might just confuse everyone into waiting for the green.

Would a left/u-turn on red be legal in either link though? IME, if a road's busy enough to require dedicated u-turn lights, it's probably too busy to safely make a u-turn on red anyways.

[CoreySamson]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1BBsiydD4J/

Is this traffic signal doctor of Gulfport, MS for real?

He seems like another Roadsguy Rob and I get his click bait constantly.

Road Guy Rob had him on as a guest, so Rob seems to think he's legit. In that video, he was able to pop open a signal cabinet for Rob and explain everything that was going on inside it.

Speaking of Gulfport, I always thought the way that Mississippi numbered the traffic lights along US 90 throughout the state was interesting: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VbWoczKURfSdTCcC6

I wonder if the "Traffic Light Doctor" is behind that in some way...

[PColumbus73]

Thought about u-turn signals: I feel like the u-turn arrow lens can be hard to discern at a distance and can appear as a faulty solid RYG signal.

When they're used at RCUTs where the only 'left' movement is a u-turn, why not simply use a left arrow?

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7966343,-76.173838,3a,15y,125.25h,86.02t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA!2e0!5s20260301T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.976873846887571%26panoid%3DGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA%26yaw%3D125.25410258065392!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2303139,-77.9913719,3a,15y,124.85h,89.81t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw!2e0!5s20190501T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.1921865297235854%26panoid%3DXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw%26yaw%3D124.85431988229861!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

I would personally question why this would be a major concern. It may appear faulty from a distance, but it wouldn't by the time you're close enough for it to matter. Plus, with other markings and signs in place, I don't think there would be any doubt what movement the U-turn signal is for. Even if it was hard to make out the arrow.

Not really a *major concern*, but it seems like a left arrow would be adequate in this situation.

Fair enough. And apologies, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth there.

If the signals are placed like they are in your links, I definitely don't see the reason for U-turn lights. Left arrows seem more intuitive. Might also get more people to turn left on red, whereas the U-turn arrow might just confuse everyone into waiting for the green.

Would a left/u-turn on red be legal in either link though? IME, if a road's busy enough to require dedicated u-turn lights, it's probably too busy to safely make a u-turn on red anyways.

In NC, they have added No Turn On Red signs at RCUTs, safe to say NCDOT has had a problem with making a u-turn against the red light.

But with the u-turn signal more broadly, outside of an RCUT, or where the only left movement is a u-turn, has a u-turn arrow been installed elsewhere?

[kphoger]

Thought about u-turn signals: I feel like the u-turn arrow lens can be hard to discern at a distance and can appear as a faulty solid RYG signal.

When they're used at RCUTs where the only 'left' movement is a u-turn, why not simply use a left arrow?

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7966343,-76.173838,3a,15y,125.25h,86.02t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA!2e0!5s20260301T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.976873846887571%26panoid%3DGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA%26yaw%3D125.25410258065392!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2303139,-77.9913719,3a,15y,124.85h,89.81t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw!2e0!5s20190501T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.1921865297235854%26panoid%3DXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw%26yaw%3D124.85431988229861!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

If the signals are placed like they are in your links, I definitely don't see the reason for U-turn lights. Left arrows seem more intuitive. Might also get more people to turn left on red, whereas the U-turn arrow might just confuse everyone into waiting for the green.

Would a left/u-turn on red be legal in either link though?

That's what I was thinking.  But I thought maybe I had misunderstood Jake, and I didn't want to look stupid for asking.

[jakeroot]

Would a left/u-turn on red be legal in either link though?

That's what I was thinking.  But I thought maybe I had misunderstood Jake, and I didn't want to look stupid for asking.

I didn't fully explain my thoughts there, so the confusion is on me.

Sometimes if a median is wide enough (like...really wide), these "U-turns" end up being more of a left, stop on red, then another left. The whole maneuver is a big U-turn, but legally it's more a left onto a one-way. Pretty much every state allows curb to curb left on red, so in theory, if signed right, they could allow left on red.

My primary example is just the entire state of Michigan. Michigan Lefts allow left on red, and to my knowledge it is widely practiced there.

In NC, they have added No Turn On Red signs at RCUTs, safe to say NCDOT has had a problem with making a u-turn against the red light.

I can definitely understand how, on wide median roads with signalized RCUTs, drivers would want to turn on red. Ironically, North Carolina is one of the eight states (plus DC) that doesn't allow Left on Red in any capacity. So even if most states would allow turns on red at RCUTs, North Carolina doesn't by statute. Doesn't mean they couldn't through signage, though.

[kphoger]

1
2

If the signals are placed like they are in your links, I definitely don't see the reason for U-turn lights. Left arrows seem more intuitive. Might also get more people to turn left on red, whereas the U-turn arrow might just confuse everyone into waiting for the green.

I didn't fully explain my thoughts there, so the confusion is on me.

Sometimes if a median is wide enough (like...really wide), these "U-turns" end up being more of a left, stop on red, then another left. The whole maneuver is a big U-turn, but legally it's more a left onto a one-way. Pretty much every state allows curb to curb left on red, so in theory, if signed right, they could allow left on red.

But both of the links go to locations without wide medians.  That is, neither is anything like what you describe.  How would that encourage people to turn left on red?

[jakeroot]

But both of the links go to locations without wide medians.  That is, neither is anything like what you describe.  How would that encourage people to turn left on red?

I just misspoke. When I wrote my reply, I seemed to remember the medians looking wider, at least in the first link. Clearly the second link is just a regular U-turn.

I was envisioning setups more like this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DgD5zJzih5e1asi78

[jdbx]

Thought about u-turn signals: I feel like the u-turn arrow lens can be hard to discern at a distance and can appear as a faulty solid RYG signal.

When they're used at RCUTs where the only 'left' movement is a u-turn, why not simply use a left arrow?

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7966343,-76.173838,3a,15y,125.25h,86.02t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA!2e0!5s20260301T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.976873846887571%26panoid%3DGQwXnkOVIRwniFjBmyixIA%26yaw%3D125.25410258065392!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2303139,-77.9913719,3a,15y,124.85h,89.81t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw!2e0!5s20190501T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.1921865297235854%26panoid%3DXcm2z1Na21H0Y1SHy2wDTw%26yaw%3D124.85431988229861!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

I would personally question why this would be a major concern. It may appear faulty from a distance, but it wouldn't by the time you're close enough for it to matter. Plus, with other markings and signs in place, I don't think there would be any doubt what movement the U-turn signal is for. Even if it was hard to make out the arrow.

Not really a *major concern*, but it seems like a left arrow would be adequate in this situation.

Fair enough. And apologies, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth there.

If the signals are placed like they are in your links, I definitely don't see the reason for U-turn lights. Left arrows seem more intuitive. Might also get more people to turn left on red, whereas the U-turn arrow might just confuse everyone into waiting for the green.

Would a left/u-turn on red be legal in either link though? IME, if a road's busy enough to require dedicated u-turn lights, it's probably too busy to safely make a u-turn on red anyways.

In NC, they have added No Turn On Red signs at RCUTs, safe to say NCDOT has had a problem with making a u-turn against the red light.

But with the u-turn signal more broadly, outside of an RCUT, or where the only left movement is a u-turn, has a u-turn arrow been installed elsewhere?

The only place I have ever seen a U-turn arrow on a traffic light is right outside of Disneyland along Harbor Blvd in Anaheim:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/KRgmafnVquBDcuY5A

[fwydriver405]

In NC, they have added No Turn On Red signs at RCUTs, safe to say NCDOT has had a problem with making a u-turn against the red light.

MassDOT (or the agency) responsible for the signal, do put up No Turn on Red signs at some of their U-turn locations, but not all. I'm not sure if MGL Chapter 89, Section 8 permits a U-turn on red on a divided road like the ones on Route 9 and 203, though the medians in these examples are narrow compared to the Michigan examples.

But with the u-turn signal more broadly, outside of an RCUT, or where the only left movement is a u-turn, has a u-turn arrow been installed elsewhere?

I've seem them sparingly around New England, but here are a few I can think of around there and in other places:

Fully permissive - FYA
Davis Square, Somerville, MA. This is because of a conflicting protected right turn and pedestrian phase from Day St.

Fully Protected
Plaistow, NH
Morgan Hill, CA
San Diego, CA - time of day based left/U turn lane, left turns are prohibited during times of the day
Hackensack, NJ - notice how there is a dedicated U-turn lane and a left turn lane.
 
Protected/Permissive - Shared Signal
Maryland has a few in a doghouse signal, some I can think of are in Ocean City and Burtonsville
Winnipeg, Manitoba - Inline 5

Other
Not a dedicated U-turn lane, but Calgary, Alberta has these signals on parts of International Ave that have flashing green left and U-turn indications.

[kphoger]

I think it's silly to have a U-turn signal aspect but a left-turn pavement arrow.

[roadfro]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1BBsiydD4J/

Is this traffic signal doctor of Gulfport, MS for real?

He seems like another Roadsguy Rob and I get his click bait constantly.

Road Guy Rob had him on as a guest, so Rob seems to think he's legit. In that video, he was able to pop open a signal cabinet for Rob and explain everything that was going on inside it.

I got turned on to The Traffic Light Doctor's YouTube channel a little while ago. He previously worked for a construction contractor in Mississippi that does installations and maintenance of traffic signals and related infrastructure. So a lot of his videos are him at work with a GoPro and talking through what they're doing (digging and setting foundations, setting poles, wiring signal heads and cabinets, troubleshooting malfunctions, etc.) and interacting with the crew. Some of his videos more recently got more "made for YouTube" in style, explaining how various traffic control features work. He recently decided to make the content creator route his primary gig, but he's still also doing some of that field work.

As a roadgeek who studied civil engineering (despite not going into the field) and has had a lifelong interest in this kind of stuff, it's pretty legit. I've found his videos dealing with signal cabinets and controllers especially interesting.

[freebrickproductions]

but not all

That's definitely an odd intersection. The use of left arrows in the signals and on the pavement to me seems to indicate that the now-closed bridge used to be two-way, but was later converted to one-way prior to being closed and the left turn lane was kept as a u-turn lane.

[jakeroot]

but not all

That's definitely an odd intersection. The use of left arrows in the signals and on the pavement to me seems to indicate that the now-closed bridge used to be two-way, but was later converted to one-way prior to being closed and the left turn lane was kept as a u-turn lane.

It's hard to tell from old imagery, but it does seem like two-way traffic was a thing over that bridge for a long time. The tire tracks show lots of right turns onto the bridge from Revere Beach Pkwy to the old bridge eastbound.

https://www.historicaerials.com/location/42.40349939678745/-71.00794328464566/1971/18

[wanderer2575]

Eastbound US-10 before M-115 west of Farwell, MI.  Good thing there's a green THRU arrow here in case you have any doubts:  /s

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KcBgHVV1cQBeAnvG7

[jakeroot]

Eastbound US-10 before M-115 west of Farwell, MI.  Good thing there's a green THRU arrow here in case you have any doubts:  /s

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KcBgHVV1cQBeAnvG7

I am very, very sure I've never seen anything like this.

[kphoger]

Eastbound US-10 before M-115 west of Farwell, MI.  Good thing there's a green THRU arrow here in case you have any doubts:  /s

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KcBgHVV1cQBeAnvG7

I am very, very sure I've never seen anything like this.

Did you look at previous dates?  It's even weirder.

2014 — Keep Right, seems appropriate

2018 — Now let's add the THRU arrow, for whatever reason

I expected it to be a relic from some previous configuration.  But no, it was added.  Cray-cray!

[jakeroot]

Did you look at previous dates?  It's even weirder.

2014 — Keep Right, seems appropriate

2018 — Now let's add the THRU arrow, for whatever reason

I expected it to be a relic from some previous configuration.  But no, it was added.  Cray-cray!

I hadn't, but I wished I had! That's crazy.

I'm not actually sure what the MUTCD stipulates in terms of when and where signals are permitted to be installed. I've always assumed they were at least required to be installed at intersections. At least actual traffic lights, beacons being different of course...maybe Michigan just considers this a beacon?

[roadfro]

Did you look at previous dates?  It's even weirder.

2014 — Keep Right, seems appropriate

2018 — Now let's add the THRU arrow, for whatever reason

I expected it to be a relic from some previous configuration.  But no, it was added.  Cray-cray!

I hadn't, but I wished I had! That's crazy.

I'm not actually sure what the MUTCD stipulates in terms of when and where signals are permitted to be installed. I've always assumed they were at least required to be installed at intersections. At least actual traffic lights, beacons being different of course...maybe Michigan just considers this a beacon?

This is so bizarre. I wonder what made the addition of the green arrow "necessary". 

I can't cite provision at the moment, but I'm pretty sure this isn't MUTCD-compliant.

[PColumbus73]

6-section inline signal in CA...

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7509643,-120.5204781,3a,15y,335.25h,92.31t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1spInp8JCXSAcJ6FPfcZp2LA!2e0!5s20120401T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.31386188368144%26panoid%3DpInp8JCXSAcJ6FPfcZp2LA%26yaw%3D335.24922594462134!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDUwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[kphoger]

6-section inline signal in CA...

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7509643,-120.5204781,3a,15y,335.25h,92.31t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1spInp8JCXSAcJ6FPfcZp2LA!2e0!5s20120401T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.31386188368144%26panoid%3DpInp8JCXSAcJ6FPfcZp2LA%26yaw%3D335.24922594462134!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDUwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Here it is with the top aspect lit up:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/FtYgzoith6snnGFa9

[CJResotko]

Eastbound US-10 before M-115 west of Farwell, MI.  Good thing there's a green THRU arrow here in case you have any doubts:  /s

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KcBgHVV1cQBeAnvG7

That is so unusual, even for Michigan...

[wanderer2575]

Jefferson Avenue west of the Gordie Howe Bridge in Detroit.

• HAWK signals at a railroad crossing.
• Westbound signals are on a mast arm, while eastbound signals are on a span wire.  No doubt because there's a side street to the left here, but it still looks goofy.
• Extra signal heads for the bike lane.

[Big John]

^^ At least it follows the wigwag of a railroad signal.