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Author Topic: Japan  (Read 12325 times)

bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2020, 11:00:06 AM »


Here is a cool roadgeek ride from the 1980's in Japan.
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stridentweasel

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Re: Japan
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2020, 06:12:10 PM »

It's interesting how freeways and extensive public transit are able to coexist peacefully in the metropolises across Japan, especially Tokyo which I visited in mid-January. I wonder why we can't do that here in the US.

It's a very homogenous society; if something stands to benefit the majority, my understanding is that most Japanese people will support it.

As I've learned in my transport courses at university, society doesn't benefit from transport networks that don't have some degree of redundancy (to absorb "shock"). Japan's major cities have incredibly redundancy; as far as I know, Tokyo offers all forms of transportation. If one mode gets overloaded, there's capacity elsewhere to absorb it. This redundancy is beneficial to everyone, even if someone only uses bikes and subways to get to work.

This is all wonderful, although they are apparently suffering from incredible levels of debt (^^^^) building such infrastructure.

I gotta ask, does any Japanese city have anywhere near as many freeway lane-miles per capita as any U.S. city that isn't New York?  It's a loaded question because, despite my admitted lack of thorough quantitative research on the subject, I highly doubt it.

(Also, I'm jealous that you took multiple courses in transport.  I didn't even have one that was fully dedicated to the subject.)
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jakeroot

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Re: Japan
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2020, 12:58:51 PM »

It's interesting how freeways and extensive public transit are able to coexist peacefully in the metropolises across Japan, especially Tokyo which I visited in mid-January. I wonder why we can't do that here in the US.

It's a very homogenous society; if something stands to benefit the majority, my understanding is that most Japanese people will support it.

As I've learned in my transport courses at university, society doesn't benefit from transport networks that don't have some degree of redundancy (to absorb "shock"). Japan's major cities have incredibly redundancy; as far as I know, Tokyo offers all forms of transportation. If one mode gets overloaded, there's capacity elsewhere to absorb it. This redundancy is beneficial to everyone, even if someone only uses bikes and subways to get to work.

This is all wonderful, although they are apparently suffering from incredible levels of debt (^^^^) building such infrastructure.

I gotta ask, does any Japanese city have anywhere near as many freeway lane-miles per capita as any U.S. city that isn't New York?  It's a loaded question because, despite my admitted lack of thorough quantitative research on the subject, I highly doubt it.

(Also, I'm jealous that you took multiple courses in transport.  I didn't even have one that was fully dedicated to the subject.)

I did see this comment. Pardon the slow reply. "Transport courses"  = two, for the record :-D (an Urban Planning course, and a Transport Planning course).

It's really hard to say. I don't know how many lane-miles of freeway there are in my city, nevermind some Japanese city.

But, based on what I know about Japan, they do have a surprising number of expressways. It's just that, by and large, they aren't 10 lanes in each direction. There are exceptions, like the Osaka CBD Ring Road that has four to five lanes in each direction, because it's a one-way sort of orbital road around the center of Osaka, but most freeways are fairly narrow, with 4 to 6 lanes max.

Japan doesn't view road travel, at least within built-up areas, as the most important transport method. For example, in Osaka (the city below -- note how many freeways there are), private vehicles account for a mere 18% of the modal share. The vast majority either walk, ride bikes, or use public transport, or some combination thereof.

I would guess that the average Japanese city isn't far off some American cities in terms of the overall number of freeways constructed, but they differ not just in financing methods (lots of tolls in Japan), but also how wide they are. As cities grew, the focus was not on adding more lanes or improving bottlenecks, but primarily on growing the public transport network and constructing urban areas that encouraged alternative transport methods. We did not do this in the US, so we instead focus on weird metrics like "freeway lane miles per capita". It's not that it's a silly metric, but it's just not important in places like Japan where, by and large, freeways just aren't the main transport mode.

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Chris

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Re: Japan
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2020, 02:55:11 PM »

Japan doesn't view road travel, at least within built-up areas, as the most important transport method. For example, in Osaka (the city below -- note how many freeways there are), private vehicles account for a mere 18% of the modal share. The vast majority either walk, ride bikes, or use public transport, or some combination thereof.

I suspect the 18% share is the modal split in the number of trips, and not the traveled distance, or it only applies to the central municipality and not the urban / metropolitan area. This statistic is popular in some urban planning circles to dismiss the relevance of urban road infrastructure. However the share as a number of trips exaggerates walking, it basically equals a 5 minute walk to a 40 kilometer train or car journey, which obviously puts a different amount of stress on a transportation system.

In Japan, driving accounts for 60% of traveled kilometers, see: https://www.mlit.go.jp/road/road_e/statistics.html

Many sources like statista present erroneous figures from the Japan statistical yearbook, where passenger kilometers by road only includes business usage and not private usage. 

Buffaboy

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Re: Japan
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2020, 09:45:49 PM »

You know, a thought just crossed my mind regarding I-81 in Syracuse, NY... why do freeways seem to work out better in terms of land usage in Japan than they do here in the U.S.? When I was in Tokyo I was in awe by the fact that the Shibuya area is laced with freeways, but on the ground you almost don't even notice them. Perhaps the only place in the U.S. with these kinds of freeways is New York City.

Edit: I actually forgot I asked a similar question above, haha, but I still think that the land usage of I-81 is dated.
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Alps

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Re: Japan
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2020, 12:55:45 AM »

You know, a thought just crossed my mind regarding I-81 in Syracuse, NY... why do freeways seem to work out better in terms of land usage in Japan than they do here in the U.S.? When I was in Tokyo I was in awe by the fact that the Shibuya area is laced with freeways, but on the ground you almost don't even notice them. Perhaps the only place in the U.S. with these kinds of freeways is New York City.

Edit: I actually forgot I asked a similar question above, haha, but I still think that the land usage of I-81 is dated.
You don't notice them in NYC? Tell that to Crotona Park.

Buffaboy

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Re: Japan
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2020, 01:07:11 AM »

You know, a thought just crossed my mind regarding I-81 in Syracuse, NY... why do freeways seem to work out better in terms of land usage in Japan than they do here in the U.S.? When I was in Tokyo I was in awe by the fact that the Shibuya area is laced with freeways, but on the ground you almost don't even notice them. Perhaps the only place in the U.S. with these kinds of freeways is New York City.

Edit: I actually forgot I asked a similar question above, haha, but I still think that the land usage of I-81 is dated.
You don't notice them in NYC? Tell that to Crotona Park.

Yeah you have a point. I was really referring to the Gowanus Expy because it's raised over the street like many expressways in Japan.

But I've never been east of the East River, so what do I know  :-D.
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Buffaboy

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Re: Japan
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2020, 01:09:40 AM »

It's interesting how freeways and extensive public transit are able to coexist peacefully in the metropolises across Japan, especially Tokyo which I visited in mid-January. I wonder why we can't do that here in the US.

It's a very homogenous society; if something stands to benefit the majority, my understanding is that most Japanese people will support it.

As I've learned in my transport courses at university, society doesn't benefit from transport networks that don't have some degree of redundancy (to absorb "shock"). Japan's major cities have incredibly redundancy; as far as I know, Tokyo offers all forms of transportation. If one mode gets overloaded, there's capacity elsewhere to absorb it. This redundancy is beneficial to everyone, even if someone only uses bikes and subways to get to work.

This is all wonderful, although they are apparently suffering from incredible levels of debt (^^^^) building such infrastructure.

I gotta ask, does any Japanese city have anywhere near as many freeway lane-miles per capita as any U.S. city that isn't New York?  It's a loaded question because, despite my admitted lack of thorough quantitative research on the subject, I highly doubt it.

(Also, I'm jealous that you took multiple courses in transport.  I didn't even have one that was fully dedicated to the subject.)

I did see this comment. Pardon the slow reply. "Transport courses"  = two, for the record :-D (an Urban Planning course, and a Transport Planning course).

It's really hard to say. I don't know how many lane-miles of freeway there are in my city, nevermind some Japanese city.

But, based on what I know about Japan, they do have a surprising number of expressways. It's just that, by and large, they aren't 10 lanes in each direction. There are exceptions, like the Osaka CBD Ring Road that has four to five lanes in each direction, because it's a one-way sort of orbital road around the center of Osaka, but most freeways are fairly narrow, with 4 to 6 lanes max.

Japan doesn't view road travel, at least within built-up areas, as the most important transport method. For example, in Osaka (the city below -- note how many freeways there are), private vehicles account for a mere 18% of the modal share. The vast majority either walk, ride bikes, or use public transport, or some combination thereof.

I would guess that the average Japanese city isn't far off some American cities in terms of the overall number of freeways constructed, but they differ not just in financing methods (lots of tolls in Japan), but also how wide they are. As cities grew, the focus was not on adding more lanes or improving bottlenecks, but primarily on growing the public transport network and constructing urban areas that encouraged alternative transport methods. We did not do this in the US, so we instead focus on weird metrics like "freeway lane miles per capita". It's not that it's a silly metric, but it's just not important in places like Japan where, by and large, freeways just aren't the main transport mode.



That answers my question. IMO they did it the right way over there!
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jakeroot

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Re: Japan
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2020, 01:20:47 AM »

That answers my question. IMO they did it the right way over there!

You may want to consider Chris' response to my post (a few above). I'm not 100% convinced by his response, but I have no legitimate argument to refute what he said.
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SeriesE

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Re: Japan
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2020, 02:44:02 PM »

It's interesting how freeways and extensive public transit are able to coexist peacefully in the metropolises across Japan, especially Tokyo which I visited in mid-January. I wonder why we can't do that here in the US.

It's a very homogenous society; if something stands to benefit the majority, my understanding is that most Japanese people will support it.

As I've learned in my transport courses at university, society doesn't benefit from transport networks that don't have some degree of redundancy (to absorb "shock"). Japan's major cities have incredibly redundancy; as far as I know, Tokyo offers all forms of transportation. If one mode gets overloaded, there's capacity elsewhere to absorb it. This redundancy is beneficial to everyone, even if someone only uses bikes and subways to get to work.

This is all wonderful, although they are apparently suffering from incredible levels of debt (^^^^) building such infrastructure.

There are exceptions of course. Prominent examples are Narita Airport (some planned runways were never built) and Kansai Airport (original alternative is near where Kobe Airport is right now).
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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2020, 11:34:36 AM »


Here is a tour of the Osaka Area.

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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2020, 11:36:09 AM »


Here is another tour on Japan's scenic roads.
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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2020, 10:12:00 AM »

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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2020, 11:01:29 AM »




Here is a roadgeek tour of Kobe.
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: Japan
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2020, 12:29:10 PM »

Very cool roadgeek tour. :)

In the first opening credits of the anime "You're Under Arrest", at around 1:37 in the clip of the opening, they show a freeway over one of Tokyo bays, I wonder which freeway is it.
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jakeroot

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Re: Japan
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2020, 01:30:37 AM »

In the first opening credits of the anime "You're Under Arrest", at around 1:37 in the clip of the opening, they show a freeway over one of Tokyo bays, I wonder which freeway is it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7eVX9uYoyU

It doesn't seem real (ignoring that anime is, naturally, not real, although sometimes based on real life). The closest equivalent seems to be the Bayshore Route, considering its straightness and that it doesn't stray away from land like the bridge portion of the Aqua Line, but it's not a giant bridge like in the opening.
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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2020, 07:34:36 PM »

Here is a tour of Tokyo Freeways at night.

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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2020, 12:15:30 PM »




Here is a night tour of Kobe and it features a double decked freeway at the start of the video.
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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2020, 09:17:39 AM »

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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2020, 08:26:26 PM »

Dashcam Roadshow does a tour on Fukuoka freeways.
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Chris

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Re: Japan
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2020, 05:00:38 AM »

The Shin-Tomei Expressway (E1A) is now striped for six lanes with a 120 km/h speed limit between Gotemba and Hamamatsu:



bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2020, 12:01:23 PM »


Here is another tour of Japan.

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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2020, 11:26:12 AM »




Here is a tour of Osaka to Kobe area freeways.
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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2021, 10:28:21 AM »


Tour of Tokyo on the Metro expressway.
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bing101

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Re: Japan
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2021, 07:32:23 PM »

Here is a Hiroshima Road Tour.
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