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Author Topic: Wisconsin notes  (Read 367357 times)

jakeroot

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2150 on: July 11, 2018, 01:34:39 PM »

Every little bit helps, but even if Wisconsin would have retained its automatic gas tax indexing, would it have been enough to keep up with needs and rising costs?

Probably not. But, if they did a one time increase, and then froze the automatic indexing until such point as the one-time increase matches what the gas tax would have eventually been, they'd have a higher income for several years to pay for larger projects that the steady tax increase might not pay for (due to inflation). All while still maintaining the steady increase for maintenance and other basic improvements.
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WarrenWallace

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2151 on: July 11, 2018, 03:13:07 PM »

But will never happen in the current environment.  State officials are on record saying that any money received from online sales tax would be offset with cuts to other parts of the budget.  Which to me is just dumb.
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jakeroot

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2152 on: July 11, 2018, 04:06:30 PM »

But will never happen in the current environment.  State officials are on record saying that any money received from online sales tax would be offset with cuts to other parts of the budget.  Which to me is just dumb.

So they're struggling with what they have, yet don't want any more money? I am so confused.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2153 on: July 11, 2018, 04:17:26 PM »

But will never happen in the current environment.  State officials are on record saying that any money received from online sales tax would be offset with cuts to other parts of the budget.  Which to me is just dumb.



So they're struggling with what they have, yet don't want any more money? I am so confused.
It's very simple when you think of it in these terms:  Scott Walker will be running for President in 2024 and doesn't want anything resembling a tax hike on his record.
quote fix --sso
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:43:03 PM by SSOWorld »
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jakeroot

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2154 on: July 11, 2018, 05:56:23 PM »

But will never happen in the current environment.  State officials are on record saying that any money received from online sales tax would be offset with cuts to other parts of the budget.  Which to me is just dumb.

So they're struggling with what they have, yet don't want any more money? I am so confused.

It's very simple when you think of it in these terms:  Scott Walker will be running for President in 2024 and doesn't want anything resembling a tax hike on his record.

Well, I'd rather have a tax hike than a budgetary shortfall on my record. I'd say more but this thread'll get locked.
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2155 on: July 16, 2018, 10:56:53 AM »

But will never happen in the current environment.  State officials are on record saying that any money received from online sales tax would be offset with cuts to other parts of the budget.  Which to me is just dumb.



So they're struggling with what they have, yet don't want any more money? I am so confused.
It's very simple when you think of it in these terms:  Scott Walker will be running for President in 2024 and doesn't want anything resembling a tax hike on his record.
quote fix --sso
I really doubt he would run for president again. He wasn't even a top contender when he ran and was 2nd only to Rick Perry to drop out. The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants. And they are always replacing signs that are by no means in need of replacement.
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jakeroot

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2156 on: July 16, 2018, 02:40:41 PM »

But will never happen in the current environment.  State officials are on record saying that any money received from online sales tax would be offset with cuts to other parts of the budget.  Which to me is just dumb.

So they're struggling with what they have, yet don't want any more money? I am so confused.

It's very simple when you think of it in these terms:  Scott Walker will be running for President in 2024 and doesn't want anything resembling a tax hike on his record.

I really doubt he would run for president again. He wasn't even a top contender when he ran and was 2nd only to Rick Perry to drop out. The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants. And they are always replacing signs that are by no means in need of replacement.

Which projects do you think were unpopular?

Seems like WisDOT is spending money like they used to, however, they aren't taking money in like they once were.

You either have a high budget, and high-quality infrastructure. Or, a low budget, and crumbling infrastructure. I don't know what the situation is in Wisconsin, but over here in Washington, WSDOT is having to spend a lot of money on maintenance and rebuilding because many of our freeways and major arterials are coming to the end of their original lifespan. This wasn't a major problem twenty years ago, like it is now. Stuff like the new 520 bridge, or new 99 tunnel, were only built because the original infrastructure was inadequate for modern times, mostly because of structural fragility. There were other advantages to rebuilding, but the weren't the primary one. From the 70s to the 90s, if they weren't building new roads, they were improving existing ones to meet new demand. This often resulted in freeways with two types of pavement: the original (not yet old enough to need replacing), and the new.

Wisconsin, like many state DOTs who might have deferred maintenance, has two priorities right now: rebuild and maintain existing structures, and improve the infrastructure to meet demand. Doing both at the same time requires a very large budget.

Here in Washington, there have been three major gas tax increases since 2000. Many of the projects funded as part of these increases were new projects that improved flow, sometimes by rebuilding what already existed, and improving it by adding lanes, etc. WSDOT could not have funded many of their new projects without a gas tax increase, because the main yearly operating budget goes primarily to maintenance. Capital improvement programs are a separate section of the budget, and are usually the bits funded by gas tax increases.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2157 on: July 16, 2018, 06:52:01 PM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2158 on: July 17, 2018, 04:30:41 PM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money. From what I understood the Burlington bypass was not very well supported won there at the time it was being built. They also go ahead and build roundabouts even if it's not in the interest of the community to becasue they always act like they know better. The Hwy 18 and 83 one in Wales was widely opposed by local officials there.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:36:51 PM by dvferyance »
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DaBigE

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2159 on: July 17, 2018, 04:39:12 PM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?
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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2160 on: July 17, 2018, 10:16:25 PM »

Maybe instead of making expressways into freeways that didnít need to be and four-laning roads that donít need to be and pouring more money into dumb Foxconn shit, they could have put more money into the freeway connecting the stateís two largest cities.
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jakeroot

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2161 on: July 18, 2018, 02:52:05 AM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?

inb4 "signs that existed before modern reflectivity requirements are allowed to stay up until the end of their useful life".

End of useful life could mean "when they are no longer reflective" (i.e. not readable unless hit with direct light). This requires replacement.

Further, it seems to me that many new signs across Wisconsin are the result of changes to intersection or interchange geometry, generally necessitating new signage. From an outsider's perspective, Wisconsin does seem to have made a lot of changes in geometry over the last 15 years.
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DaBigE

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2162 on: July 18, 2018, 09:17:00 AM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?

inb4 "signs that existed before modern reflectivity requirements are allowed to stay up until the end of their useful life".

Based on dvferyance reoccurring complaint, that shouldn't be an issue.
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jakeroot

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2163 on: July 18, 2018, 02:05:57 PM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?

inb4 "signs that existed before modern reflectivity requirements are allowed to stay up until the end of their useful life".

Based on dvferyance reoccurring complaint, that shouldn't be an issue.

I always thought their gripe was with roundabouts, not signs.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2164 on: July 18, 2018, 02:55:15 PM »

The real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you donít like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money. From what I understood the Burlington bypass was not very well supported won there at the time it was being built. They also go ahead and build roundabouts even if it's not in the interest of the community to becasue they always act like they know better. The Hwy 18 and 83 one in Wales was widely opposed by local officials there.

Hmm...

https://journaltimes.com/news/local/burlington-bypass-set-to-open-thursday/article_c2e61861-5bdc-5fb7-b951-6d1707266f96.html

https://journaltimes.com/news/local/getting-around-burlington---bypass-opens-in-its-entirety/article_546c49b2-e5a9-11df-a614-001cc4c03286.html

Those two articles make it seem like they were looking forward to it.

As for the roundabout in Wales, i just spent the past 20 minutes trying to find anything that shows that there was "wide opposition" to it. I came up with nothing. While I'm sure there were people against it (there always is) there's nothing to show it was widely panned.

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.

Plus, neither of those projects came at the expense of anything else, especially since they were enumerated before the freeze on the gas tax.

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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2165 on: July 18, 2018, 04:48:21 PM »

Didn't the Burlington Bypass have widespread opposition to it before it was constructed? wisconsinhighways.org stated Burlington and the nearby towns all passed resolutions opposing the bypass. Also, does anyone know if residents of Burlington have changed their opinions in the years since the bypass was completed?
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GeekJedi

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2166 on: July 18, 2018, 06:53:16 PM »

Didn't the Burlington Bypass have widespread opposition to it before it was constructed? wisconsinhighways.org stated Burlington and the nearby towns all passed resolutions opposing the bypass. Also, does anyone know if residents of Burlington have changed their opinions in the years since the bypass was completed?

My understanding was they opposed it due to the route (and the four lanes) and not the necessity.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2167 on: July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM »

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.
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tribar

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2168 on: July 19, 2018, 10:43:51 AM »

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2169 on: July 19, 2018, 02:17:21 PM »

Honestly lights are just easier.

That's actually one of the selling points of roundabouts. They force you to pay attention and drive more carefully. It's one of the reasons they like them for congested or dangerous intersections.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2170 on: July 19, 2018, 02:42:53 PM »

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.


Eh.  It's Green Bay.  Saving me two minutes isn't that big of a deal.


Honestly lights are just easier.

That's actually one of the selling points of roundabouts. They force you to pay attention and drive more carefully. It's one of the reasons they like them for congested or dangerous intersections.


As I said, I get it.  That doesn't mean I like it!   :sombrero:
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2171 on: July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM »

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Well there is not an unlimited amount of money and they are costly. My point many times it is not in the interest of the community but they will go ahead with it anyways regardless of public opinion. And they shouldn't becasue it's our money they are spending. The Waukesha west bypass was another one that was not generally liked by the residents of the west side of Waukesha. Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2172 on: July 19, 2018, 08:51:59 PM »

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Well there is not an unlimited amount of money and they are costly. My point many times it is not in the interest of the community but they will go ahead with it anyways regardless of public opinion. And they shouldn't becasue it's our money they are spending. The Waukesha west bypass was another one that was not generally liked by the residents of the west side of Waukesha. Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.


You keep saying roundabouts are costly.  They aren't in the long run when compared to a traffic signal.

And no, locals should not get a veto over traffic projects that impact the transportation system at large.  They aren't paid by local taxes.  They are paid by state and federal taxes.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2173 on: July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM »

Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #2174 on: July 20, 2018, 12:20:30 AM »

The way I see it, someone has three options:
  • Get a high-ranking job at WisDOT
  • Get elected to state politics
  • Move to Illinois
Until that someone does one of those three things, stop bitching about the same things over, and over, and over, and over again with little or no empirical evidence to support those complaints.

Are 5 roundabouts in a row annoying? Arguably, but they sure beat 5 out-of-sync traffic lights in a row or someone using arterial timing to combat cruising (looking at you, Madison). Despite what some think, WisDOT's not putting roundabouts in just to piss people off.
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