Cryptic word messages on traffic signs

[agentsteel53]

Not necessarily.  That sign is a reference to the basic speed law in Massachusetts (General Laws, chapter 90, section 17), which begins:  "No person operating a motor vehicle on any way shall run it at a rate of speed greater than is reasonable and proper."  A "thickly settled" area is defined in chapter 90, section 1 as either:

1) an area of houses with an average separation of less than 200 feet over a distance of 1/4 mile or more, or
2) a business district.

Exceeding 30 mph for 1/8 mile or more in a thickly settled district is prima facie evidence of unreasonable speed, although at a hearing the cited driver is permitted to introduce evidence that the speed was reasonable at the time.

I got my driver's license in Massachusetts and even I don't remember that!  I can't imagine any out-of-stater knowing it.

then again, I barely understand what "prima facie" means.  as far as I can tell, it's "does the jurisdiction need the revenue today?"

[J N Winkler]

I got my driver's license in Massachusetts and even I don't remember that!  I can't imagine any out-of-stater knowing it.

It is conceptually similar to how 30 MPH zones are defined in Britain--any road illuminated by a system of streetlighting with columns spaced no further than 200 yards apart is subject to a 30 limit (with certain defined exclusions, which trigger a requirement that repeater signs be used to indicate that a limit other than 30 is in effect).  However, the law in Britain also requires that 30 MPH speed limit roundels be used at the entries to 30 MPH zones thus defined before the 30 limit is enforceable.

then again, I barely understand what "prima facie" means.  as far as I can tell, it's "does the jurisdiction need the revenue today?"

Prima facie basically means conditional liability.  If you exceed the limit and are cited for it, you can rebut the presumption of liability by presenting evidence to show that your speed was not unsafe or unreasonable under the conditions.  If you do not present rebutting evidence, or the evidence you do present is not accepted, then you are held criminally liable.  With so-called "absolute" speed limits the liability is strict and unconditional:  you cannot acknowledge that you were going above the speed limit and escape the liability by arguing that the speed was not unsafe or unreasonable.

I don't feel prima facie limits represent a genuine concession to motorists since the evidentiary hurdles that must be climbed in order to prove a given speed was not unsafe or unreasonable under the conditions in which the speeding citation was issued are quite high.  The exact conditions are generally impossible to reproduce precisely in every detail (Heraclitus:  "Nobody steps in the same river twice"), and the witnesses most likely to be believed by the judge or jury work for the other side.  It is much more fruitful to hunt for some technical fault which makes the speeding citation legally insufficient:  defects in signing, defects in calibration and certification of the enforcement equipment, defects in legal documentation of the speed limit, illegal operation of a speed trap in a jurisdiction which prohibits speed trapping, etc.

[agentsteel53]

indeed, it seems one's best bet to get out of a ticket is to get on the officer's good side at the time of the traffic stop!

and no, there is absolutely no way in Hell I would know that the street lighting in Britain influenced the speed limit.  is there a sign to this effect at the borders?

continental European unsigned speed limits are much more well-defined - the various road classifications and "built up area" signs are consistent, and the speeds assigned to them are announced at international borders.

[mgk920]

Regarding cryptic messages, the average motorist might scratch his head at the signs in Florida that say "PREPASS Follow In-Cab Signals." These signs appear in advance of weigh stations and are targeted at truck drivers. They're an example of a sign where the people who need to know what it means will understand it.

Not just Florida. This sign bugs the hell out of me, because it's the only one I still haven't figured out. (In fact, before I looked it up online the first time, I invented my own concept of "prepassing" that still gets stuck in my head.)

Yea, 'Prepass™' is a pre-clearence system that allows big-rigs that have been pre-cleared to bypass truck scales and inspection stations while en route.  They use in-cab signal transponders that are tied to a nationwide system.

http://www.prepass.com

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The one that had me scratching my head the first time that I saw it were the 'DON'T BLOCK THE BOX' signs in NYC.

Mike

[SidS1045]

the usage renders it unintuitive.  you see it in rural parts of the state where the population density is 20% more than surrounding farmlands - but you don't see it in Boston, or in suburbs!

I'd have to guess that this is because, under the legal definition of a "thickly settled" district, it might not be immediately obvious in an otherwise rural setting that you're driving in one.  In Boston or the suburbs it's a no-brainer.

[SidS1045]

I got my driver's license in Massachusetts...

...as did I.

...and even I don't remember that!  I can't imagine any out-of-stater knowing it.

It's actually quite rare these days that there isn't a posted limit in most areas of Massachusetts, including "thickly settled" districts.  I recalled it only because it was drilled into us in driver-ed way back when, in a time when there were fewer posted speed limits and you really had to know the prima facie limits to stay out of trouble.  I think it was also on my learner's permit test.

[english si]

and no, there is absolutely no way in Hell I would know that the street lighting in Britain influenced the speed limit.  is there a sign to this effect at the borders?

No, but whenever you enter a 30 zone (or a 20 zone, rather than a 20 limit, which is different), the limit is signed at the entrance, just not inside the limit. 30 repeaters exist where the street lighting doesn't exist and the limit's 30. Repeaters exist where the limit is higher than 30 and street lighting does exist, other than on motorways (where the default limit is 70, even if single carriageway) and in 20 zones (which have to be physically impossible to do more than 20mph).

The Highway Code says "* The 30 mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise."

I should point out that street lighting doesn't affect the speed limit, it just affects the signage of the speed limit (NSL has repeaters with street lights, 30mph doesn't). The specific distance between lights is to stop the odd light every half mile or whatever confusing people as to whether the area is 'built up' or not.

continental European unsigned speed limits are much more well-defined - the various road classifications and "built up area" signs are consistent, and the speeds assigned to them are announced at international borders.

But at the same time, they are just as unsigned once in them. If you've seen a 30 sign (on both sides of the carriageway), and not seen another speed limit sign, the limit is 30mph.

In France, etc you see a 'welcome to town x' to tell you that the limit is 50km/h, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see the town sign with the red line through it and that's the end of the limit.

In the UK, you see a 30 sign to tell you that the limit is 30mph, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see another speed limit sign and that's the end of the limit.

It's identical, though more intuitively descriptive.

[cpzilliacus]

In France, etc you see a 'welcome to town x' to tell you that the limit is 50km/h, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see the town sign with the red line through it and that's the end of the limit.

In the UK, you see a 30 sign to tell you that the limit is 30mph, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see another speed limit sign and that's the end of the limit.

It's identical, though more intuitively descriptive.

In some European nations, you will sometimes see a sign like this (from the Web site of the Finnish Transport Agency):



It means that you are entering an "area" where the speed limit is 40 k/h, until a sign like this is passed:



I don't think I have seen anything like that in my (limited, and not driving) travels in the UK.

[1995hoo]

....

I don't think I have seen anything like that in my (limited, and not driving) travels in the UK.

I have driven in the UK but do not recall signs like those. I recall the round sign with the diagonal black bar meaning the national speed limit applies.

This page that's linked on the Highway Code's website suggests they have a sign similar in concept to the second one you posted–it shows the new speed limit with a smaller legend at the bottom indicating the end of the reduced speed limit zone. Nice idea, although in theory who cares what the limit was in the area you just left if you're no longer subject to that limit?

[agentsteel53]

It's actually quite rare these days that there isn't a posted limit in most areas of Massachusetts, including "thickly settled" districts.  I recalled it only because it was drilled into us in driver-ed way back when, in a time when there were fewer posted speed limits and you really had to know the prima facie limits to stay out of trouble.  I think it was also on my learner's permit test.

indeed, to me the regions of unposted speed limits in MA are more a novelty than anything else.  isn't the state's default speed limit still 40mph?  I recall finding a 1960s "END SPEED ZONE" with no corresponding speed limit sign in 2006 on some obscure town road out near Brimfield.  I believe I had been going about 25 because it was poor pavement and visibility, and I stayed at 25.  It was probably many years since that road could safely be navigated at 40mph, if ever.

given the age in your profile, you indeed must have had a very different driver's ed experience from me.  I got my license in 1997 and don't remember much of the details, other than that there was only one thing I did during the driving part of the exam which could in any way decide if I was a good driver or not: pull over safely for an ambulance.  the rest was all legalities and the ability to parallel park.

[agentsteel53]

what is the difference between a "zone" and a "limit" in the UK?

the way the original description was presented, it made it sound like there was no "30" sign and one was supposed to know, solely from the presence of light posts, that the speed limit has changed.

[vtk]

and no, there is absolutely no way in Hell I would know that the street lighting in Britain influenced the speed limit.  is there a sign to this effect at the borders?

Unless the foreign drivers are coming in via Ireland, I don't think signs "at the borders" would be very effective.

[agentsteel53]

Unless the foreign drivers are coming in via Ireland, I don't think signs "at the borders" would be very effective.

hah, good point.  at ports of entry.  I recall seeing a standard German national speed limit summary sign at one of the exits of Frankfurt airport.

[J N Winkler]

I have driven in the UK but do not recall signs like those. I recall the round sign with the diagonal black bar meaning the national speed limit applies.

That is the normal treatment--I have only ever seen cancel bars on a specific speed limit (as distinct from the standard NSL sign) used in the UK for the ends of twenty zones.

This page that's linked on the Highway Code's website suggests they have a sign similar in concept to the second one you posted–it shows the new speed limit with a smaller legend at the bottom indicating the end of the reduced speed limit zone. Nice idea, although in theory who cares what the limit was in the area you just left if you're no longer subject to that limit?

That is a special sign intended for use only at the exits to twenty zones.  (I haven't checked, but I am reasonably certain TSRGD does not allow the number within the cancelled roundel to be varied to anything but 20.)

what is the difference between a "zone" and a "limit" in the UK?

In practice, not much--speed limits of whatever kind generally get zone-based signing:  in other words, you are told the speed limit as you enter the zone, and then you get no repeaters within the zone unless special circumstances apply, e.g. a speed limit other than 30 MPH on an all-purpose road within a street-lit area.

This is a completely different approach from the US, where it is routine to transition to a higher or lower limit (e.g., when turning from a residential subdivision street to an arterial) and then be left guessing as to what limit applies until you pass a speed limit sign after the next major intersection.  The British system is a hairsplitter's wet dream but is far less ambiguous.

the way the original description was presented, it made it sound like there was no "30" sign and one was supposed to know, solely from the presence of light posts, that the speed limit has changed.

No--you do get a 30 MPH roundel at all entries to an area where the speed limit is 30 by virtue of streetlighting with lamp columns no further than 200 yards apart.  Unlike many continental European countries (Italy, e.g.), the UK does not require you to guess the speed limit as you enter a built-up area, or try to remember it from among several listed on a basic speed law sign as you enter the country.  (There is no basic speed law sign in Britain as such, though there are nonprescribed signs saying "Drive on left" in multiple languages at landside exits from ferry ports.)

As you enter a village or other area where a 30 limit applies, the 30 roundel will typically appear on the same signpost as the village name sign.  It may be on its own sign panel, or it may be combined with the village name sign on an aircraft-gray backing board.  The two forms of installation are legally equivalent (at least in Great Britain--I think TSRGD requires that the backing board be rectangular in format, while in Northern Ireland the Traffic Signs Regulations--which are completely different from TSRGD since NI has its own road traffic law--allow the backing board to be scalloped around a 30 roundel mounted above the village name sign).  Then, as English Si says, you are not supposed to see any 30 repeaters within the village, and as you leave the village, you will see just a NSL sign (no village name sign with a cancel bar).  This contrasts with the situation in France, Spain, Italy, and other continental European countries, where you do not get a 50 km/h roundel entering the village or a NSL sign leaving the village--instead you get just the village name sign on entry and the cancelled version of same on exit.

A "repeater" is a scaled-down version of the regular speed limit sign.  It is meant to be used only for roads which have unusual speed limits, e.g. urban dual carriageways (not motorways) with street lighting and 40 limits.  A repeater is not the speed limit roundel patched onto an informatory sign, such as the sign advising of the presence of speed cameras (blue background, white border, showing the speed camera graphic above a 30 roundel).

Confused enough yet?

[empirestate]

The one that had me scratching my head the first time that I saw it were the 'DON'T BLOCK THE BOX' signs in NYC.

Ah yes, that of course being a reference to anti-gridlock laws. Now, gridlocking is already illegal not only in NYC, but throughout the country. It's just that NYC paints handy hachures in the intersection; that's the "box" you may not block. So those signs are reminding you of the reminder to the law, and only indirectly of the law itself.

[1995hoo]

....  (There is no basic speed law sign in Britain as such, though there are nonprescribed signs saying "Drive on left" in multiple languages at landside exits from ferry ports.)

....

I also recall seeing a sign like that on the road that serves the on-airport car hire locations at the airport in Edinburgh. Seems logical enough, at least at the major airports, although frankly the first time I got behind the wheel of a rented VW Passat at the Avis location in Edinburgh I found that having the bulk of the car to my left (instead of my right) and shifting with my left hand were themselves more than enough of a reminder to drive on the other side. Obviously I understand why the ferry ports, and any other place where there might be more left-drive vehicles, would be a different scenario.

[SidS1045]

isn't the state's default speed limit still 40mph?

20mph in a school zone, 30 in a thickly settled area, 40 on a non-divided highway outside a thickly settled area and 50 on a divided highway outside a thickly settled area.  The "basic" speed law in MA is still "reasonable and proper."

given the age in your profile, you indeed must have had a very different driver's ed experience from me.  I got my license in 1997 and don't remember much of the details, other than that there was only one thing I did during the driving part of the exam which could in any way decide if I was a good driver or not: pull over safely for an ambulance.  the rest was all legalities and the ability to parallel park.

I got my first license exactly 30 years before you did, but my wife didn't get hers until 1995 (born in NYC, so she never felt the need to learn until we moved to the Boston suburbs) and I coached her on both the written and driving tests, so I had to brush up on what had changed since I got my license.  The road tests are still administered by State Police officers (I think we're the only state remaining where this is true) and there must be a "sponsor" in the vehicle (someone over 21 with at least one year of driving experience) who sits directly behind the testee and otherwise keeps his/her mouth shut.  My wife was not asked to parallel-park, and when I got my license the only required parking manuever was angle-parking.  I had to learn parallel parking the hard way.

[J N Winkler]

....  (There is no basic speed law sign in Britain as such, though there are nonprescribed signs saying "Drive on left" in multiple languages at landside exits from ferry ports.)

....

I also recall seeing a sign like that on the road that serves the on-airport car hire locations at the airport in Edinburgh. Seems logical enough, at least at the major airports, although frankly the first time I got behind the wheel of a rented VW Passat at the Avis location in Edinburgh I found that having the bulk of the car to my left (instead of my right) and shifting with my left hand were themselves more than enough of a reminder to drive on the other side. Obviously I understand why the ferry ports, and any other place where there might be more left-drive vehicles, would be a different scenario.

It doesn't surprise me that you saw one of these signs leaving Edinburgh Airport.  Although TSRGD is an all-GB statutory instrument, the central road authorities in England, Wales, and Scotland all have the legal ability to issue their own authorizations for nonprescribed signs (i.e., signs which are not diagrammed in TSRGD and are not a "permitted variant" of a sign so diagrammed, and thus are given legal force by a general provision which allows the minister to approve specific signs on a case-by-case basis).

Scotland issues blanket authorizations for certain types of signs, such as countdown markers for reduced speed limits, and I think it has one for "Keep left" signs at airport exits.  I know it has a specific authorization for Glasgow Airport.  I am not aware that "Keep left" signs are used at any airports in England--I have seen them only at ferry ports such as Dover.

I know that Italy posts basic speed law signs at airport exits but this practice is far from universal in Europe.  I don't remember seeing such signs at airports in Spain, Switzerland, or France (though they are diagrammed as standard signs in the traffic signing regulations in the first two countries, and possibly the third).

[agentsteel53]

I had to learn parallel parking the hard way.

in a box truck in downtown Boston?

[english si]

I am not aware that "Keep left" signs are used at any airports in England--I have seen them only at ferry ports such as Dover.

And all over Kent. IIRC, there are a few in ferry terminals and container ports, like Southampton and Portsmouth. There are also signs leaving Dover telling you what the National speed limit is and giving you a conversion to km/h. The border between Ireland and Northern Ireland simply have "Speed limits in <units>" under the border-marking speed limit sign.
[/quote]

what is the difference between a "zone" and a "limit" in the UK?

In practice, not much--speed limits of whatever kind generally get zone-based signing:  in other words, you are told the speed limit as you enter the zone, and then you get no repeaters within the zone unless special circumstances apply, e.g. a speed limit other than 30 MPH on an all-purpose road within a street-lit area.

with the exception of 20 zones. And you get repeaters on speed limits other than national speed limit on an all-purpose road outside a street-lit area.

IIRC, the difference between zones and limits is fairly recent - I think when 20 zones came into play. A 20 limit is just like any non-30 limit in a built up area - signed with repeaters. A 20 zone is not, but there has to be physical barriers (humps, chicanes) that stop people from doing more than 20mph. I was using zone as 'no repeaters' and limit as 'repeaters' off the back of this.

The British system is a hairsplitter's wet dream but is far less ambiguous.

yes - certainly there have been cases of people caught speeding in a 30 limit trying to see whether the lampposts are 201ft apart to get off on a technicality!

Then, as English Si says, you are not supposed to see any 30 repeaters within the village, and as you leave the village, you will see just a NSL sign (no village name sign with a cancel bar).

You might see them if there's areas without street lighting, eg here

A repeater is not the speed limit roundel patched onto an informatory sign, such as the sign advising of the presence of speed cameras (blue background, white border, showing the speed camera graphic above a 30 roundel).

Confused enough yet?

You forgot the signs that get put up on roads 'recently' lowered to 30 that look like this and say "it's 30 for a reason". In this case, the reason was that a councillor got it lowered - there was perhaps a consistency that all roads inside the bypass were 30, but I don't see what was wrong with the old limit of 40 and there were no accident stats to back it up.

[SidS1045]

I had to learn parallel parking the hard way.

in a box truck in downtown Boston?

You're not that far off.  In my dad's 1953 Oldsmobile 98...WITHOUT power steering.

[sp_redelectric]

if a railroad crossing is paved over, is it still a railroad crossing?

I've seen many instances where the railroad crossing signals remain in place for many years, because they are owned by the railroad.  They often take their sweet time removing them.

Like this one, on Lancaster Drive S.E. in Salem, Oregon.

Railroad's been gone for 10, 15 years now.  Notice the railroad right-of-way has been taken over.  But the signal hardware is still there.

Or...it's too inconvenient to shut down a road to remove the railroad hardware, so the track outside of the crossing will be removed but the crossing itself lingers around, like this one on N.E. Evergreen Parkway in Hillsboro, Oregon, where the railroad has been abandoned since the mid-1990s.

When you get into industrial spurs (tracks that lead to a single business or group of businesses) there are dozens of such examples.  Some of these tracks are so seldom used that I've seen some of them marked as "exempt" even though they are still active tracks - meaning when the trains come through, the train has to be flagged by a crew member and actually yield to road traffic until road traffic stops.  There is one such crossing in Vancouver on S.E. Columbia Way; unfortunately the Google Maps car hasn't driven down that road...

[sp_redelectric]

Yeah, the HC signs were puzzling the first time I saw them as well.

On U.S. 26 the "HM" (with the red circle/cross) signs confused quite a few people.  However, there are explanatory signs as well that also clearly state that vehicles carrying hazardous materials must not get onto U.S. 26 (from I-405 or downtown Portland), or must use Oregon 217 (from Beaverton).

However, there are no "HM" (with a green circle) sign designating the permitted route.  You're on your own to figure out the official permitted route is I-5 to Oregon 99W to Oregon 217 (or I-5 direct to 217) to U.S. 26.  Or Cornelius Pass Road, or Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway.

[apeman33]

Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?

North Carolina uses a version of that: "State Law [underscore separator] Burn Headlights When Using Wipers." The signs aren't particularly big nor prominent, either. "Invisible cars" in the rain or snow are a pet peeve of mine and I wish these signs would be made very noticeable.

The Tar Heel State also posts "Motorcycles Burn Headlights" at many (most?) (all?) highways entering the state.

Last night, I saw Missouri's version: "Lights on when wipers required."

[agentsteel53]

Some of these tracks are so seldom used that I've seen some of them marked as "exempt" even though they are still active tracks - meaning when the trains come through, the train has to be flagged by a crew member and actually yield to road traffic until road traffic stops. 

there is a railyard in Florida on either current or former FL-67 where something comparable to this happened to me.  the lights were flashing, the gates were down...

a switch engine was stopped just to the side of the road, and a crewman was waving cars through.  it seems to me that the switch engine tripped the lights automatically, but since it was going back and forth so many times, it made sense for someone to manually wave cars through when it was safe.