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Author Topic: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN  (Read 9791 times)

Mdcastle

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 10:00:36 PM »

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Bickendan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 04:19:49 PM »

That 218 being taller then the 14 o.0
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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 04:35:01 PM »

That 218 being taller then the 14 o.0

Taller or skinnier?
3 digit numbers never look great on a 2 digit shield.  Unless, maybe, if two of the digits are "1".
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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 05:21:35 PM »

One thing I have noticed is approaching US 14 southbound on I-35, there is a sign which says US 218 Austin for that particular exit. More to the point, it does not have a TO in front of it.



I had noticed this too while going through old photos earlier this week.  Unless the sign was changed since then, it refutes what I'd seen on the signage plans 5 years ago and further marks it as odd that they'd post the standalone "TO US 218" shield shown in Monte's photo.

Quote from: triplemultiplex
Quote from: Bickendan
That 218 being taller then the 14 o.0

Taller or skinnier?

The taller part, I'd presume.  The skinniness is MnDOT standard (using a 2-digit shield for standalones and using Series C if it's 3 digits), but the height of those 218 numerals is out of standard.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:25:21 PM by froggie »
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 06:26:30 PM »

Quote from: triplemultiplex
Quote from: Bickendan
That 218 being taller then the 14 o.0

Taller or skinnier?

The taller part, I'd presume.  The skinniness is MnDOT standard (using a 2-digit shield for standalones and using Series C if it's 3 digits), but the height of those 218 numerals is out of standard.

To me that particular shield looks like it uses Series B digits. Reminds me of Iowa US-218 shields:



Which if that's the case, that shield is a real oddball because Minnesota otherwise never uses series B for them.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 06:31:21 PM by MNHighwayMan »
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hbelkins

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2017, 11:06:00 AM »

Iowa used to do signs (other than the arrows) right...

2017 Upper Midwest Trip Day 2 - 240 by H.B. Elkins, on Flickr

Then crap like this started showing up...

2017 Upper Midwest Trip Day 2 - 243 by H.B. Elkins, on Flickr


That 218 being taller then the 14 o.0

Taller or skinnier?
3 digit numbers never look great on a 2 digit shield.  Unless, maybe, if two of the digits are "1".

See, I disagree. I prefer the narrower fonts and square blanks over the wider ones. It makes for better sign assembly symmetry. I was distressed to see Iowa going to the wider signs for three-digit US and state routes on a recent journey there.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2017, 11:34:20 AM »

To me, the skinny font 3dUS signs are like watching a movie in the wrong aspect ratio.
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hbelkins

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2017, 04:09:06 PM »

To me, the skinny font 3dUS signs are like watching a movie in the wrong aspect ratio.

I may be a little older than you, but they were like that in Kentucky when I was growing up. About the time Kentucky switched to the Type II reflective sheeting (the honeycomb design) on its signs, most of the state went to the wide signs for three-digit US routes and three- and four-digit state routes. I hated it.
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2017, 04:32:30 PM »

To me, the skinny font 3dUS signs are like watching a movie in the wrong aspect ratio.

I may be a little older than you, but they were like that in Kentucky when I was growing up. About the time Kentucky switched to the Type II reflective sheeting (the honeycomb design) on its signs, most of the state went to the wide signs for three-digit US routes and three- and four-digit state routes. I hated it.

Minnesota only seriously started using wide shields within the last ten years or so. The new US-212 freeway, completed in 2008, still uses the square shields (an example).

And I agree, I prefer them too.
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froggie

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2017, 12:23:45 PM »

Much newer than that.  Except for MN 210 along its I-94 concurrency (where they appeared about a dozen years ago or so), the wide standalone shields have only really started showing up in the past 2-3 years.
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SSOWorld

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2017, 12:57:39 PM »

Wisconsin still uses the square shields (you only see the wide version for the 2 3dis in Milwaukee) on its trailblazer and surface unisigns.  Only recently has WisDOT given up its need to use rectangular on the guide signs - even for 151 and 141.
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2017, 02:03:17 PM »

Much newer than that.  Except for MN 210 along its I-94 concurrency (where they appeared about a dozen years ago or so), the wide standalone shields have only really started showing up in the past 2-3 years.

You're probably right, I was just being very conservative with my estimate. The first major installation of wide standalone shields I remember seeing was way back in 2012, when I drove MN-149. These were sprinkled all over the route.

Edit: It was notable enough that I even took a picture of the back of the sign showing the 2005(!) stickers.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:09:25 PM by MNHighwayMan »
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2018, 08:01:29 PM »

I emailed MNDoT, asking about the discrepancy between route description and route signage.  Here is the relevant portion of the response I received:

Quote
Thanks for taking the time to note and explain what you saw. We appreciate it. It appears this was changed when the new US TH 14 was constructed and US 218 beginning and ending locations should not have been changed.

We will be moving the WB TH 14 sign closer to I-35 and then EB TH 14 we will remove the "TO" above the US 218 route marker with a "SOUTH" plaque.  We are preparing the work orders to do this.

We try to catch most changes -- and we've got a great batting average in doing so -- but sometimes something gets past us as we try to monitor, maintain or replace nearly 50,000 in our 11-county district. We appreciate the extra set of eyes and the willingness to spend a few moments to ask the question.

Wow, they're actually going to fix it because of your email.  That's pretty cool.

And it's been fixed! (Admittedly probably has been for a bit now.) Stopped by today to check.

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Bickendan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2018, 09:56:28 PM »

I'm surprised MNDOT didn't also include a Laura Ingalls Wilder Highway sign to the assembly.
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2018, 03:59:18 AM »

Not 100 percent on this, but I think that name only applies to the western section of US-14. Something like the section west of New Ulm. Perhaps someone else can set me straight on this. (There used to be a document on the MnDOT website which defined all the named routes like that, but right now I can't seem to find it--if it's even still available.)

What I find more interesting about this display is the use of tabs without the larger first letter, and that they put up a square 218, but left room on the assembly for the potential future wide shield. If you compare my picture to Mdcastle's picture upthread you'd see that they had a chance to change both, but oddly didn't.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 04:14:42 AM by MNHighwayMan »
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froggie

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2018, 09:34:09 AM »

Not 100 percent on this, but I think that name only applies to the western section of US-14. Something like the section west of New Ulm. Perhaps someone else can set me straight on this. (There used to be a document on the MnDOT website which defined all the named routes like that, but right now I can't seem to find it--if it's even still available.)

Historic named Auto Trails
Scenic Byways

Though not specifically on MnDOT's website, prominant named highways (memorial/historic highways and some of the old auto trails) are encoded in Section 161.14 of the state statutes.  In this case, the Black and Yellow Trail covers all of US 14 within Minnesota.  Laura Ingalls Wilder Historic Highway covers all of US 14 west of Rochester (west of Olmsted CSAH 22 specifically).

Quote
What I find more interesting about this display is the use of tabs without the larger first letter, and that they put up a square 218, but left room on the assembly for the potential future wide shield.

Square is still the default for 3-digit standalone shields.  And MnDOT typically leaves space between adjacent signs so I would not take your photo as an indication they left room for a wider shield.
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2018, 10:40:11 AM »

Square is still the default for 3-digit standalone shields.  And MnDOT typically leaves space between adjacent signs so I would not take your photo as an indication they left room for a wider shield.

While that's a good point, I don't necessarily think square shields are default anymore, given the widespread appearance of wide shields in the last several years, as we discussed upthread.
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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2018, 11:50:27 AM »

In this case though I doubt they replaced the 218 shield itself, just the tab above it. But that still lends to the point about all the letters being the same size. Maybe to stay uniform with the “EAST”?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 11:52:32 AM by TheHighwayMan394 »
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Mdcastle

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2018, 05:09:22 PM »

Yes, I know which document you're thinking of. I recall seeing it but I can't find it either now
Not 100 percent on this, but I think that name only applies to the western section of US-14. Something like the section west of New Ulm. Perhaps someone else can set me straight on this. (There used to be a document on the MnDOT website which defined all the named routes like that, but right now I can't seem to find it--if it's even still available.)

What I find more interesting about this display is the use of tabs without the larger first letter, and that they put up a square 218, but left room on the assembly for the potential future wide shield. If you compare my picture to Mdcastle's picture upthread you'd see that they had a chance to change both, but oddly didn't.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/maps/gdma/data/maps/memorial_routes.pdf
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2018, 07:44:39 PM »

In this case though I doubt they replaced the 218 shield itself, just the tab above it. But that still lends to the point about all the letters being the same size. Maybe to stay uniform with the “EAST”?

It looks different than the one in Mdcastle's photo, though (it looks normal instead of with those tall narrow digits). I suppose it could be a sign that was replaced either before or during the plaque switch.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/maps/gdma/data/maps/memorial_routes.pdf

That's the exact thing I was looking for! Thanks! (This time I'll save it so I always have it. ;-))
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 11:42:35 PM by MNHighwayMan »
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US 89

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2018, 11:29:06 PM »

To me, the skinny font 3dUS signs are like watching a movie in the wrong aspect ratio.

I may be a little older than you, but they were like that in Kentucky when I was growing up. About the time Kentucky switched to the Type II reflective sheeting (the honeycomb design) on its signs, most of the state went to the wide signs for three-digit US routes and three- and four-digit state routes. I hated it.

Minnesota only seriously started using wide shields within the last ten years or so. The new US-212 freeway, completed in 2008, still uses the square shields (an example).

And I agree, I prefer them too.

I’m not sure which one I prefer. The square ones are more symmetric (especially when they’re used in combination with other signs), but the wide ones look a little cleaner to me.

Utah is the same story: it appears a switch to wide shields for 3dus routes was made around 2010 or so. But instead of using series B narrow font like the IA and MN photos above, they used smaller series C font like the WY photo (which made for a lot of empty space in the shield above and below the numbers). It’s not like it really mattered a whole lot anyway, since every one of Utah’s 3dus route numbers has a 1 in it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 12:36:11 AM by roadguy2 »
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2018, 11:50:59 PM »

I’m not sure which one I prefer. The square ones are more symmetric (especially when they’re used in combination with other signs), but the wide ones look a little cleaner to me.

Utah is the same story: it appears a switch to wide shields for 3dus routes was made around 2010 or so. But instead of using series B narrow font like the IA and MN photos above, they used smaller series C font like the WY photo (which made for a lot of empty space in the shield above and below the numbers). It’s not like it really mattered a whole lot anyway, since every one of Utah’s 3dus route numbers has a 1 in it.

As was mentioned above, the 218 shield in Mdcastle's photo is an oddity for Minnesota. 24" square 3di US shields in Minnesota are supposed to use Series C (assuming that Series D digits don't fit width-wise) with 10" numerals, but that thing in his picture looks like it uses taller digits. The US-218 shield in my picture from Friday afternoon is a much better (if not completely accurate) representation of what they're supposed to look like.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 11:54:41 PM by MNHighwayMan »
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Bickendan

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2018, 10:45:54 PM »

Not 100 percent on this, but I think that name only applies to the western section of US-14. Something like the section west of New Ulm. Perhaps someone else can set me straight on this. (There used to be a document on the MnDOT website which defined all the named routes like that, but right now I can't seem to find it--if it's even still available.)

Historic named Auto Trails
Scenic Byways

Though not specifically on MnDOT's website, prominant named highways (memorial/historic highways and some of the old auto trails) are encoded in Section 161.14 of the state statutes.  In this case, the Black and Yellow Trail covers all of US 14 within Minnesota.  Laura Ingalls Wilder Historic Highway covers all of US 14 west of Rochester (west of Olmsted CSAH 22 specifically).


The routing gets interesting at Olmstead CSAH 22. I was under the impression that Laura Ingalls Wilder Historic Highway essentially followed US 14 and US 52 from South Dakota to Iowa through Minnesota, but reading the route description, it turns out it splits into a three-legged route at Olmstead 22, but the description is... out of date.
It says US 14 from SD to CSAH 22, then CSAH 22's southwestern leg back to US 14, US 14 to US 63, where it splits. But US 63 doesn't go through Rochester on Broadway anymore; it takes US 52 along the freeway. Leaving that aside, the northern branch goes up Broadway until US 63 rejoins the road north of Rochester, then up to US 61 in Lake City, where it turns southeast toward Wabasha, then east on MN 60 into Wisconsin, implying at least a short portion of WI 25 is part of the route.
The southern branch would then be Broadway, US 63 south of US 52 down to MN 16 in Spring Valley, then east on MN 16 to US 52, and southeast on US 52 to Iowa.

Outside the Rochester segment needing some updating and/or revision (US 14, Civic Center Dr, split at Broadway?, split at US 52/Civic Center Dr?), I'm curious if IA, SD, or WI recognize and route the highway at all, and where the termini would be.
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Mdcastle

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2018, 11:15:17 PM »

Since we're on the subject, the signs for the "Czech Heritage Highway" actually read "Czech Memorial Highway, I don't know if this is a goof or deliberate

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Re: Need photos: US 218 truncated in Owatonna, MN
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2018, 09:18:21 PM »

...I'm curious if IA, SD, or WI recognize and route the highway at all, and where the termini would be.

FWIW, this was taken in SD in 2004 (possibly in DeSmet, but not certain).
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