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Author Topic: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge  (Read 44734 times)

sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #200 on: December 10, 2019, 05:45:47 PM »

As I've said before, I think that's really intended for pre-existing roadways being incorporated into the system, less so for new construction.

IMO, replacing / widening an adequate bridge on a future interstate corridor simply to meet the width of the remainder of the roadway shouldn't be the only thing preventing an entire corridor from being designated. Also, there's more than likely other pre-existing substandard bridges on busier interstate routes in the state (whatever state is at question) that have far more priority to be replaced / widened.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #201 on: December 10, 2019, 05:59:07 PM »

IMO, replacing / widening an adequate bridge on a future interstate corridor simply to meet the width of the remainder of the roadway shouldn't be the only thing preventing an entire corridor from being designated. Also, there's more than likely other pre-existing substandard bridges on busier interstate routes in the state (whatever state is at question) that have far more priority to be replaced / widened.

Fine.  Focus on them first before allowing Interstate designation on a highway that has bridges that would have been substandard back in the 1970s.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #202 on: December 10, 2019, 06:09:23 PM »

IMO, replacing / widening an adequate bridge on a future interstate corridor simply to meet the width of the remainder of the roadway shouldn't be the only thing preventing an entire corridor from being designated. Also, there's more than likely other pre-existing substandard bridges on busier interstate routes in the state (whatever state is at question) that have far more priority to be replaced / widened.

Fine.  Focus on them first before allowing Interstate designation on a highway that has bridges that would have been substandard back in the 1970s.
My point is if the rest of the road meets interstate standards with the exception of a single bridge, that should not restrict the other 99.9% of the road to be designated, and it doesn't. That's reflected under official interstate standards, and FHWA has and continue to permit it. See my above comments about I-295 in North Carolina.

If you restrict the designation because a single bridge, now the state is going to have to take out funds to widen / replace it, even if it's completely adequate as is, and competing with other actual needed bridge widening / replacement projects.

Now, if an entire routing is substandard, meaning a narrow cross section thruout, low clearance bridges, numerous narrow bridges, etc. then it definitely needs a full face lift before receiving the designation, and that would be a project for the road itself mostly, not strictly for an interstate designation.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #203 on: December 10, 2019, 08:21:43 PM »

Fine.  Focus on them first before allowing Interstate designation on a highway that has bridges that would have been substandard back in the 1970s.
My point is if the rest of the road meets interstate standards with the exception of a single bridge, that should not restrict the other 99.9% of the road to be designated, and it doesn't.
Oh, come on, it's not "99.9%."

The ones I complain about it's more like 10-20% or more, effectively.  Multiple bridges, including the 1,000+ foot long bridge where disabled vehicles and minor-accident vehicles can't get off of the roadway; plus "short" bridges where the cost of shoulders on a bridge 200 feet long or less is a proportionally small cost and it obviates the aforementioned problems that even a small shoulderless bridge can cause.

The parallel HRBT trestle was built with full shoulders and opened in 1976.  A typical example.  I have no sympathy for substandard shoulder designs in 2019.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #204 on: December 10, 2019, 08:36:38 PM »

Oh, come on, it's not "99.9%."
You're right... the completed I-295 beltway will be 39 miles long from either end of I-95, and the two bridges combined are 1,530 feet that have 4 foot right shoulders.

That's only 99.3% of the length remaining that has an interstate cross section, not 99.9%.

Reasonably though, the two bridges could have the outside 4 foot shoulders widened to 10 feet eventually. The two bridges are 840 and 690 feet long, and were only built back in 2003. I think the biggest priority now though is completing the remaining southern half of the beltway. A new 7-mile section just opened two weeks ago, and another on tract to open next year. After that, there's two more sections to be built, one from I-95 northwards currently under construction, and the last piece slated to begin construction next year.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 08:41:46 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #205 on: December 10, 2019, 09:00:48 PM »

Oh, come on, it's not "99.9%."
You're right... the completed I-295 beltway will be 39 miles long from either end of I-95, and the two bridges combined are 1,530 feet that have 4 foot right shoulders.
That's only 99.3% of the length remaining that has an interstate cross section, not 99.9%.
So averaging that is two bridges each 765 feet long, where disabled vehicles and minor-accident vehicles can't get off of the roadway.

So when the highway backs up for 2 miles (or more), we can exult in the fact that only 0.7% of the mileage has no shoulders. 

Hopefully nobody will have to be shoveled up.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #206 on: December 10, 2019, 09:05:24 PM »

Oh, come on, it's not "99.9%."
You're right... the completed I-295 beltway will be 39 miles long from either end of I-95, and the two bridges combined are 1,530 feet that have 4 foot right shoulders.
That's only 99.3% of the length remaining that has an interstate cross section, not 99.9%.
So averaging that is two bridges each 765 feet long, where disabled vehicles and minor-accident vehicles can't get off of the roadway.

So when the highway backs up for 2 miles (or more), we can exult in the fact that only 0.7% of the mileage has no shoulders. 

Hopefully nobody will have to be shoveled up.
Anybody ever been shoveled up here? Here?
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #207 on: December 10, 2019, 09:30:24 PM »

So averaging that is two bridges each 765 feet long, where disabled vehicles and minor-accident vehicles can't get off of the roadway.
So when the highway backs up for 2 miles (or more), we can exult in the fact that only 0.7% of the mileage has no shoulders. 
Hopefully nobody will have to be shoveled up.
Anybody ever been shoveled up here? Here?
Not sure, but that is a 1958 design and a 1965 design; probably subtract 3 years for design approval year, as those are the opening years.

Things were permissible back then that would be substandard if designed today.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #208 on: December 10, 2019, 09:42:50 PM »

So averaging that is two bridges each 765 feet long, where disabled vehicles and minor-accident vehicles can't get off of the roadway.
So when the highway backs up for 2 miles (or more), we can exult in the fact that only 0.7% of the mileage has no shoulders. 
Hopefully nobody will have to be shoveled up.
Anybody ever been shoveled up here? Here?
Not sure, but that is a 1958 design and a 1965 design; probably subtract 3 years for design approval year, as those are the opening years.

Things were permissible back then that would be substandard if designed today.
Whether built in 1958, 1965, or 2003, they all equally serve today's traffic needs, and your criticism (though valid) to I-295 applies equally to I-95 and I-85. Just as much as NCDOT should widen the bridge to include full shoulders, VDOT should widen those bridges to include full shoulders. Just as much as Maryland should include full shoulders on the Nice bridge.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 09:49:21 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #209 on: December 10, 2019, 09:56:40 PM »

Whether built in 1958, 1965, or 2003, they all equally serve today's traffic needs, and your criticism (though valid) to I-295 applies equally to I-95 and I-85. Just as much as NCDOT should widen the bridge to include full shoulders, VDOT should widen those bridges to include full shoulders. Just as much as Maryland should include full shoulders on the Nice bridge.
No. 

New freeways and freeway segments and major bridges should be built to modern standards, and that includes the Nice Bridge.  The idea that they should be allowed without shoulders just because every 50+ year old bridge hasn't been widened is fallacious.
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Alps

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #210 on: December 10, 2019, 10:55:33 PM »

Whether built in 1958, 1965, or 2003, they all equally serve today's traffic needs, and your criticism (though valid) to I-295 applies equally to I-95 and I-85. Just as much as NCDOT should widen the bridge to include full shoulders, VDOT should widen those bridges to include full shoulders. Just as much as Maryland should include full shoulders on the Nice bridge.
No. 

New freeways and freeway segments and major bridges should be built to modern standards, and that includes the Nice Bridge.  The idea that they should be allowed without shoulders just because every 50+ year old bridge hasn't been widened is fallacious.
What do you mean "no"? He just said the exact point you're saying.

Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #211 on: December 10, 2019, 11:05:36 PM »

Whether built in 1958, 1965, or 2003, they all equally serve today's traffic needs, and your criticism (though valid) to I-295 applies equally to I-95 and I-85. Just as much as NCDOT should widen the bridge to include full shoulders, VDOT should widen those bridges to include full shoulders. Just as much as Maryland should include full shoulders on the Nice bridge.
No. 

New freeways and freeway segments and major bridges should be built to modern standards, and that includes the Nice Bridge.  The idea that they should be allowed without shoulders just because every 50+ year old bridge hasn't been widened is fallacious.
What do you mean "no"? He just said the exact point you're saying.
I see that the "no" applies to his first two sentences.

The third would indeed be a "yes."
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #212 on: December 11, 2019, 08:05:31 AM »

Whether built in 1958, 1965, or 2003, they all equally serve today's traffic needs, and your criticism (though valid) to I-295 applies equally to I-95 and I-85. Just as much as NCDOT should widen the bridge to include full shoulders, VDOT should widen those bridges to include full shoulders. Just as much as Maryland should include full shoulders on the Nice bridge.
No. 

New freeways and freeway segments and major bridges should be built to modern standards, and that includes the Nice Bridge.  The idea that they should be allowed without shoulders just because every 50+ year old bridge hasn't been widened is fallacious.
What do you mean "no"? He just said the exact point you're saying.
I see that the "no" applies to his first two sentences.

The third would indeed be a "yes."
Why shouldn't existing bridges be widened to full shoulders for safety?

Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #213 on: December 11, 2019, 08:14:20 AM »

Whether built in 1958, 1965, or 2003, they all equally serve today's traffic needs, and your criticism (though valid) to I-295 applies equally to I-95 and I-85. Just as much as NCDOT should widen the bridge to include full shoulders, VDOT should widen those bridges to include full shoulders. Just as much as Maryland should include full shoulders on the Nice bridge.
No.   New freeways and freeway segments and major bridges should be built to modern standards, and that includes the Nice Bridge.  The idea that they should be allowed without shoulders just because every 50+ year old bridge hasn't been widened is fallacious.
What do you mean "no"? He just said the exact point you're saying.
I see that the "no" applies to his first two sentences.
The third would indeed be a "yes."
Why shouldn't existing bridges be widened to full shoulders for safety?
I didn't say that existing bridges shouldn't be widened to full shoulders for safety.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #214 on: February 13, 2020, 11:54:37 PM »

Contract awarded for the replacement of the Harry W. Nice/Thomas "Mac" Middleton Bridge that carries U.S. 301 between King George County, Virginia and Charles County, Maryland.

This was apparently awarded by the MDTA Board in 2019, but I just heard about it.

MDTA announcement (includes video).

ENR: Skanska-Led Team Aims for Early 2020 Start on $463M Maryland Bridge
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:58:18 PM by cpzilliacus »
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #215 on: February 14, 2020, 05:50:41 AM »

Extensive discussion upthread, including complaints about lack of full shoulders!
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seicer

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #216 on: February 14, 2020, 07:52:09 AM »

"To expand practical access, the new Nice/Middleton Bridge will include several safety enhancements for bicyclists, including bicycle-friendly roadway joints and intelligent transportation systems tools such as lighting and signage."

Bull****.
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #217 on: February 14, 2020, 07:57:46 AM »

"To expand practical access, the new Nice/Middleton Bridge will include several safety enhancements for bicyclists, including bicycle-friendly roadway joints and intelligent transportation systems tools such as lighting and signage."

Bull****.

Note they didn't say bicycle-friendly lanes! LOL
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #218 on: February 14, 2020, 08:07:19 AM »

"To expand practical access, the new Nice/Middleton Bridge will include several safety enhancements for bicyclists, including bicycle-friendly roadway joints and intelligent transportation systems tools such as lighting and signage."
That 2 foot shoulder besides 60+ mph traffic will be a major improvement!
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #219 on: February 14, 2020, 08:35:16 AM »

Contract awarded for the replacement of the Harry W. Nice/Thomas "Mac" Middleton Bridge that carries U.S. 301 between King George County, Virginia and Charles County, Maryland.

This was apparently awarded by the MDTA Board in 2019, but I just heard about it.

MDTA announcement (includes video).

ENR: Skanska-Led Team Aims for Early 2020 Start on $463M Maryland Bridge

Skanska also presided over the building of the cable-stayed Delaware 1 bridge over Indian River Inlet.

ixnay
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #220 on: February 14, 2020, 10:09:30 AM »

"To expand practical access, the new Nice/Middleton Bridge will include several safety enhancements for bicyclists, including bicycle-friendly roadway joints and intelligent transportation systems tools such as lighting and signage."  Bull****.
Body bag up for safety.

Skanska also presided over the building of the cable-stayed Delaware 1 bridge over Indian River Inlet.
They did a good job from a construction management standpoint.
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #221 on: February 14, 2020, 01:04:09 PM »

Seriously, they should at least have full right shoulders.  IMO they should just ban bikes from the bridge, given that it will be a four-lane divided highway with traffic going by at 60 mph and nowhere for the bikes to go but the travel lanes.  The shoulders would also have provided space for a vehicle to go if they break down.  I don't understand how this travesty was allowed.

It's not good for cars either - who wants to slow down from 60 to 15 because they're stuck behind a bike?  And that's assuming they even see the bike, since nobody would expect a bike to be in the main travel lane on that type of road!  What was Maryland even thinking?
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #222 on: February 14, 2020, 02:20:26 PM »

I respect the idea of having a bicycle facility, especially given that there is nowhere else to cross the Potomac south of the Wilson Bridge, but I really wonder how many cyclists they actually expect to get on that bridge. While I know there is a naval facility on the Virginia side, are there really that many bike commuters heading there from Southern Maryland? I highly doubt it. I'm sure there might be some long-distance cyclists on occasion, or the occasional person like my brother who used to do 100-mile rides while training for a Pittsburgh-to-DC charity ride, but are there really enough to justify the expense of a fully-separated bike facility?
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #223 on: February 14, 2020, 02:49:23 PM »

I respect the idea of having a bicycle facility, especially given that there is nowhere else to cross the Potomac south of the Wilson Bridge, but I really wonder how many cyclists they actually expect to get on that bridge. While I know there is a naval facility on the Virginia side, are there really that many bike commuters heading there from Southern Maryland? I highly doubt it. I'm sure there might be some long-distance cyclists on occasion, or the ocasional person like my brother who used to do 100-mile rides while training for a Pittsburgh-to-DC charity ride, but are there really enough to justify the expense of a fully-separated bike facility?

What is being built now does not accommodate bike traffic.  A two foot shoulder next to freeway-speed traffic is IMO inherently unsafe. 

$64 million sounds like a lot of money, but spread over an expected 100 year lifespan of this structure, it's  a lot less. 

This is also prime long-distance bike riding territory - fairly flat, and a long biking season.  On the Virginia side of the bridge, there's also the King George Rail Trail, which uses the old railroad to NSF Dahlgren. The trail runs west to VA-605 near the landfill and refuse incinerator at Sealston and ends there because trash is brought in by railroad to this facility, so the Navy rail spur is an active railroad between Sealston and the RF&P subdivision of CSX in Fredericksburg.
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Re: U.S. 301 Governor Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge
« Reply #224 on: February 14, 2020, 03:05:03 PM »

I respect the idea of having a bicycle facility, especially given that there is nowhere else to cross the Potomac south of the Wilson Bridge, but I really wonder how many cyclists they actually expect to get on that bridge. While I know there is a naval facility on the Virginia side, are there really that many bike commuters heading there from Southern Maryland? I highly doubt it. I'm sure there might be some long-distance cyclists on occasion, or the ocasional person like my brother who used to do 100-mile rides while training for a Pittsburgh-to-DC charity ride, but are there really enough to justify the expense of a fully-separated bike facility?

What is being built now does not accommodate bike traffic. ....

Right, I understood that, but the other folks were speculating on whether there should be a facility.
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