Snow removal

[hbelkins]

Starting a new thread off the PennDOT vs. Turnpike snow removal discussion.

Before a storm, putting salt out is senseless.  Just like a candy wrapper flying around from passing vehicles, most of the salt on a dry road has nothing to stick to, and will mostly be breezed over to the shoulders.  Sure, some salt gets crushed by passing vehicles, but compared to what is being spread on the roads, the benefits are minute.

That's why brine is preferred before a storm. But even then, after the storm intensifies, there's not much that can be done to keep the roads cleared until after the storm is over, or the road temp rises to about 32 degrees.

Kentucky uses brine to pre-treat the roads, but the misconception is that its presence will melt the snow that falls. The actuality is that the brine on the road makes it more difficult for the initial accumulation to stick to the road surface, and thus easier to plow away.

Some people refer to the solution as "salt brine," which really frosts my flakes. Talk about redundancy. The definition of "brine" is "salt water."

Kentucky will occasionally pre-treat with salt in problem spots (hills, curves and intersections) on roads with very light traffic volumes. The amount and speed of traffic in these locations typically does not disperse the salt from the roadway as described above in the "candy wrapper" scenario.

[DaBigE]

Starting a new thread off the PennDOT vs. Turnpike snow removal discussion.

Before a storm, putting salt out is senseless.  Just like a candy wrapper flying around from passing vehicles, most of the salt on a dry road has nothing to stick to, and will mostly be breezed over to the shoulders.  Sure, some salt gets crushed by passing vehicles, but compared to what is being spread on the roads, the benefits are minute.

That's why brine is preferred before a storm. But even then, after the storm intensifies, there's not much that can be done to keep the roads cleared until after the storm is over, or the road temp rises to about 32 degrees.

Kentucky uses brine to pre-treat the roads, but the misconception is that its presence will melt the snow that falls. The actuality is that the brine on the road makes it more difficult for the initial accumulation to stick to the road surface, and thus easier to plow away.

Some people refer to the solution as "salt brine," which really frosts my flakes. Talk about redundancy. The definition of "brine" is "salt water."

Kentucky will occasionally pre-treat with salt in problem spots (hills, curves and intersections) on roads with very light traffic volumes. The amount and speed of traffic in these locations typically does not disperse the salt from the roadway as described above in the "candy wrapper" scenario.

Various municipalities around Wisconsin have been experimenting with brine pre-treatments for a few years now. A couple, (Sun Prairie, WI is one of them), have been experimenting with a beet juice-based pre-treatment, which supposedly has the same benefits of the brine, but is friendlier to your undercarriage and concrete.

[NE2]

Florida lets it melt.

[tradephoric]

Is the beet juice safe to drink?   

[Road Hog]

Snow and ice aren't uncommon here, but TxDOT mostly will just spread sand at intersections and on bridges and overpasses to improve traction, and that simple solution works fairly well.

If it's really bad, they will bring out a magnesium chloride mix called MD20. They are loath to use straight salt because of the corrosiveness, and I agree with that.

[cpzilliacus]

Starting a new thread off the PennDOT vs. Turnpike snow removal discussion.

Before a storm, putting salt out is senseless.  Just like a candy wrapper flying around from passing vehicles, most of the salt on a dry road has nothing to stick to, and will mostly be breezed over to the shoulders.  Sure, some salt gets crushed by passing vehicles, but compared to what is being spread on the roads, the benefits are minute.

That's why brine is preferred before a storm. But even then, after the storm intensifies, there's not much that can be done to keep the roads cleared until after the storm is over, or the road temp rises to about 32 degrees.

Kentucky uses brine to pre-treat the roads, but the misconception is that its presence will melt the snow that falls. The actuality is that the brine on the road makes it more difficult for the initial accumulation to stick to the road surface, and thus easier to plow away.

Maryland (at least on state-maintained toll and "free" roads) also does this, for exactly the  reason you cite above.

Some people refer to the solution as "salt brine," which really frosts my flakes. Talk about redundancy. The definition of "brine" is "salt water."

<smile> 

Excellent observation.

Rather like "VIN number" or "ATM machine."

Kentucky will occasionally pre-treat with salt in problem spots (hills, curves and intersections) on roads with very light traffic volumes. The amount and speed of traffic in these locations typically does not disperse the salt from the roadway as described above in the "candy wrapper" scenario.

If the people driving the snow and ice treatment routes can time it right (not always possible), it is wonderful if they can hit those problem spots (such as long bridges and flyovers) right as the frozen stuff starts to fall.

[cpzilliacus]

Various municipalities around Wisconsin have been experimenting with brine pre-treatments for a few years now. A couple, (Sun Prairie, WI is one of them), have been experimenting with a beet juice-based pre-treatment, which supposedly has the same benefits of the brine, but is friendlier to your undercarriage and concrete.

Maryland SHA has been doing this in some of its districts as well. 

[1995hoo]

At the opposite extreme, I recall during the so-called "Blizzard of 1996" the authorities in Durham, NC, where I was attending school at the time, refused to begin any plowing operations whatsoever as long as snow was falling because they said it made no sense to plow if more snow would just fall where they'd already cleared.   

It didn't help matters at all that when the snow stopped and they finally began plowing, it turned out that the county only owned one plow and it promptly broke down.

[hbelkins]

Snow and ice aren't uncommon here, but TxDOT mostly will just spread sand at intersections and on bridges and overpasses to improve traction, and that simple solution works fairly well.

If it's really bad, they will bring out a magnesium chloride mix called MD20. They are loath to use straight salt because of the corrosiveness, and I agree with that.

My wife was in the DFW area year before last, around the time of the Super Bowl, because she won a ticket to the Fan Jam (or whatever they called it). Duran Duran and Kid Rock were the two featured artists. The roads down there were horrible and she said TxDOT was completely inept in dealing with the wintry precipitation, especially with so many people coming to the area for the Super Bowl.

The main roads she was on (I-30, TX 121, etc.) were snow- and ice-covered and treacherous, she said.

[cpzilliacus]

Snow and ice aren't uncommon here, but TxDOT mostly will just spread sand at intersections and on bridges and overpasses to improve traction, and that simple solution works fairly well.

If it's really bad, they will bring out a magnesium chloride mix called MD20. They are loath to use straight salt because of the corrosiveness, and I agree with that.

My wife was in the DFW area year before last, around the time of the Super Bowl, because she won a ticket to the Fan Jam (or whatever they called it). Duran Duran and Kid Rock were the two featured artists. The roads down there were horrible and she said TxDOT was completely inept in dealing with the wintry precipitation, especially with so many people coming to the area for the Super Bowl.

The main roads she was on (I-30, TX 121, etc.) were snow- and ice-covered and treacherous, she said.

In defense of state DOT's that are relatively far south (in the East, that means someplace south of Virginia), it really does not make sense for them to have huge fleets of snow removal equipment.  Examples include most (all?) of Florida, and the Low Country of South Carolina (that part of the Palmetto State gets a decent snowfall every 10 or 20 years).

Interestingly, SCDOT does post numerous signs in  the Low Country warning that bridge decks ice before other parts of  its highway system.

[jeffandnicole]

It's almost a given that someone in any given state will claim that the state to the north of them can plow snow so much better.  Which, generally, is true, because the state to the north will have more equipment to deal with snow and ice, where that precip is more common.  It wouldn't make sense for Texas or Florida to have snow plows, salt sheds, and other winter equipment available. 

Yet, when I travelled to Minnesota to watch an Eagles/Vikings playoff game, I was surprised to find parking lots covered in snow/ice and the streets in Minneapolis with plowed snow in the parking lanes.  Thus, the opinion that they can plow it better where snow/ice is more common isn't always true. 

The heated parking garages were nice though. 

[agentsteel53]

It's almost a given that someone in any given state will claim that the state to the north of them can plow snow so much better.  Which, generally, is true, because the state to the north will have more equipment to deal with snow and ice, where that precip is more common.  It wouldn't make sense for Texas or Florida to have snow plows, salt sheds, and other winter equipment available. 

Yet, when I travelled to Minnesota to watch an Eagles/Vikings playoff game, I was surprised to find parking lots covered in snow/ice and the streets in Minneapolis with plowed snow in the parking lanes.  Thus, the opinion that they can plow it better where snow/ice is more common isn't always true. 

The heated parking garages were nice though. 

some states will plow to a level of service which fits with the drivers' competence.  Anchorage often has huge berms of snow in the shared left turn lanes of downtown arterial roads, and drivers are expected to not hit them when making a left turn.

[KEK Inc.]

There's multiple issues with brine...  Corrosion being the big one.  It's cheap, though.

WSDOT primarily uses liquid chemicals like magnesium chloride on the roads.  They did in Clark County when we had our surprise snow storm.  We only got an inch of snow, but it followed up with 5 days of sub-freezing sunny days, so the snow kept sun-melting and icing over at night in an area that rarely gets these conditions.   You can see the MgCl trails on the roads.   

[Special K]

Thus, the opinion that they can plow it better where snow/ice is more common isn't always true.  

Even if it was ugly, it was still likely better.

[jeffandnicole]

Thus, the opinion that they can plow it better where snow/ice is more common isn't always true.  

Even if it was ugly, it was still likely better.

From what I remember, no it wasn't.  It was surprisingly bad!

[wxfree]

I remember reading about TxDOT's Dallas and Fort Worth districts buying snow plow equipment after the Super Bowl mishap.  Plows were brought in from Wichita Falls and Amarillo, but they were far away and still weren't that many of them.  Around here we get ice more than snow, and they spread sand and mostly just wait for it to melt.  In times past people would try to stay home, although more recently people seem to be more insistent about going out regardless of the weather.  We've never been ready for a big event during which large numbers of people go out during a big storm.  It just isn't worthwhile to make such a big investment for something so rare.

Each district got about 15 plows, which still isn't a whole lot, but they can be combined if only one side is affected.  Snow storms around here frequently affect only part of the area.  NTTA got 9 plows.  They have a much smaller system, but need their roads to be a open and in good condition for the sake of revenue.

[Brandon]

It's almost a given that someone in any given state will claim that the state to the north of them can plow snow so much better.  Which, generally, is true, because the state to the north will have more equipment to deal with snow and ice, where that precip is more common.  It wouldn't make sense for Texas or Florida to have snow plows, salt sheds, and other winter equipment available. 

Yet, when I travelled to Minnesota to watch an Eagles/Vikings playoff game, I was surprised to find parking lots covered in snow/ice and the streets in Minneapolis with plowed snow in the parking lanes.  Thus, the opinion that they can plow it better where snow/ice is more common isn't always true. 

The heated parking garages were nice though. 

some states will plow to a level of service which fits with the drivers' competence.  Anchorage often has huge berms of snow in the shared left turn lanes of downtown arterial roads, and drivers are expected to not hit them when making a left turn.

Ditto with snow plowing and sanding in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.  The state, counties, and municipalities will plow down just far enough to leave a crust of snow that they mix sand with and let freeze into an icy concrete-type surface.  They expect drivers to be able to handle their vehicles on that surface.  Of course, they also expect drivers to be able to figure out the roadway without any lines on it during the winter months as well since the snow obscures the lines.  They do help out; however, by marking both the beginning and ending of a no passing zone with the pennant on the left, a "Do Not Pass" sign on the right at the beginning, and a "Pass With Care" sign at the end.  Some parts of the UP can see over 200 inches of snow in a season.

Then there's places like Chicagoland where people expect clear streets within a day of a major storm such as the Groundhog Day Blizzard of 2011.  And, the streets were more than passable within a day of the storm.  It's just a given that the municipal, county, and state trucks will be outfitted with plows, and the roadways salted everywhere.  Even the garbage trucks in some municipalities (Chicago in particular) will be outfitted with plows to aid in clearing the streets.  Chicago commonly sees 40 inches of snow in a season.

[cpzilliacus]

Then there's places like Chicagoland where people expect clear streets within a day of a major storm such as the Groundhog Day Blizzard of 2011.  And, the streets were more than passable within a day of the storm.  It's just a given that the municipal, county, and state trucks will be outfitted with plows, and the roadways salted everywhere.  Even the garbage trucks in some municipalities (Chicago in particular) will be outfitted with plows to aid in clearing the streets.  Chicago commonly sees 40 inches of snow in a season.

In New York City, the Sanitation Department has primary responsibility for plowing the streets, so most (all?) trash trucks have plows.

[agentsteel53]

Then there's places like Chicagoland where people expect clear streets within a day of a major storm such as the Groundhog Day Blizzard of 2011.

the night I spent in Anchorage saw 16 inches of snow fall.  it was passable by mid-morning and perfectly fine by early afternoon.

but that is not a "major storm" by Anchorage standards.

[corco]

some states will plow to a level of service which fits with the drivers' competence.  Anchorage often has huge berms of snow in the shared left turn lanes of downtown arterial roads, and drivers are expected to not hit them when making a left turn.

Where I am now in Montana, they plow the business loop through town, leaving it in the center lanes and just let snow accumulate on all the other roads and have cars pack it down- the ice pack on the roads right now is thicker than the snow on the ground!

[Brandon]

In New York City, the Sanitation Department has primary responsibility for plowing the streets, so most (all?) trash trucks have plows.

Likewise in Chicago, it's the Department of Streets and Sanitation, commonly referred to as "Streets and San".  Most other municipalities contract out garbage removal to a third party, but they do contract for extra snow removal equipment from time to time.

[cpzilliacus]

In New York City, the Sanitation Department has primary responsibility for plowing the streets, so most (all?) trash trucks have plows.

Likewise in Chicago, it's the Department of Streets and Sanitation, commonly referred to as "Streets and San".  Most other municipalities contract out garbage removal to a third party, but they do contract for extra snow removal equipment from time to time.

In the District of Columbia, DDOT and its contractors handle snow plowing and treatment responsibilities.   Years ago, D.C. used to put plows on its refuse collection vehicles, but they don't do that any longer.

[kphoger]

Mexico just uses bags of salt, along with two cops to stand around and watch.

[cpzilliacus]

Mexico just uses bags of salt, along with two cops to stand around and watch.

Is the caption for the above image "Salting in Saltillo?"

[KEK Inc.]

In Seattle, SDOT has the one plow that takes 5 days to clear the roads when we get a serious snow storm.   

In all seriousness, the Seattle area and Portland area get shut down if we get more than 3" of accumulation since we don't get snow often enough to justify a fleet of plows.  Close proximities to the Pacific Ocean and large bodies of water (Puget Sound, Columbia/Willamette Rivers) keeps the climate relatively above freezing when weather systems come in.