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Author Topic: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway  (Read 133634 times)

Brandon

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #225 on: November 04, 2015, 12:48:31 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

*ahem* No.  Too easy to cheat, and requires more government than we have now.  Tolls are better.  I also think we should charge for electricity at those charging stations.
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Rothman

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #226 on: November 04, 2015, 01:25:22 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

*ahem* No.  Too easy to cheat, and requires more government than we have now.

Government will ensure that you can't cheat. :>
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Brandon

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #227 on: November 04, 2015, 01:31:55 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

*ahem* No.  Too easy to cheat, and requires more government than we have now.

Government will ensure that you can't cheat. :>

We know, they cheat enough on their own.  :pan:
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #228 on: November 04, 2015, 03:53:37 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

Rubbish.

Absolutely terrible idea, especially when driving across state lines or simply driving on private property for that matter.

Tolls are a much better idea at the end of the day. Don't like tolls? Find another road.
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #229 on: November 04, 2015, 03:55:48 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

*ahem* No.  Too easy to cheat, and requires more government than we have now.  Tolls are better.  I also think we should charge for electricity at those charging stations.

We already pay tax on electricity. Furthermore, how would that even work in residential homes? Two electric meters?
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Brandon

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #230 on: November 04, 2015, 04:25:17 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

*ahem* No.  Too easy to cheat, and requires more government than we have now.  Tolls are better.  I also think we should charge for electricity at those charging stations.

We already pay tax on electricity. Furthermore, how would that even work in residential homes? Two electric meters?

I'm talking about the quick charge stations showing up at some stores and gas stations.  Right now, they're free.  IMHO, they should be charged for the electricity they use to refuel plus tax.
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #231 on: November 04, 2015, 06:25:41 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

*ahem* No.  Too easy to cheat, and requires more government than we have now.  Tolls are better.  I also think we should charge for electricity at those charging stations.

We already pay tax on electricity. Furthermore, how would that even work in residential homes? Two electric meters?

I'm talking about the quick charge stations showing up at some stores and gas stations.  Right now, they're free.  IMHO, they should be charged for the electricity they use to refuel plus tax.

What's stopping someone from avoiding those chargers and just charging at home?

I assume most of those people do anyways. I think I read somewhere on the Leaf forums someone charged up at the tollway oasis for $7 compared to $1-2 compared to charging at home.

To save $5, I'd rather charge at home as well, unless I really needed some juice.
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Rothman

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #232 on: November 05, 2015, 11:44:38 AM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

Rubbish.

Absolutely terrible idea, especially when driving across state lines or simply driving on private property for that matter.


I don't see the issue with driving across state lines or driving on private property.  Gas tax affects you no matter where you drive as well.

Make it a federal tax and divvy it back out to the states.
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #233 on: November 05, 2015, 05:18:57 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

Rubbish.

Absolutely terrible idea, especially when driving across state lines or simply driving on private property for that matter.


I don't see the issue with driving across state lines or driving on private property.  Gas tax affects you no matter where you drive as well.

Make it a federal tax and divvy it back out to the states.

Because so much of the federal gas tax goes back to roads?

I read on somewhere, only 50-60% of the federal gas tax even ends up going back to the roads. How about we fix that first before we start come up with extremely convoluted taxing schemes?

To make matters even more complex, most millenials just move to X,Y, or Z large city and just use public transportation and ditch their car.

Tolls just seem more straightforward since it doesn't require any more complexities (or government looking to see how much I'm driving or where I'm driving.)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 05:22:44 PM by johndoe780 »
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I-39

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #234 on: November 05, 2015, 06:14:52 PM »

Gas tax ain't bringing in what it used to and it won't anymore. You can hike it as much as you want, but people are buying and using electric cars or hybrids. Tolls are the most equitable way of taxing the roads. Y

*ahem*  VMT tax. :>

Rubbish.

Absolutely terrible idea, especially when driving across state lines or simply driving on private property for that matter.


I don't see the issue with driving across state lines or driving on private property.  Gas tax affects you no matter where you drive as well.

Make it a federal tax and divvy it back out to the states.

Because so much of the federal gas tax goes back to roads?

I read on somewhere, only 50-60% of the federal gas tax even ends up going back to the roads. How about we fix that first before we start come up with extremely convoluted taxing schemes?

To make matters even more complex, most millenials just move to X,Y, or Z large city and just use public transportation and ditch their car.

Tolls just seem more straightforward since it doesn't require any more complexities (or government looking to see how much I'm driving or where I'm driving.)

Then by your logic, we need to toll ALL roads, not just Interstates/limited-access highways. Why bother having DOT's if the Tollway is to run everything? Why should I have to pay for a road originally and then have it tolled so I have to pay again to use it (basically what the EOWA has become).

The reason the gas tax brings in smaller and smaller revenue is that is has not be raised in most states (and federally) in over 20 years. If it was actually raised periodically, it would bring in revenue to maintain roads and for capital projects. I do agree though, that taxes should be placed on any new source of fuel cars may get in the future (whether that be electric or something else)

Getting back to Illinois, other states surrounding it can build new highways without toll booths. Why can't Illinois? The problem is state government mismanagement of IDOT and lack of innovation within that department. If Illinois actually got competent government, we could have built the EOWA as a free road (like it should have been).

I do not mind the existing toll road system staying in place, but it should not be expanded any further (with the exception of the IL-53 extension). Expanding it to include the EOWA is just stupid, especially when the original road was paid for with tax dollars. Now the tollway will have a monopoly on all the commuter routes into Chicago and O'Hare. There should be a free (limited access highway) alternative. Also, the tollway is wasting its money building the EOWA since it won't even connect with western access to O'Hare. They would have been better off using the resources they are using on the EOWA to rebuild the I-90/I-290/IL-53 interchange and build the IL-53 extension.
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #235 on: November 05, 2015, 07:12:58 PM »

Quote

Then by your logic, we need to toll ALL roads, not just Interstates/limited-access highways. Why bother having DOT's if the Tollway is to run everything? Why should I have to pay for a road originally and then have it tolled so I have to pay again to use it (basically what the EOWA has become).

The reason the gas tax brings in smaller and smaller revenue is that is has not be raised in most states (and federally) in over 20 years. If it was actually raised periodically, it would bring in revenue to maintain roads and for capital projects. I do agree though, that taxes should be placed on any new source of fuel cars may get in the future (whether that be electric or something else)

Getting back to Illinois, other states surrounding it can build new highways without toll booths. Why can't Illinois? The problem is state government mismanagement of IDOT and lack of innovation within that department. If Illinois actually got competent government, we could have built the EOWA as a free road (like it should have been).

I do not mind the existing toll road system staying in place, but it should not be expanded any further (with the exception of the IL-53 extension). Expanding it to include the EOWA is just stupid, especially when the original road was paid for with tax dollars. Now the tollway will have a monopoly on all the commuter routes into Chicago and O'Hare. There should be a free (limited access highway) alternative. Also, the tollway is wasting its money building the EOWA since it won't even connect with western access to O'Hare. They would have been better off using the resources they are using on the EOWA to rebuild the I-90/I-290/IL-53 interchange and build the IL-53 extension.

The fact is that the majority of new highways created today are being built by tolls. Just look at Texas, North Carolina, or heck even Kentucky. States that do not currently have tolls (Minnesota, Michigan, or Kentucky) are already looking into creating tolled roads. States that don't have toll roads currently (i.e. Wisconsin) also have non-existent public transportation as well which places a greater need on highways.

IDOT is not solely to blame when it comes to incompetent highways. There's also the USDOT which shares equal blame when it comes to incompetence. USDOT approved the takeover of EOE from IDOT to ITHSA If you think IDOT's alone when it comes to incompetence, you really need to take a drive to the east coast, particularly to NY/NJ. The problem you have here in Chicagoland is that you have public transportation and highways fighting for the same slice of the pie and both want in on the action.

The other part of the equation is the anti-car movement that's growing these days and moving to the city using public trans and people are also driving less today than 10 years ago. People these days are OK with the gas tax being funneled towards public transportation, bike lanes, etc. In my opinion, if these bicyclists want in on the action, then they should pay some sort of bike tax. Raise the gas tax all you want, by if that money is being funneled towards bike lanes or public transit, then what's the point?  If the money's going to go towards extending the red line towards 130th street, how's that going to create the sorely needed 290/53/90 interchange? At the end of the day, there isn't enough money being put in either public trans or highways in Chicagoland. Part of the blame is because of IDOT, the other part of the blame is within USDOT, neither of which have raised the gas tax in 2 decades.

Bottom line is, in the next 5,10,15, 20 years, a good chunk of the cars will be electric, hybrid, or extended range EV. The question is what's more equitable towards paying for road projects? Increasing the gas tax? Taxing electricity? VMT tax? higher registration fees? or tolls?

Currently, raising the gas tax for the near future is more sensible, but that's not going to cut it looking forward.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 07:48:20 PM by johndoe780 »
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I-39

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #236 on: November 05, 2015, 08:12:31 PM »

Quote

Then by your logic, we need to toll ALL roads, not just Interstates/limited-access highways. Why bother having DOT's if the Tollway is to run everything? Why should I have to pay for a road originally and then have it tolled so I have to pay again to use it (basically what the EOWA has become).

The reason the gas tax brings in smaller and smaller revenue is that is has not be raised in most states (and federally) in over 20 years. If it was actually raised periodically, it would bring in revenue to maintain roads and for capital projects. I do agree though, that taxes should be placed on any new source of fuel cars may get in the future (whether that be electric or something else)

Getting back to Illinois, other states surrounding it can build new highways without toll booths. Why can't Illinois? The problem is state government mismanagement of IDOT and lack of innovation within that department. If Illinois actually got competent government, we could have built the EOWA as a free road (like it should have been).

I do not mind the existing toll road system staying in place, but it should not be expanded any further (with the exception of the IL-53 extension). Expanding it to include the EOWA is just stupid, especially when the original road was paid for with tax dollars. Now the tollway will have a monopoly on all the commuter routes into Chicago and O'Hare. There should be a free (limited access highway) alternative. Also, the tollway is wasting its money building the EOWA since it won't even connect with western access to O'Hare. They would have been better off using the resources they are using on the EOWA to rebuild the I-90/I-290/IL-53 interchange and build the IL-53 extension.

Quote
The fact is that the majority of new highways created today are being built by tolls. Just look at Texas, North Carolina, or heck even Kentucky. States that do not currently have tolls (Minnesota, Michigan, or Kentucky) are already looking into creating tolled roads. States that don't have toll roads currently (i.e. Wisconsin) also have non-existent public transportation as well which places a greater need on highways.

Sure, there are studies out, but very few have gained traction. And most of those are not tolling Interstates, it's other side roads.

Kentucky had toll roads, but unlike Illinois, they followed their own law and removed the tolls from the parkways once the bonds were paid off. They MIGHT reinstate them on the parkways where I-69 will run along, to help upgrade them to Interstate-standards, but they would be removed once the bonds are paid off.

The fact is most states do not rely on tolls to build new limited access highways. None of neighbouring states to Illinois do, and frankly, it makes us a laughing stock. We are the biggest state in the Midwest, we should have the most revenue, and yet, we can barely scrape together enough funds to maintain our highways? Pathetic.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if state DOT's were properly funded and managed.

Quote
IDOT is not solely to blame when it comes to incompetent highways. There's also the USDOT which shares equal blame when it comes to incompetence. USDOT approved the takeover of EOE from IDOT to ITHSA If you think IDOT's alone when it comes to incompetence, you really need to take a drive to the east coast, particularly to NY/NJ. The problem you have here in Chicagoland is that you have public transportation and highways fighting for the same slice of the pie and both want in on the action.

The other part of the equation is the anti-car movement that's growing these days. People these days are OK with the gas tax being funneled towards public transportation, bike lanes, etc. In my opinion, if these bicyclists want in on the action, then they should pay some sort of bike tax. Raise the gas tax all you want, by if that money is being funneled towards bike lanes or public transit, then what's the point?  If the money's going to go towards extending the red line towards 130th street, how's that going to create the sorely needed 290/53/90 interchange? At the end of the day, there isn't enough money being put in either public trans or highways in Chicagoland. Part of the blame is because of IDOT, the other part of the blame is within USDOT, neither of which have raised the gas tax in 2 decades.

Again, this goes back to the mismanagement of IDOT by the state government. Motor fuel taxes should ONLY go for roads, not public transportation. But this is yet another example of politicians raiding specific tax funds for purposes other than what is was originally collected for. If motor fuel taxes only went to roads and were raised to keep up with inflation, then we wouldn't be having this problem. I agree 10000000% transit should pay for it's own projects. 

The fact that the EOWA was approved to be converted to a toll road by USDOT doesn't change the fact it should have been built as a free road. The project was listed as a project of national or regional significance by USDOT and they knew IDOT wouldn't be coming up with the $3.4 billion anytime soon. But if things were managed better, IDOT would have been able to pay for it.

And as I said, ISTHA is wasting it's money with the EOWA. Until Chicago and O'Hare figures out what to do about western access, the EOWA isn't needed. The tollway should have built IL-53 instead.

Also, who's to say ISTHA won't be raided in the future for $$$$? There's nothing stopping Springfield from doing so if they wanted to.

Quote
Bottom line is, in the next 5,10,15, 20 years, a good chunk of the cars will be electric, hybrid, or extended range EV. The question is what's more equitable towards paying for road projects? Increasing the gas tax? Taxing electricity? VMT tax? higher registration fees? or tolls?

Currently, raising the gas tax for the near future is more sensible, but that's not going to cut it looking forward.

Well, for the time being, most cars still run on gas, and they will until some sort of reliable alternative fuel is created that enables cars to go as long as they can as gas cars between refueling/recharging.

Honestly, money for roads may come from some sort of combination of all of the things you mentioned. Something is going to have to be done soon.

Bottom line is this, IDOT needs reform, the state needs to get it's fiscal house in order, the gas tax needs to be raised and appropriated towards roads only. We shouldn't have all toll roads in Chicagoland.
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kkt

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #237 on: November 06, 2015, 12:46:36 PM »

Because so much of the federal gas tax goes back to roads?

I read on somewhere, only 50-60% of the federal gas tax even ends up going back to the roads. How about we fix that first before we start come up with extremely convoluted taxing schemes?

"Somewhere", really?  I spent seconds and seconds googling and found this:

For the fiscal year Oct. 2014-Sept. 2015, the Federal highway trust fund changes:

Opening Balance    $15 B
Highway Outlays    $43 B
Mass Transit Outlays    $9 B
Receipts from Dedicated Fund    $40 B
Receipts from General Fund    $8 B
Closing Balance    $12 B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund#Fund_balance

Quote
To make matters even more complex, most millenials just move to X,Y, or Z large city and just use public transportation and ditch their car.

Then they are only using the roads indirectly and therefore don't pay directly for their construction and upkeep.  I don't see the problem there.

Quote
Tolls just seem more straightforward since it doesn't require any more complexities (or government looking to see how much I'm driving or where I'm driving.)

The problem is it's expensive to collect the tolls.  Automatic tolling equipment takes a large cut of the money they take in.  Gas tax has almost no overhead to collect.  Also, there's no nationwide standard for automatic toll collection, so states or localities are discriminating against visitors by charging them higher tolls.  Hybrids are usually lightweight and so put less wear on the roads and use gas more efficiently so I'm fine with them paying lower taxes.

Gas tax isn't perfect, but I think it's the best option in general.
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Revive 755

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #238 on: November 15, 2015, 11:08:20 PM »

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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #239 on: November 16, 2015, 07:56:38 PM »

Cook County Record:  Canadian Pacific asks court to block Tollway from taking land at Bensenville rail yard for Elgin O'Hare project

This would affect the Western Bypass (I-490) near the connection with I-294.

Sounds like CP is just whining that semi-trucks can and will move faster through Chicago than via rail. Instead of fighting ITHSA, CP should fix their own shit.

Poor excuse as IDOT can always eminent domain it and transfer the land for free to ITHSA.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #240 on: November 16, 2015, 10:18:39 PM »

Poor excuse as IDOT can always eminent domain it and transfer the land for free to ITHSA.

This case may not be as cut and dried as you think.  ISTHA has the same condemnation powers as IDOT, IIRC.  But railroads also have condemnation powers, and are dealt with in a special way by state and federal law because of their role in intrastate and interstate commerce.  It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #241 on: November 17, 2015, 11:00:48 AM »

Poor excuse as IDOT can always eminent domain it and transfer the land for free to ITHSA.

This case may not be as cut and dried as you think.  ISTHA has the same condemnation powers as IDOT, IIRC.  But railroads also have condemnation powers, and are dealt with in a special way by state and federal law because of their role in intrastate and interstate commerce.  It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

I agree, it's not. But it's common knowledge that Chicago rail is the busiest and takes 21-24 hours just to go through via rail. This is mainly due to lack of investment in the area.

CP just doesn't want to compete with trucks at the end of the day, which can move through Chicago faster.
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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #242 on: December 11, 2015, 06:55:31 PM »

Could this derail the EOWA project south of IL 390 if Candian Pacific won in court (they probably will if freight railroads are considered exempt from state eminant domain), or would the tollway just buy land to the west of the railroad and not have an interchange with Irving Park (increasing the project costs)?

Would the Metra Milwaukee District West line be effected if the eminant domain was successful?  Maybe put the Metra in the median like the El?  I don't think the west bypass south of IL 390 is worth axing Metra service on the MDW line, especially when O'hare doesn't even have a west terminal yet.
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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #243 on: December 12, 2015, 03:25:23 PM »

This all comes down to the same thing. They have the money to invest in improvements to the network but refuse to spend any of that money. Honestly you would think a more modern, smart and faster rail system would be a huge plus to not only Chicago but the whole Tri-State area. Not only for the passenger trains but freight trains as well. But they look at it as something that would take a lot of investment up front that won't pay off for 10 years even though by not doing it you fall further behind other services that are improving in the area. So instead they look for ways to derail other projects so that they don't have to make these improvements.
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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #244 on: December 31, 2015, 08:16:51 PM »

On a more positive note, the third-laning of IL-390 is complete between Meacham/Medina Rd. and Irving Park. Speed "limit" has also been restored to 55.
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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #245 on: January 01, 2016, 11:40:46 AM »

This all comes down to the same thing. They have the money to invest in improvements to the network but refuse to spend any of that money. Honestly you would think a more modern, smart and faster rail system would be a huge plus to not only Chicago but the whole Tri-State area. Not only for the passenger trains but freight trains as well. But they look at it as something that would take a lot of investment up front that won't pay off for 10 years even though by not doing it you fall further behind other services that are improving in the area. So instead they look for ways to derail other projects so that they don't have to make these improvements.

http://trn.trains.com/issues/2015/july-2015

Most of the issue is devoted to this very subject.
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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #246 on: January 06, 2016, 10:19:33 PM »

On a more positive note, the third-laning of IL-390 is complete between Meacham/Medina Rd. and Irving Park. Speed "limit" has also been restored to 55.

It's just too bad they are going to drop a lane east of I-290.
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johndoe780

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #247 on: January 07, 2016, 02:57:12 AM »

This all comes down to the same thing. They have the money to invest in improvements to the network but refuse to spend any of that money. Honestly you would think a more modern, smart and faster rail system would be a huge plus to not only Chicago but the whole Tri-State area. Not only for the passenger trains but freight trains as well. But they look at it as something that would take a lot of investment up front that won't pay off for 10 years even though by not doing it you fall further behind other services that are improving in the area. So instead they look for ways to derail other projects so that they don't have to make these improvements.

http://trn.trains.com/issues/2015/july-2015

Most of the issue is devoted to this very subject.

Seems to me that they (rail companies) want uncle Sam to foot the bill when it comes to rail infrastructure upgrades, but kick and howl when uncle Sam creates new highways that semi trucks can use that would otherwise be on rail.

Competition is a great thing. These rail companies sure do know how to make an ass out of themselves. It's too bad that keystone was vetoed.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 02:59:58 AM by johndoe780 »
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mgk920

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #248 on: January 07, 2016, 11:09:43 AM »

This all comes down to the same thing. They have the money to invest in improvements to the network but refuse to spend any of that money. Honestly you would think a more modern, smart and faster rail system would be a huge plus to not only Chicago but the whole Tri-State area. Not only for the passenger trains but freight trains as well. But they look at it as something that would take a lot of investment up front that won't pay off for 10 years even though by not doing it you fall further behind other services that are improving in the area. So instead they look for ways to derail other projects so that they don't have to make these improvements.

http://trn.trains.com/issues/2015/july-2015

Most of the issue is devoted to this very subject.

Seems to me that they (rail companies) want uncle Sam to foot the bill when it comes to rail infrastructure upgrades, but kick and howl when uncle Sam creates new highways that semi trucks can use that would otherwise be on rail.

Competition is a great thing. These rail companies sure do know how to make an ass out of themselves. It's too bad that keystone was vetoed.

A bit off topic, but IMHO, I am firmly in the camp that says that if any tax money is spent on upgrading railroad infrastructure that the line must operate on a full, non-discriminatory 'open access' basis (like with how roads, civil aviation and so forth now operate), where anyone can directly use it and go wherever he or she wants to as long as 1 - the user's equipment meets required minimum technical standards, 2 - the user's operating crew is properly qualified and licensed and 3 - the user is willing and able to pay any necessary fees and tolls.

I want rails to enjoy the same operating environment that the trucking companies, bus companies, ship companies, airlines and so forth now enjoy.

Mike
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:13:43 AM by mgk920 »
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I-39

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Re: Elgin-O'Hare Tollway
« Reply #249 on: January 15, 2016, 02:07:11 PM »

More drama with the EOWA. Looks like Politics are now being dragged into it.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160113/BLOGS02/160119935/springfield-war-spreads-to-key-ohare-project
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