Harbor Freeway incorrectly signed in downtown LA (I-110 vs CA 110)

[TheStranger]

I'm rather surprised that Caltrans hasn't turned over the old Cypress Viaduct alignment to the city of Oakland.  October 17, 2014 will mark the 25th anniversary of the Loma Prieta Earthquake.

CAHighways notes it occurred back in 2000:

In 2000, the portion of the former right-of-way of Route 880 that is located between 8th Street and 32nd Street within the City of Oakland was relinquished to the City of Oakland, providing that certain improvements were made, such as including bicycle paths and the associated roadway improvements and landscaping (including a bicycle path that closes the gap in the San Francisco Bay Trail Plan)

Could be another case, like 710 south of Route 1, where a condition for either adoption or relinquishment has been achieved, but the route definition has yet to be updated.

[TheStranger]

An interesting set of photos I took this weekend: while for years I've known that the mainline of southbound 110 between US 101 at the Four-Level and I-10 has been signed as Interstate 110, the local-access lanes have always been a bit more mixed between I-110 and state Route 110 signage (compare http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063306855/ to http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063311165/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064202266/ ).

But approaching Staples Center and I-10, things really get funky on the local-access section:

Sign #1: I-110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064206266/
Sign #2: Route 110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064207826/
Sign #3: Route 110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063621413/ (note that the Adams Boulevard exit listed here occurs south of I-10)
Signs #4 and #5: I-110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064211016/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064212256/

At the Four-Level, all signage from 101 identifies the Harbor Freeway southbound entirely as I-110 Freeway and the Arroyo Seco Parkway (Pasadena Freeway) as Route 110 Parkway, i.e. http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064185326/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063601893/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063607283/

This actually does make a difference, as a counter to this post much earlier in the thread:

Does it really matter to most drivers, after all, it is just "the 110" CA or Interstate not really important.

Seems to me the idea of the de facto signage shift from state route to Interstate at 101 is to mark that I-110/Harbor Freeway is accessible to trucks, but NOT Route 110/Arroyo Seco Parkway.  Of course, this would work much better if the northbound Harbor Freeway was more consistently signed as part of the interstate, and if the local lanes on the southbound segment had matching Interstate-only signage similar to the southbound through lanes.

---

There is also one new Interstate 110 sign pointing to the northbound Harbor Freeway in downtown, which I didn't catch back in November:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12027515353/

[emory]

Here's another one. Hard to see, but the best view I can get from GSV. Out in Barstow on I-15 Business heading towards I-15, there's a sign directing motorists to CA 15.

https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=394+L+St&data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-117.056418!3d34.888337!2m2!1f213.4!2f86.25!4f75!2m9!1e1!2m4!1si-XWeEgNBhwE1tp2E6hMNQ!2e0!9m1!6sL+Street!5m2!1si-XWeEgNBhwE1tp2E6hMNQ!2e0!4m15!2m14!1m13!1s0x80c47c0abb2ca12b%3A0x2cca0f93401a24c5!3m8!1m3!1d3!2d-117.056418!3d34.888337!3m2!1i1600!2i1075!4f75!4m2!3d34.8897524!4d-117.0568139&fid=5

[TheStranger]

Here's another one. Hard to see, but the best view I can get from GSV. Out in Barstow on I-15 Business heading towards I-15, there's a sign directing motorists to CA 15.

https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=394+L+St&data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-117.056418!3d34.888337!2m2!1f213.4!2f86.25!4f75!2m9!1e1!2m4!1si-XWeEgNBhwE1tp2E6hMNQ!2e0!9m1!6sL+Street!5m2!1si-XWeEgNBhwE1tp2E6hMNQ!2e0!4m15!2m14!1m13!1s0x80c47c0abb2ca12b%3A0x2cca0f93401a24c5!3m8!1m3!1d3!2d-117.056418!3d34.888337!3m2!1i1600!2i1075!4f75!4m2!3d34.8897524!4d-117.0568139&fid=5

Perfect corollary to this, at 32nd Street and Norman Scott Road in San Diego along the south terminus of what is currently Route 15 but is slated to become I-15:

https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-117.125328!3d32.687348!2m2!1f353.52!2f100.22!4f75!2m9!1e1!2m4!1svrQqC09QDyAcQTQDuFMYHw!2e0!9m1!6sSouth+32nd+Street!5m2!1svrQqC09QDyAcQTQDuFMYHw!2e0&fid=5

Two I-15 shields!  Seems to have been up for quite some time - I remember seeing the larger one as far back as 1998 when I traveled down the San Diego Trolley line to San Ysidro - even though 15 was only completed as a full freeway between I-8 and I-5 a few years ago.

[mrsman]

An interesting set of photos I took this weekend: while for years I've known that the mainline of southbound 110 between US 101 at the Four-Level and I-10 has been signed as Interstate 110, the local-access lanes have always been a bit more mixed between I-110 and state Route 110 signage (compare http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063306855/ to http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063311165/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064202266/ ).

But approaching Staples Center and I-10, things really get funky on the local-access section:

Sign #1: I-110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064206266/
Sign #2: Route 110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064207826/
Sign #3: Route 110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063621413/ (note that the Adams Boulevard exit listed here occurs south of I-10)
Signs #4 and #5: I-110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064211016/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064212256/

At the Four-Level, all signage from 101 identifies the Harbor Freeway southbound entirely as I-110 Freeway and the Arroyo Seco Parkway (Pasadena Freeway) as Route 110 Parkway, i.e. http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064185326/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063601893/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063607283/

This actually does make a difference, as a counter to this post much earlier in the thread:

Does it really matter to most drivers, after all, it is just "the 110" CA or Interstate not really important.

Seems to me the idea of the de facto signage shift from state route to Interstate at 101 is to mark that I-110/Harbor Freeway is accessible to trucks, but NOT Route 110/Arroyo Seco Parkway.  Of course, this would work much better if the northbound Harbor Freeway was more consistently signed as part of the interstate, and if the local lanes on the southbound segment had matching Interstate-only signage similar to the southbound through lanes.

---

There is also one new Interstate 110 sign pointing to the northbound Harbor Freeway in downtown, which I didn't catch back in November:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12027515353/

You are right.  There is a need for consistent signing along this stretch.  Once Caltrans decided to sign I-110 from US 101 south, they needed to do that consistently.

One other issue with some of the signs that you took pictures.  Where are the control cities?

[TheStranger]

You are right.  There is a need for consistent signing along this stretch.  Once Caltrans decided to sign I-110 from US 101 south, they needed to do that consistently.

And it seems the original pullthrough southbound-as-Interstate 110 signage is 2-3 decades old - certainly enough time to be cohesive for that northern stretch of the Harbor Freeway.

One other issue with some of the signs that you took pictures.  Where are the control cities?

Good question.  There's been a transition in recent years as far as the southbound 101 segment of the Santa Ana Freeway is concerned (as acknowledged by sdmichael in another thread) - from the "I-10 San Bernardino/I-5 Santa Ana" signage with no 101 acknolwedgement, to the much more accurate "101 to 10 East/5 South/60 East" signs that exist now.  As for 110?  The older pullthroughs southbound have the San Pedro appellations; some other signs on that stretch just mention the freeway name (Harbor Freeway).

[emory]

You are right.  There is a need for consistent signing along this stretch.  Once Caltrans decided to sign I-110 from US 101 south, they needed to do that consistently.

That would be nice, but what's good about CalTrans is how they define every route as "Route X" regardless of its shield type. The 210 freeway is the same freeway from CA 210 in San Bernardino to I-210 in Pasadena, so no one's going to be confused. Even the example I cited in Barstow, my immediate assumption was CA 15 = I-15. There's even signs in the northern cities of the San Bernardino valley directing motorists onto "Route 5."

[TheStranger]

That would be nice, but what's good about CalTrans is how they define every route as "Route X" regardless of its shield type. The 210 freeway is the same freeway from CA 210 in San Bernardino to I-210 in Pasadena, so no one's going to be confused. Even the example I cited in Barstow, my immediate assumption was CA 15 = I-15.

In the specific case of 110, I almost feel like the distinction is a little more important - in trying to associate I-110 with "Harbor Freeway" and consequently state route 110 as a no-trucks-allowed Parkway.

Here's one example of a sign that was replaced recently with similar legend to the existing older installation, yet now shows the Interstate/state route separation -

http://www.gbcnet.com/ushighways/us_pix/hollywood_sign.jpg - 1960s as US 6 Harbor Freeway/US 66 Pasadena Freeway

http://www.gbcnet.com/ushighways/us_pix/hollywood_sign_1997.jpg 1997 as Route 110 for both Harbor Freeway & Pasadena Freeway

http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064185326/ approximately 2008-present as I-110 Fwy/Route 110 Pkwy

[TheStranger]

Never thought that my burgeoning interest in Korean pop music would relate to roadgeeking, but a DETOUR NORTH I-110 sign in downtown Los Angeles at 8th and Broadway is prominently featured at times in the video for 2NE1's "Happy" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=didptMJxjpE

(2:27, 2:37, 3:26)

Google Street View shows the sign, located right in front of the former Rialto Theater, here:

http://goo.gl/maps/aEQO8

[AndyMax25]

An interesting set of photos I took this weekend: while for years I've known that the mainline of southbound 110 between US 101 at the Four-Level and I-10 has been signed as Interstate 110, the local-access lanes have always been a bit more mixed between I-110 and state Route 110 signage (compare http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063306855/ to http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063311165/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064202266/ ).

But approaching Staples Center and I-10, things really get funky on the local-access section:

Sign #1: I-110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064206266/
Sign #2: Route 110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064207826/
Sign #3: Route 110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063621413/ (note that the Adams Boulevard exit listed here occurs south of I-10)
Signs #4 and #5: I-110 http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064211016/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064212256/

At the Four-Level, all signage from 101 identifies the Harbor Freeway southbound entirely as I-110 Freeway and the Arroyo Seco Parkway (Pasadena Freeway) as Route 110 Parkway, i.e. http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12064185326/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063601893/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/12063607283/

Here are some more pictures of the same area mentioned by TheStranger

Regarding the lack of control cities.  All 4 images show a clear gap where the control city names should go (the original sings had them of course); Santa Monica for I-10 West and San Bernardino for I-10 East.  District 7 made a decision to remove control cities from the overhead guide signs but they did not bother to redesign these particular signs, they just put up the new ones without them.  However, even this policy decision was not carried out consistently as you can see San Pedro is shown on the first image.  Thankfully, to my understanding, they have since changed their mind on this policy.  I will try to contact them to see if they are willing to put up the city names as overlays.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think this thread has noted that traditionally, the name change (Harbor Freeway/Arroyo Seco Parkway) occurs at the Four Level Interchange (101/110) while the route designation (CA 110/I-110) occurs at the Santa Monica Freeway (I-10) interchange.  Inconsistent old and new signage has made it difficult to determine if this is the case.

[TheStranger]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think this thread has noted that traditionally, the name change (Harbor Freeway/Arroyo Seco Parkway) occurs at the Four Level Interchange (101/110) while the route designation (CA 110/I-110) occurs at the Santa Monica Freeway (I-10) interchange.  Inconsistent old and new signage has made it difficult to determine if this is the case.

On a historic basis, both the name and designation changes have occurred at the Four-Level (with US 66 transitioning from the Hollywood Freeway to the Arroyo Seco Parkway there, and US 99 switching over from the Arroyo Seco Parkway to the Santa Ana Freeway briefly) with Route 11 and US 6 continuing on from either side of the stack.  (Was the truck restriction on the parkway in existence when the Four-Level opened?)

Based on the photos I've posted (and that you and others have), I think the signage goes something like this:

Southbound: I-110 signs begin at the Four-Level interchange, Route 110 signs continue sporadically until the Santa Monica Freeway
Northbound: The last I-110 trailblazer northbound is right before the 9th street exit; the first Route 110 pullthroughs occur past Adams: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.029338,-118.274281,3a,22.9y,358.42h,92.71t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sMLtcdBmrCtpMnCbDQ8XQ3w!2e0!6m1!1e1

Here's a good example of where BOTH designations are used on an onramp sign on a section that is clearly I-110, at 37th and Hope:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.01706,-118.28006,3a,22.2y,70.08h,82.45t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOe-yEOVGC7hUu1gNwclChQ!2e0!6m1!1e1

[Quillz]

I think Caltrans incorrectly signed the route just to watch the heads of sign geeks explode! Does it really matter to most drivers, after all, it is just "the 110" CA or Interstate not really important.

I remember reading once that one of the reasons for Interstate 238 was the "brand name recognition" it brings. A lot of motorists recognize the interstate shield and thus understand that it's an "important highway" that will get them to where they want to go. Perhaps, then, that logic can be applied to the frequent misapplication of I-110 shields in places where it's really supposed to be CA-110 shields. The idea that motorists feel more comfortable on an interstate than a state highway. Who knows.

[TheStranger]

Perhaps, then, that logic can be applied to the frequent misapplication of I-110 shields in places where it's really supposed to be CA-110 shields. The idea that motorists feel more comfortable on an interstate than a state highway. Who knows.

I think more simply that the Interstate shield being used on all the Harbor Freeway serves an important purpose: reemphasizing that trucks are indeed allowed on that portion of 110 (as opposed to the state route).  And while there is that no-trucks portion of the MacArthur Freeway/580, for the most part the correlation is pretty standard.

[JustDrive]

Interesting to note that there's a CA 110 sign at the gore point at the I-10 west ramp, considering all the other previous overhead signs have an interstate shield on them.

[TheStranger]

Interesting to note that there's a CA 110 sign at the gore point at the I-10 west ramp, considering all the other previous overhead signs have an interstate shield on them.

Southbound past the Four-Level, I've noticed that the local lanes generally have Route 110 shields on the overhead signage, while the through lanes have signs for the Interstate designation.  That might explain why things get a little bit muddied at I-10 .

[mrsman]

Perhaps, then, that logic can be applied to the frequent misapplication of I-110 shields in places where it's really supposed to be CA-110 shields. The idea that motorists feel more comfortable on an interstate than a state highway. Who knows.

I think more simply that the Interstate shield being used on all the Harbor Freeway serves an important purpose: reemphasizing that trucks are indeed allowed on that portion of 110 (as opposed to the state route).  And while there is that no-trucks portion of the MacArthur Freeway/580, for the most part the correlation is pretty standard.

I agree.  Technically,I-110/CA-110 break is at the 10 freeway.  But it would be much easier for everyone involved if the freeway were signed consistenly as I-110 every point south of the 101, because the entire Harbor Freeway would be designation separate from the Arroyo Seco (where there is a truck restriction).

The trick is getting all the signs changed along the freeways (including I-10 and US 101) and on the surface streets downtown.

Thank god CA is very good about not duplicating highway numbers.   Imagine if there were another 110 along a different corridor in a way that some other states do (example: I-68 and MD-68 being two completely separate highways).

[TheStranger]

I agree.  Technically,I-110/CA-110 break is at the 10 freeway.  But it would be much easier for everyone involved if the freeway were signed consistenly as I-110 every point south of the 101, because the entire Harbor Freeway would be designation separate from the Arroyo Seco (where there is a truck restriction).

The trick is getting all the signs changed along the freeways (including I-10 and US 101) and on the surface streets downtown.

Summed up my feelings perfectly!  Really, what would need to be changed are some overheads on downtown streets (approaching Figueroa) and the pull-throughs northbound for maybe one or two more miles (as the state route shield should start appearing northbound the closer you get to the Four-Level).

And given there's a newer State Route 110 sign (installed by the Port of Los Angeles) near an onramp in San Pedro, the confusion isn't limited to downtown.

[Bickendan]

Why would there be a CA 110 sign on any onramp of the Harbor south of I-10? I'm perfectly fine with CA 110 bookending I-110, but the southern CA 110 doesn't apply to a freeway facility, just the at grade south of it.

[TheStranger]

Why would there be a CA 110 sign on any onramp of the Harbor south of I-10? I'm perfectly fine with CA 110 bookending I-110, but the southern CA 110 doesn't apply to a freeway facility, just the at grade south of it.

That's EXACTLY what I wonder too.  Might be a mixup from when the state route continued down Gaffey Street but the sign is newer than that!

(And of course, a few posts up is this state Route 110 sign near Exposition:  https://www.google.com/maps/@34.01706,-118.28006,3a,22.2y,70.08h,82.45t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOe-yEOVGC7hUu1gNwclChQ!2e0!6m1!1e1 )

[mrsman]

I agree.  Technically,I-110/CA-110 break is at the 10 freeway.  But it would be much easier for everyone involved if the freeway were signed consistenly as I-110 every point south of the 101, because the entire Harbor Freeway would be designation separate from the Arroyo Seco (where there is a truck restriction).

The trick is getting all the signs changed along the freeways (including I-10 and US 101) and on the surface streets downtown.

Summed up my feelings perfectly!  Really, what would need to be changed are some overheads on downtown streets (approaching Figueroa) and the pull-throughs northbound for maybe one or two more miles (as the state route shield should start appearing northbound the closer you get to the Four-Level).

And given there's a newer State Route 110 sign (installed by the Port of Los Angeles) near an onramp in San Pedro, the confusion isn't limited to downtown.

To be very specific, I would say that on southbound 110, all pull-through signs should be CA-110 until you reach the exit for the 101 at the Four Level Interchange.  Then, all pull-throughs should be I-110.  All signage from surface street on-ramps north of US 101 should be CA-110 and south of US 101 should be I-110.  The exits from US 101 to the southbound 110 should be I-110 exclusively.

For northbound 110, all pull-through signage should be I-110 until you reach the Downtown exits (9th Street exit).  Then, the signage should read CA-110.  All signage from surface street on-ramps north of and including 8th Street should be CA-110 and south of that point, including 11th Street should be I-110.   Basically, the approach is that if you are on the freeway south of the Downtown exits, you are definitely on the Harbor Freeway, but if you enter it in downtown, you are technically on the Harbor Freeway,but for all intents and purposes there are no Harbor Freeway exits that you come across, just transition ramps to the Pasadena, Hollywood, or Santa Ana Freeways.

[TheStranger]

To be very specific, I would say that on southbound 110, all pull-through signs should be CA-110 until you reach the exit for the 101 at the Four Level Interchange.  Then, all pull-throughs should be I-110.  All signage from surface street on-ramps north of US 101 should be CA-110 and south of US 101 should be I-110.  The exits from US 101 to the southbound 110 should be I-110 exclusively.

Overall I think the pullthrough suggestions you have here are in place (but not yet the onramp signage) -

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arroyo+Seco+Pkwy,+Los+Angeles,+CA/@34.064894,-118.24532,3a,75y,242.89h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s4N_tVOdXTWhGXZkuPjtXKA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x80c2c4236edb172d:0xd57acf743cab8ddd!6m1!1e1 Route 110 southbound signage along the Arroyo Seco (Pasadena) segment right before the Four-Level

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.063302,-118.248154,3a,75y,255.38h,77.47t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1se0j-MrFgXMvpGjyHTPp2HQ!2e0!6m1!1e1 looks to be the final Route 110 trailblazer before crossing under US 101

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.060742,-118.251031,3a,75y,237.16h,94.23t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spv6IGR4sqZKoegS8_gDyLg!2e0!6m1!1e1 the very first I-110 pullthrough, just south of the Four-Level

For northbound 110, all pull-through signage should be I-110 until you reach the Downtown exits (9th Street exit).  Then, the signage should read CA-110.  All signage from surface street on-ramps north of and including 8th Street should be CA-110 and south of that point, including 11th Street should be I-110.   Basically, the approach is that if you are on the freeway south of the Downtown exits, you are definitely on the Harbor Freeway, but if you enter it in downtown, you are technically on the Harbor Freeway,but for all intents and purposes there are no Harbor Freeway exits that you come across, just transition ramps to the Pasadena, Hollywood, or Santa Ana Freeways.

There's one trailblazer for I-110 northbound right before the 9th Street exit, which I think is indeed the furthest north it is currently signed in that direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.04391,-118.271994,3a,18.8y,95.13h,84.07t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1svb5RKvkpvrRh0gH62xkffg!2e0!6m1!1e1

Here's a "To I-110 Freeway" sign on Pico near the convention center (which is north of I-10) -
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.042735,-118.272676,3a,23.1y,150.94h,91.23t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sj_x3YLyRcKhgp7ra0FBFGw!2e0!6m1!1e1

[mrsman]

Yes, a lot of what I suggested is in place.  But we need to be sure that all signage is consistent:  Pullthrough signs, trailblazers on the freeway, little white signs at bridges and underpasses, freeway entrance signs, BGS style signs from surface streets, signs put in place by LADOT, etc.

In short, we don't want to see this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.04584,-118.271077,3a,75y,102.49h,67.71t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sMgVXcuxfdRGPNrsEU9GmMA!2e0

But this is OK:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.046279,-118.270774,3a,75y,212.78h,76.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sn5jqFmPX-qm9mK2L3ck1gA!2e0


Another way to think of it is in relation to control cities.  If you sign 110 southbound with a control of Downtown LA or LA, CA-110.  But if you sign it with a control of San Pedro, I-110.  If you sign 110 northbound with a control of Downtown LA or LA I-110, but if you sign it with Pasadena CA-110. 

If you are north of the 101, CA-110.   If you are south of the 10, I-110.  But if you are between both freeways, I-110 south and CA-110 north.

[Occidental Tourist]

Not to steer this thread too far off topic, but does anyone know why they sign Gaffey Street at the southern end of the 110 with an Interstate shield?

[TheStranger]

Not to steer this thread too far off topic, but does anyone know why they sign Gaffey Street at the southern end of the 110 with an Interstate shield?

It may simply be that Gaffey Street is the control destination of I-110 (now that state route 110 no longer exists south of the end of the freeway).

[Bickendan]

At this point then, CA 110_South (Gaffey St) no longer exists, leaving just CA 110_North (Arroyo Seco Parkway)?