ODOT Plots The Demise Of Oregon-Style Speed Signs?

[Tarkus]

As many of us Oregon roadgeeks know, since about 2002, when the requirement to omit the word "limit" was removed from the Oregon MUTCD supplement (supposedly due to FHWA pressure), standard MUTCD "speed limit" signs--which I prefer to mockingly call "Commie speed limit signs"--started popping up along the interstates and in a few isolated cities (Beaverton, Salem, and Roseburg). 

However, in the past year, and especially in recent months, I've been noticing the Commie signs invading jurisdictions that have remained bastions of Oregon-style signs, at a rapidly increasing rate.  When the speed zone orders went through on NE Airport Rd and NW 194th Ave in Hillsboro in the past 3 months--both raising the limit--I was rather alarmed to see those nice new higher numbers scrunched up on Commie signs.  I also saw a couple pop up on a few Washington County-maintained arterials.  And as was discussed on the recent thread about the US-26 signing project in Portland [link], they've shown up there, and in other places throughout Portland.  I also just went on an 1100-mile trip through the hinterlands of Oregon and the tip of Nevada, and the alarm continued.  Speed Limit signs were all over the place on OR-242, throughout Bend (on both state and city roadways), in Lakeview and most locales along US-97 south of Bend.

I took a gander at the most recent Oregon MUTCD supplement, the 2009 edition, and it appears the wording on Section 2B.13 (page 8) has changed [link].  The official copy on the ODOT site is a freaking mess (typical of certain patterns of unprofessionalism in ODOT's behavior), but here's the pertinent bit:

Standard:
The word LIMIT shall be omitted on all Speed Limit (R2-1) signs on highways outside of City limits that are not interstate highways or school zones.

I also found this in Chapter 3 of the latest version of the ODOT Sign Policy guidelines [link] (I've bolded the pertinent part):

2B.13 Speed Limit Sign (R2-1)
The SPEED XX (OR2-1) sign is to be used for posting of all non-interstate speed zones that do not fall within city limits or designated school zones.

In keeping with legislative changes which establish speeds on interstate highways as speed limits (see ORS 810.180), all speed signs installed on Oregon interstates shall be SPEED LIMIT XX (R2-1) signs. This applies only to interstates (I-5, I-82, I-84, I-105, I-205 and I-405) and not to other state highways.

Per ORS 811.111, all speed signs installed at school zones shall be SPEED LIMIT 20 (R2-1) signs.

All speed zones that fall within city limits shall be posted with SPEED LIMIT XX (R2-1) signs.

From what I can tell, this seems to indicate that ODOT wants to phase out all Oregon-style speed signs, statewide, with the exception of the "Speed 55" signs that are often seen at the ends of speed zones leaving populated areas on non-interstates.  As someone who is quite familiar with ORS 810.180 and 811.111, there's no direct indication of the meaning of "Speed" or "Speed Limit" on a speed regulatory sign--it's all sign policy emanating from the MUTCD Supplement and other ODOT policies, rather than any legal statute.

This smacks horribly of the MUTCD street blade sign requirement flap.  Except in that case, the intent was to increase readability, whereas in this case, inserting excess verbiage (the word "limit" decreases it).  The purpose of the sign should not be to merely inform the motorists that there is a speed limit, but rather, what it is, which the existing Oregon signs communicated far more effectively.  If there was any confusion about the meaning of the wording, all ODOT really would have needed to do would be to post signs to the effect of "SPEED XX is synonymous with SPEED LIMIT XX" near state borders and at other ports of entry (e.g. PDX).

[myosh_tino]

This smacks horribly of the MUTCD street blade sign requirement flap.  Except in that case, the intent was to increase readability, whereas in this case, inserting excess verbiage (the word "limit" decreases it).  The purpose of the sign should not be to merely inform the motorists that there is a speed limit, but rather, what it is, which the existing Oregon signs communicated far more effectively.

Now this may sound a little farfetched but I remember reading somewhere that because the Oregon "SPEED XX" signs use supposedly more expensive Series C digits, cities in Oregon wanted to use the standard "SPEED LIMIT XX" signs to save money.

Anyways, if legibility is a concern, might I suggest Oregon adopt California's speed limit signs that use 20-inch digits on a 60x48 sign?  While they're not as big as Oregon's 30-inch digits, they are far more legible than the standard FHWA sign that uses 16-inch digits.  Here are the three types of signs...


LEFT: Oregon SPEED sign (60x48, 30-inch Series C digits)
MIDDLE: California SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 20-inch Series E or E(M) digits)
RIGHT: FHWA/SHSM SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 16-inch Series E digits)

Note: I do not have specs for the Oregon SPEED sign.  Layout is approximated by manipulating a photo.

[doorknob60]

Yeah, within Bend, the trend started maybe 3 years ago or so. Every time a new speed limit sign is needed (construction of new roundabouts (quite common here haha), lowering of speed limits (happened a couple times too...no raising of course), etc.), the new sign that pops up has "LIMIT" on it. No existing signs have been taken down and I doubt they will be, but it seems that all new signs within the city are SPEED LIMIT. Also, a few of them have some really ugly numbers, I'll try to get some pictures (though most of them look normal).

[Bickendan]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

[myosh_tino]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

Except that isn't an approved traffic control device in the United States.

[Avalanchez71]

What is the back story with the Oregon speed signs anyway?

[J N Winkler]

What is the back story with the Oregon speed signs anyway?

The back story, in a nutshell:  under Oregon law speed limit signs say just "SPEED" (not "SPEED LIMIT") to indicate that the limit in question is prima facie in nature, not absolute--in other words, you can defend yourself against a speeding citation by showing that your speed, even if it was in excess of that posted, was not unsafe under the conditions.  "SPEED LIMIT" signs were rolled out for Interstates and school zones when the speed limits for those became absolute.  It now sounds like absolute speed limits are being rolled out to all public roads in Oregon, not just the Interstates and school zones.

[Truvelo]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

Except that isn't an approved traffic control device in the United States.

Well it should be. I can't think of anywhere other than North America that doesn't use a red circle for speed limits. The current speed limit signs can be confusing and I nearly got caught out last year when driving along route 55 in Indiana. I could see a 55 sign up ahead so I assumed it was the speed limit but when I got closer I could see it said Indiana rather than Speed Limit. There would be no such mistake with a red circle.

[1995hoo]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

Except that isn't an approved traffic control device in the United States.

Well it should be. I can't think of anywhere other than North America that doesn't use a red circle for speed limits. The current speed limit signs can be confusing and I nearly got caught out last year when driving along route 55 in Indiana. I could see a 55 sign up ahead so I assumed it was the speed limit but when I got closer I could see it said Indiana rather than Speed Limit. There would be no such mistake with a red circle.

Probably 75% of Americans (good chance the percentage is higher) would have no idea what the European-style sign meant.

I've never been to Oregon, but it seems to me their signs without the word "limit" are illogical because, read literally, they appear to be telling you the speed at which you must drive. That is, "SPEED 55" literally means "you are to set your speed at 55 mph." It's illogical for the same reason "REDUCED SPEED AHEAD" is illogical–they're telling you to reduce your speed. "REDUCED SPEED LIMIT AHEAD" would be grammatically correct, as is "REDUCE SPEED AHEAD" (which is used in North Carolina, and I've recently seen it in Virginia and Maryland for the first time).

[kkt]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

Except that isn't an approved traffic control device in the United States.

Well it should be. I can't think of anywhere other than North America that doesn't use a red circle for speed limits. The current speed limit signs can be confusing and I nearly got caught out last year when driving along route 55 in Indiana. I could see a 55 sign up ahead so I assumed it was the speed limit but when I got closer I could see it said Indiana rather than Speed Limit. There would be no such mistake with a red circle.

But nobody (well, hardly anyone) here would know what it means.  Some kind of state or local route number?

[myosh_tino]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

Except that isn't an approved traffic control device in the United States.

Well it should be. I can't think of anywhere other than North America that doesn't use a red circle for speed limits. The current speed limit signs can be confusing and I nearly got caught out last year when driving along route 55 in Indiana. I could see a 55 sign up ahead so I assumed it was the speed limit but when I got closer I could see it said Indiana rather than Speed Limit. There would be no such mistake with a red circle.

And along the same lines, if the Euro-style speed limit signs were to appear in the United States, they could easily be misconstrued as a route shield as some states use circles for their state highway shields.

[xonhulu]

I've never been to Oregon, but it seems to me their signs without the word "limit" are illogical because, read literally, they appear to be telling you the speed at which you must drive. That is, "SPEED 55" literally means "you are to set your speed at 55 mph."

Why exactly is this illogical?  Speed limits can and should imply that you should drive the designated speed.  Be nice if all drivers interpreted the speed limit that way - I'd find driving less aggravating if the slowpokes felt some pressure to match the flow of traffic.

As far as the topic, I don't see what the fuss is about, one way or the other.  The meaning of a sign reading "SPEED 55" is obvious to anyone except a complete moron.  It states in the Driver's Manual what these signs mean, and your acceptance of a driver's license means you have agreed to abide by the rules in that book. 

Arguably, "SPEED LIMIT 55" is open to interpretation, as well -- it could imply either an upper or lower limit.  "MAXIMUM SPEED 55" would be the clearest way to express this, but again this is unnecessarily wordy this simple concept.

Oregon had it right in the first place -- the signs were clear enough before, and the increased legibility was a nice side benefit.  Too bad they're being sacrificed on the altar of conformity.

[myosh_tino]

Arguably, "SPEED LIMIT 55" is open to interpretation, as well -- it could imply either an upper or lower limit.  "MAXIMUM SPEED 55" would be the clearest way to express this, but again this is unnecessarily wordy this simple concept.

California had "MAXIMUM SPEED" speed limit signs.  They went up because the NMSL conflicted with California's Basic Speed Law (reasonable and prudent based on the road condition).  MAXIMUM SPEED signs signified that the basic speed law did not apply.

There are still a few "MAXIMUM SPEED 55" signs on California's freeways although the "55" has been changed to "65" or "70".

[NE2]

Why exactly is this illogical?  Speed limits can and should imply that you should drive the designated speed.  Be nice if all drivers interpreted the speed limit that way - I'd find driving less aggravating if the slowpokes felt some pressure to match the flow of traffic.

Leaving aside the BS about how everyone must conform to the same speed, there are apparently low-traffic mountain roads where if you drive the speed limit for the whole thing you'll fall off.

[Tarkus]

Now this may sound a little farfetched but I remember reading somewhere that because the Oregon "SPEED XX" signs use supposedly more expensive Series C digits, cities in Oregon wanted to use the standard "SPEED LIMIT XX" signs to save money.

Actually, there's no standard whatsoever across the state, though there are a few designs that are common.  My personal favorite, which gets used in Washington, Clackamas, Marion, and Lane Counties (and possibly other places):



As far as I can tell, it's Series E, slightly stretched vertically, with the kerning reduced.  Extremely readable, and as a driver who is slightly nearsighted (I just barely pass the DMV vision test without glasses, but normally wear them when driving), I really appreciate it.  Seeing FHWA designs after being used to that strains my eyes.

One other common design is on a smaller sign, and uses Series D.

Anyways, if legibility is a concern, might I suggest Oregon adopt California's speed limit signs that use 20-inch digits on a 60x48 sign?  While they're not as big as Oregon's 30-inch digits, they are far more legible than the standard FHWA sign that uses 16-inch digits.  Here are the three types of signs...

LEFT: Oregon SPEED sign (60x48, 30-inch Series C digits)
MIDDLE: California SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 20-inch Series E or E(M) digits)
RIGHT: FHWA/SHSM SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 16-inch Series E digits)

Note: I do not have specs for the Oregon SPEED sign.  Layout is approximated by manipulating a photo.

Your specs on the Oregon one look pretty accurate.  The CA one is a good improvement over the FHWA design, but unfortunately, ODOT seems to be using the FHWA design, often with rather puzzling sizes that further diminish readability.  And the dimensional change is pretty stark--the numbers are only about half the height on the FHWA design, as opposed to the Oregon design.

Probably the most room one could get would be if the leading between "speed" and "limit" is condensed down further.  There's no reason for the verbiage to dominate the sign--which it does with the FHWA design (on your example, the Speed Limit text takes up 91px vertically, while the number takes up 71px), and it still takes up about equal real estate on the CA design (88px verbiage vs. 87px digits).  Idaho has probably come the closest to actually making the full verbiage work (quick and dirty mockup):

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

That eliminates the need for excess verbiage altogether.  I agree with Truvelo that it's kind of odd that only us and Canada don't use some variant of that.  If there was concern about it being confused with highway shields, there's always the option of adopting the Australian approach--putting the circle on a white rectangular sign.

Be nice if all drivers interpreted the speed limit that way - I'd find driving less aggravating if the slowpokes felt some pressure to match the flow of traffic.

Indeed--and especially if we, by some miracle, manage to get higher numbers on those signs here.

[Revive 755]

Well it should be. I can't think of anywhere other than North America that doesn't use a red circle for speed limits. The current speed limit signs can be confusing and I nearly got caught out last year when driving along route 55 in Indiana. I could see a 55 sign up ahead so I assumed it was the speed limit but when I got closer I could see it said Indiana rather than Speed Limit. There would be no such mistake with a red circle.

Except maybe in New Mexico.

[xonhulu]

Why exactly is this illogical?  Speed limits can and should imply that you should drive the designated speed.  Be nice if all drivers interpreted the speed limit that way - I'd find driving less aggravating if the slowpokes felt some pressure to match the flow of traffic.

Leaving aside the BS about how everyone must conform to the same speed, there are apparently low-traffic mountain roads where if you drive the speed limit for the whole thing you'll fall off.

Obviously.

[Alps]

Now this may sound a little farfetched but I remember reading somewhere that because the Oregon "SPEED XX" signs use supposedly more expensive Series C digits, cities in Oregon wanted to use the standard "SPEED LIMIT XX" signs to save money.

False. All MUTCD-related. This came up a few years ago.

[luokou]

I wouldn't mind the SPEED LIMIT signs so much if it didn't use Series E digits. Since I have to wear corrective lenses for my extreme nearsightedness all the time, having that space for larger numerals definitely helps quite a bit. There are plenty of examples of SPEED LIMIT signs with large D numerals that are aesthetically pleasing and easily more legible than the MUTCD standard; if it is mandatory that Oregon use SPEED LIMIT signs, they should go with that.

Actually, there's no standard whatsoever across the state, though there are a few designs that are common.  My personal favorite, which gets used in Washington, Clackamas, Marion, and Lane Counties (and possibly other places):



As far as I can tell, it's Series E, slightly stretched vertically, with the kerning reduced.  Extremely readable, and as a driver who is slightly nearsighted (I just barely pass the DMV vision test without glasses, but normally wear them when driving), I really appreciate it.  Seeing FHWA designs after being used to that strains my eyes.

The SPEED 45 sign just uses large, tightly kerned series D numerals (this is also my favorite style), and I've seen it as far south as Josephine and Jackson counties. Now if you wanted compressed/stretched to C-width E, Tigard has that horrendous looking design they've used in recent years. Here's an odd example on US-26 before the Vista Ridge tunnel on GSV: http://goo.gl/maps/grdke

[Tarkus]

Yes, upon further examination, that is Series D.  Tried to do a quick and dirty rendition of it:



And yes, those things in Tigard are hideous--their sign department is almost as bad as Yamhill County's.  The funky US-26 example I believe was a City of Portland design--they're all gone now, however.  As of the recent re-sign (beginning of 2013) that saw Market St get an exit number, ODOT replaced them all with borderline unreadable FHWA Speed Limit 50 signs.

[kphoger]

If money were truly the issue, ODOT would be smarter to adopt this style:

Except that isn't an approved traffic control device in the United States.

Well it should be. I can't think of anywhere other than North America that doesn't use a red circle for speed limits. The current speed limit signs can be confusing and I nearly got caught out last year when driving along route 55 in Indiana. I could see a 55 sign up ahead so I assumed it was the speed limit but when I got closer I could see it said Indiana rather than Speed Limit. There would be no such mistake with a red circle.

But nobody (well, hardly anyone) here would know what it means.  Some kind of state or local route number?

Easy fix.  Put "M.P.H." at the bottom.  After seeing about, oh, I'd say two of them, you figure out they're speed limit signs.  I mean, really, is there really any question about how México does speed limit signs?  Would you really not know it's a speed limit?  Not to mention that no state uses a red circle for its state route marker anyway–whereas plenty of states use white rectangles.

[deathtopumpkins]

Not to mention that no state uses a red circle for its state route marker anyway

[Bickendan]

That's different enough that one would have to be incredibly dense to fail to know the difference between a New Mexico shield and an international speed limit shield.

[deathtopumpkins]

You really doubt that American drivers can be that dense? I could easily see it being mixed up in poor visibility, or on an old faded/worn sign.

[Bickendan]

"Ociffer, I was going the shpeed limit - 599!!! hic!"