US-41 Interstate Conversion

[froggie]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but it appears AASHTO's route numbering committee discussed the US 41 corridor at their meeting last week and is interested in making it I-55.  Here's the entry from the meeting minutes:

"The USRN discussed the Interstate 55 through Wisconsin that connects with I-55 in Illinois. It was decided that the committee Secretary, M. Vitale, will coordinate with Wisconsin in sending a letter to Illinois and copying FHWA on the need for I-55 and to support the value of I-55. It is Wisconsin's intent to get this process completed by the AASHTO Annual Meeting 2012 in Pittsburgh, PA."

Let the fireworks begin...

[mgk920]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but it appears AASHTO's route numbering committee discussed the US 41 corridor at their meeting last week and is interested in making it I-55.  Here's the entry from the meeting minutes:

"The USRN discussed the Interstate 55 through Wisconsin that connects with I-55 in Illinois. It was decided that the committee Secretary, M. Vitale, will coordinate with Wisconsin in sending a letter to Illinois and copying FHWA on the need for I-55 and to support the value of I-55. It is Wisconsin's intent to get this process completed by the AASHTO Annual Meeting 2012 in Pittsburgh, PA."

Let the fireworks begin...

I would just be interested in seeing how WisDOT will ultimately handle its existing WI 55, which intersects US 41 (I-55?) in Kaukauna and then goes snaking its way tru da nortwoods all da way to da Michigan state line.  The other way, WI 55 is a semi-major state highway that runs southwards towards Fond du Lac along Lake Winnebago's east shore, becoming US 151 about half way down.

In Illinois, the point was driven home to me yet again a few weeks ago while I was driving down to the Joliet meet - that Tri-state Tollway (I-294)/Stevenson Expressway (I-55) interchange needs some big-ass major upgrades - regardless of what happens with I-55's numbering and continuance.

It now has some tight one-lane ramps and a couple of EZPass/unmanned coin drop tollgate lanes each way.

Mike

[JREwing78]

It wouldn't be terribly difficult for WisDOT to stick a 1 or 2 on the front of WI-55.

[mgk920]

It wouldn't be terribly difficult for WisDOT to stick a 1 or 2 on the front of WI-55.

Well, there already is a 'WI 155', but '255' is available.  Among two-digit numbers, '62', '84' and '99' are available.

Mike

[Stratuscaster]

Wait...now it's all becoming clear...

Run I-55 up the Ryan and Kennedy and Edens and into WI and all that...

And then when the IL-53/IL-120 extension-expansion is done, I-355 can get routed north and loop back to connect with...I-55. And because it's now a loop, it becomes I-455.

Make perfect sense, right? Right?

[on_wisconsin]

I can live very peacefully with I-55 if that ends up being the chosen interstate. Thank god they are not going with some sort of 3-di craziness!
Anyone want to make an I-55 state name shield for Wisco?

[mgk920]

I can live very peacefully with I-55 if that ends up being the chosen interstate. Thank god they are not going with some sort of 3-di craziness!
Anyone want to make an I-55 state name shield for Wisconsin?

Heck, in addition to a few full-sized ones, make up a bunch of them (well, enough of them) of about 50 x 50 mm size, with strong magnets on their backsides, that we can pass out at a forthcoming roadgeek meet....







Mike

[hbelkins]

OK, someone tell me why a 3di would be bad for this route.

[SEWIGuy]

I would just be interested in seeing how WisDOT will ultimately handle its existing WI 55, which intersects US 41 (I-55?) in Kaukauna and then goes snaking its way tru da nortwoods all da way to da Michigan state line.  The other way, WI 55 is a semi-major state highway that runs southwards towards Fond du Lac along Lake Winnebago's east shore, becoming US 151 about half way down.

My thought....

Keep it WI-55 north of WI-29.  South of WI-29, extend WI-160 south from the same interchange to WI-55's end with US-151.

[mgk920]

I would just be interested in seeing how WisDOT will ultimately handle its existing WI 55, which intersects US 41 (I-55?) in Kaukauna and then goes snaking its way tru da nortwoods all da way to da Michigan state line.  The other way, WI 55 is a semi-major state highway that runs southwards towards Fond du Lac along Lake Winnebago's east shore, becoming US 151 about half way down.

My thought....

Keep it WI-55 north of WI-29.  South of WI-29, extend WI-160 south from the same interchange to WI-55's end with US-151.

I was thinking on the same lines, except that instead of WI 29, I would cut WI 55 back to its north split from WI 47 at Keshena.  That split is a 90 degree 'T' intersection 'favoring' WI 47, making that a convenient ending point.

IMHO, the really big bugaboo with '55', though, is in Chicagoland.

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

Oh I forgot about the duplex with WI-47.  You are correct...much better endpoint.

[Stratuscaster]

OK, someone tell me why a 3di would be bad for this route.

Sounds like it would only be "bad" because someone thinks Wisconsin thinks it would be a "slap in the face" somehow.

You know, kinda like how some folks think that the red-white-and-blue Interstate shields are a magic generator of business and jobs when compared to a US shield or a state shield. But now it's that a 2DI is obviously MUCH better than a 3DI in that regard. I'm sure there are business studies that can be cited...somewhere. Or not.

Again, I'd personally tag it as I-243. If you absolutely have to have a 2DI from Illinois, then use I-57.

[on_wisconsin]

IMHO, the really big bugaboo with '55', though, is in Chicagoland.

One way WisDOT could potentially save themselves a lot of headaches is to deal with the Illinois Tollway (I-294 Tri-state) instead of dealing with only the Illinois DOT (I-94 Kennedy- Edens).

[mukade]

OK, someone tell me why a 3di would be bad for this route.

- Population served: The section in question goes from a metro area of over 1.5 million people connecting to counties with populations of around 100K, 160K, 175K, and 250K. To me, this area should have been served by a 2di Interstate from the beginning.
- The original Interstate plan: I would compare this to I-35 and to some extent, I-75. Not that extensions north of either of these would be be 3dis, but the original philosophy was to have longer 2dis (especially I-x5 ones). The fact that Chicago received a strange treatment where all three odd-numbered 2dis all ended south of the Loop created a different situation than Interstates going north from the Twin Cities and Detroit.

Why shouldn't it be a 2di?

[merrycilantro]

All right, so we've got some solid evidence in the 55 camp. I can live with that. And for a I-x5 freeway to get closer to being truly transcontinental, is even better. Quite frankly anything that's not a 2di or an intrastate number works for me. Can someone tell me: Spurs and bypasses off a 2di, can they repeat in individual states? example: if they wanted to sign, say WIS 441 and WIS 172, and maybe even US45 from the Richfield Interchange to West Bend, and then north of Oshkosh, as spurs, could they use numbers that are used in other states? I see it in place now, with I-155 in Illinois and Missouri/Tennessee...but is that an anomaly? Although, looking at Google Maps I only see 155 and 355 being used along the entire route (unless I have not zoomed in far enough). We could potentially have an I-555. I'd say either from Richfield to West Bend or more appropriately, Oshkosh to Stevens Point. then just do 855 and 755 for WIS 441 and WIS 172 respectively.

I wonder if they'll drop the 894 designation altogether...though I imagine they'd keep it on for the sheer fact that the outsider traveling through the Milwaukee area would then know that 894 will bypass Milwaukee.

Anyway thanks for the post from the meeting about I-55!

[Alex]

Can someone tell me: Spurs and bypasses off a 2di, can they repeat in individual states? example: if they wanted to sign, say WIS 441 and WIS 172, and maybe even US45 from the Richfield Interchange to West Bend, and then north of Oshkosh, as spurs, could they use numbers that are used in other states? I see it in place now, with I-155 in Illinois and Missouri/Tennessee...but is that an anomaly? Although, looking at Google Maps I only see 155 and 355 being used along the entire route (unless I have not zoomed in far enough). We could potentially have an I-555. I'd say either from Richfield to West Bend or more appropriately, Oshkosh to Stevens Point. then just do 855 and 755 for WIS 441 and WIS 172 respectively.

States can replicate 3di's from other states, but not within the same state. For instance there are seven different versions of Interstate 295 presently, with an eighth signed as a Future Route in Fayetteville, NC.

There was one instance of two Interstate 280 routings in Iowa: one an extension from Nebraska on the north side of Omaha, and the other the southwest portion of the Quad Cities belt route. The Nebraska-Iowa version was later renumbered to I-680.

[mgk920]

All right, so we've got some solid evidence in the 55 camp. I can live with that. And for a I-x5 freeway to get closer to being truly transcontinental, is even better. Quite frankly anything that's not a 2di or an intrastate number works for me. Can someone tell me: Spurs and bypasses off a 2di, can they repeat in individual states? example: if they wanted to sign, say WIS 441 and WIS 172, and maybe even US45 from the Richfield Interchange to West Bend, and then north of Oshkosh, as spurs, could they use numbers that are used in other states? I see it in place now, with I-155 in Illinois and Missouri/Tennessee...but is that an anomaly? Although, looking at Google Maps I only see 155 and 355 being used along the entire route (unless I have not zoomed in far enough). We could potentially have an I-555. I'd say either from Richfield to West Bend or more appropriately, Oshkosh to Stevens Point. then just do 855 and 755 for WIS 441 and WIS 172 respectively.

I wonder if they'll drop the 894 designation altogether...though I imagine they'd keep it on for the sheer fact that the outsider traveling through the Milwaukee area would then know that 894 will bypass Milwaukee.

Anyway thanks for the post from the meeting about I-55!

If anything, with US 41 becoming either I-55, 57 or even 65, I can see I-94 also being rerouted to replace I-894, with the East-West Freeway east of the Zoo Interchange becoming I-794 and the I-94 part of the North-South Freeway just becoming I-43.

As for the other interesting spurs along US 41 north of Milwaukee, I can see the US 45 West Bend Spur becoming 'I-3xx', WI 441 becoming 'I-4xx' and WI 172 becoming 'I-343'.  Note that there already are state highways in Wisconsin numbered '155', '157' and '165'.  Also, as upgrades progress, I can foresee US 10 between US 41 and I-39 becoming a westward extension of the 'I-4xx'.  Also note that US 45 between US 41 at Oshkosh and US 10 at Winchester has a couple of freeway-to-freeway 'missing moves' at the US 41 end (must use local street access ramps for two moves there), although there are other instances where I-route split interchanges do not include all of the turns.

We shall see.

Mike

[OCGuy81]

Well, there already is a 'WI 155', but '255' is available.  Among two-digit numbers, '62', '84' and '99' are available.

They made things work when I-39 entered the state, but granted WI-39 doesn't intersect 90/39.  Does Wisconsin have some aversion to using single digit routes?  1,3,4,5,6,7, and 9 are all available as well.

If anything, with US 41 becoming either I-55, 57 or even 65, I can see I-94 also being rerouted to replace I-894, with the East-West Freeway east of the Zoo Interchange becoming I-794 and the I-94 part of the North-South Freeway just becoming I-43.

Curious how this would work.  Would 94 and 55 be routed on I-894?  That would give Wisconsin another Interstate triplex, 43/55/94!  Kind of coool. Or would 94 keep it's current route?  I think 55 would make sense to route via 894 and then continuing north via the Zoo Freeway and intersecting with the current US 41 corridor.

[agentsteel53]

They made things work when I-39 entered the state, but granted WI-39 doesn't intersect 90/39.  Does Wisconsin have some aversion to using single digit routes?  1,3,4,5,6,7, and 9 are all available as well.

as far as I can tell, no single-digit state route has ever been on the books.  so, yes.

[mgk920]

Well, there already is a 'WI 155', but '255' is available.  Among two-digit numbers, '62', '84' and '99' are available.

They made things work when I-39 entered the state, but granted WI-39 doesn't intersect 90/39.  Does Wisconsin have some aversion to using single digit routes?  1,3,4,5,6,7, and 9 are all available as well.

As mentioned above, it seems so.

If anything, with US 41 becoming either I-55, 57 or even 65, I can see I-94 also being rerouted to replace I-894, with the East-West Freeway east of the Zoo Interchange becoming I-794 and the I-94 part of the North-South Freeway just becoming I-43.

Curious how this would work.  Would 94 and 55 be routed on I-894?  That would give Wisconsin another Interstate triplex, 43/55/94!  Kind of coool. Or would 94 keep it's current route?  I think 55 would make sense to route via 894 and then continuing north via the Zoo Freeway and intersecting with the current US 41 corridor.

The current plan for whatever number is chosen is for it to follow I-894 and US 45 around Metro Milwaukee.  That is the logical routing for those transiting the area between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) and right now has no single route number covering its entire length.  There are a couple of overhead BGSs on souteastbound US 41/45 (future I-xx) by the Milwaukee-Waukesha County line, in the area of 124th St and the WI 145 Granville Interchange, that include 'To I-894 Bypass' as a control.

See:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.164653,-88.070569&spn=0.008999,0.013797&t=k&z=16&layer=c&cbll=43.164741,-88.070698&panoid=9H5BInu_TQDQAbIIl7V9uQ&cbp=12,122.51,,0,-8.22
for an example.

Mike

[mgk920]

IMHO, the really big bugaboo with '55', though, is in Chicagoland.

One way WisDOT could potentially save themselves a lot of headaches is to deal with the Illinois Tollway (I-294 Tri-state) instead of dealing with only the Illinois DOT (I-94 Kennedy- Edens).

That would still require that the Stevenson be renumbered from there to Lake Shore Drive.

Mike

[OCGuy81]

That would still require that the Stevenson be renumbered from there to Lake Shore Drive.

I-555?

[merrycilantro]

I suppose, routing 94 onto 894 would allow for easier upgrading/reconstruction in the future. There was something in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel a while back that had one of the former mayors (who was extremely anti-freeway), planning to do just that, except turn 794 into an Urban Boulevard. Interesting view on the spurs...is there something that determines what freeway gets the spur (In Green Bay's case, I-43 or I-55)?

One would think, in regards to the Spring Meeting discussion of I-55, that if FHWA is going to coordinate with IDOT, that IDOT really can't back down, can they? ...

I guess with 55 in mind, now the question remains, do they route it up 294 — Tristate, or the Dan Ryan/Edens? And for those concerned with IDOT and Illinois Numbering, do they finish IL-53, route it back to the new 55 and change THAT number to 2/4/6/8-55? My thought was that at some juncture in the future, they would connect IL-53 to the current US12 freeway in WI and make a Chicago/Madison route. So many options, so little money (as I read) from IDOT to do anything.

...

[Jordanah1]

Why would two border state transportation agencies hate each other the way Kim indicates Wisconsin and Illinois do?

And isn't I-47 available?

Yes, it is, but just like with '55', WI 47 intersects US 41 here in Appleton.  WI 47 is, regionally, a much more important highway than WI 55 is, too.

Mike

i went to the interstate conversion meeting at the FVT oshkosh riverside campus, and they had 4 numbers on a map....I-41 extending from illinois bornder to green bay(assumingly would travel further south), I-47 from mitchel interchange-green bay, I-X43from hale interchange-green bay, and I-X94 from the zoo interchange-green bay.i think the X's were a 5 and a 7, but dont quote me on that.

[Revive 755]

Article in the Fond du Lac paper suggest I-41, I-47, I-55, I-594, or I-643:

http://www.fdlreporter.com/article/20120524/FON0101/205240352/-Interstate-41-would-benefit-FdL-area-officials-say?odyssey=nav|head