NY 17/"I-86"

[webny99]

Also, if Jamestown will no longer be the WB control city, will it still be for EB? I feel like Corning is a little too small to sign from all the way in PA. Heck, I never even understood why Corning was signed on I-390 from all the way in Rochester.

Corning makes sense. It's an old (albeit smaller) industrial city at the intersection of two interstates, even if they weren't interstates in the original 1956 bill. I'd prefer Birmingham as an eastbound control city, but Corning is fine.

Corning's population is only about 10k. That is really small for a control city from that far away, even if it's near the interstate junction. I would actually prefer Binghamton too, but Corning is already used on I-390. Maybe co-sign Corning/Binghamton between I-390 and I-99?

[vdeane]

I feel like Corning punches above its weight due to proximity to Elmira (which has a metro area large enough to have a MPO) and Horseheads.  Honestly, I'm surprised it's that low!  I tend to think of Corning as somewhere and Hornell a middle of nowhere podunk town, but they're only 2.5k apart.

[James]

Project D264886 will replace the overhead signs at the I-86 — I-390 split. The westbound control city is changing from Jamestown to Erie.

And I'm on board with Erie being the control city. I didn't have as big of an issue with Jamestown as some, but Erie is my preference.

Meh, Cleveland would be an even better control city.

Chicago!

Seattle!
Although I would prefer Cleveland as well.

At least I-86 ends near Erie. No reason to skip a city that's also used on I-90 in favor of one that's well beyond the end of I-86.

...and that same city probably shouldn't be signed on I-90 as well .

Also, if Jamestown will no longer be the WB control city, will it still be for EB? I feel like Corning is a little too small to sign from all the way in PA. Heck, I never even understood why Corning was signed on I-390 from all the way in Rochester.

Corning makes sense. It's an old (albeit smaller) industrial city at the intersection of two interstates, even if they weren't interstates in the original 1956 bill. I'd prefer Birmingham as an eastbound control city, but Corning is fine.

Tbh, I'm pretty unsure about what the control city for I-86 EB should be. I feel like even Binghamton is a bit too small to sign from all the way in NW PA. Jamestown honestly still seems like the correct choice for EB.

So, what the control cities for I-86 should be (IMO):

EB: Jamestown, Corning, Binghamton, NYC
WB: Binghamton, Corning, Rochester/Cleveland, Cleveland

[webny99]

Project D264886 will replace the overhead signs at the I-86 — I-390 split. The westbound control city is changing from Jamestown to Erie.

And I'm on board with Erie being the control city. I didn't have as big of an issue with Jamestown as some, but Erie is my preference.

Meh, Cleveland would be an even better control city.

Chicago!

Seattle!
Although I would prefer Cleveland as well.

At least I-86 ends near Erie. No reason to skip a city that's also used on I-90 in favor of one that's well beyond the end of I-86.

...and that same city probably shouldn't be signed on I-90 as well .

Why wouldn't it be used on I-90? It has the interstate junction with I-79, and I-86 practically ends there too.

[webny99]

I feel like Corning punches above its weight due to proximity to Elmira (which has a metro area large enough to have a MPO) and Horseheads.  Honestly, I'm surprised it's that low!  I tend to think of Corning as somewhere and Hornell a middle of nowhere podunk town, but they're only 2.5k apart.

Yeah, there's near-continuous development along I-86 between Corning and Elmira, making it feel almost like a single metro area.

(I might have actually guessed that Hornell was bigger than Corning.. but that's knowing how small Corning is, and the four-lane divided section of NY 36 approaching Hornell always gives me "mid-sized city" vibes)

[James]

Project D264886 will replace the overhead signs at the I-86 — I-390 split. The westbound control city is changing from Jamestown to Erie.

And I'm on board with Erie being the control city. I didn't have as big of an issue with Jamestown as some, but Erie is my preference.

Meh, Cleveland would be an even better control city.

Chicago!

Seattle!
Although I would prefer Cleveland as well.

At least I-86 ends near Erie. No reason to skip a city that's also used on I-90 in favor of one that's well beyond the end of I-86.

...and that same city probably shouldn't be signed on I-90 as well .

Why wouldn't it be used on I-90? It has the interstate junction with I-79, and I-86 practically ends there too.

It's just that I think I-90 should sign straight for Cleveland west out of Buffalo (or maybe even Pittsburgh/Cleveland to take the I-79 junction into account) so I-86 WB should also sign for Cleveland for consistency's sake...but tbh, I'd be alright with I-86 signing for Erie because like you said, that's very near where it ends.

[Rothman]

Oh brother.  Another stupid control city discussion has ensued despite the jokes.

[jp the roadgeek]

Cleveland does not need to be a control on I-86.  If anything, maybe a supplemental sign westbound before the I-86/I-390 split that says " "Buffalo use I-390 North" and "Cleveland use I-86 West" Erie/Cleveland should be used at major junctions on I-90 west of I-290 (I-190, NY 400, US 219).

[Alps]

Oh brother.  Another stupid control city discussion has ensued despite the jokes.

Can you please stop denigrating every single thread you type in? In multiple regions? Warnings will follow.

[Alex]

When I finally drove I-86 west of I-390 last year, I was looking forward to seeing what Jamestown looked like after seeing it on distance and guide signs on NY 17 west since early childhood. It is almost one of those "Blink and you'll miss it" scenarios, as it went by so fast it was already behind us. At least with Corning, you see a lot of the town and definitely know you were there.

Erie, PA works as a destination. Binghamton would be fine for eastbound as I believe it is the most recognizable city in the Southern Tier. And with a population of 44k, it is definitely the largest.

[kalvado]

Project D264886 will replace the overhead signs at the I-86 — I-390 split. The westbound control city is changing from Jamestown to Erie.

And I'm on board with Erie being the control city. I didn't have as big of an issue with Jamestown as some, but Erie is my preference.

Meh, Cleveland would be an even better control city.

Chicago!

Seattle!
Although I would prefer Cleveland as well.

At least I-86 ends near Erie. No reason to skip a city that's also used on I-90 in favor of one that's well beyond the end of I-86.

I still want to see a more generic discussion of what control cities should mean. My impression so far that using 2 cities may be the best approach in many cases

[ARMOURERERIC]

Harborcreek

[webny99]

When I finally drove I-86 west of I-390 last year, I was looking forward to seeing what Jamestown looked like after seeing it on distance and guide signs on NY 17 west since early childhood. It is almost one of those "Blink and you'll miss it" scenarios, as it went by so fast it was already behind us. At least with Corning, you see a lot of the town and definitely know you were there.

I definitely agree, however I think that has more to do with the Jamestown being located slightly south of I-86, rather than its size. It is surprisingly nearly 3x the size of Corning, but you don't notice it as much because I-86 doesn't pass as close to the city center.

[vdeane]

I feel like Corning punches above its weight due to proximity to Elmira (which has a metro area large enough to have a MPO) and Horseheads.  Honestly, I'm surprised it's that low!  I tend to think of Corning as somewhere and Hornell a middle of nowhere podunk town, but they're only 2.5k apart.

Yeah, there's near-continuous development along I-86 between Corning and Elmira, making it feel almost like a single metro area.

(I might have actually guessed that Hornell was bigger than Corning.. but that's knowing how small Corning is, and the four-lane divided section of NY 36 approaching Hornell always gives me "mid-sized city" vibes)

I actually always did think of them as a single metro area; I was surprised to learn that the MPO for the Elmira area does not include Corning.

[hbelkins]

I feel like Corning punches above its weight due to proximity to Elmira (which has a metro area large enough to have a MPO) and Horseheads.  Honestly, I'm surprised it's that low!  I tend to think of Corning as somewhere and Hornell a middle of nowhere podunk town, but they're only 2.5k apart.

Yeah, there's near-continuous development along I-86 between Corning and Elmira, making it feel almost like a single metro area.

(I might have actually guessed that Hornell was bigger than Corning.. but that's knowing how small Corning is, and the four-lane divided section of NY 36 approaching Hornell always gives me "mid-sized city" vibes)

I actually always did think of them as a single metro area; I was surprised to learn that the MPO for the Elmira area does not include Corning.

Concur. The stretch between Corning and Elmira/Horseheads is a bit reminiscent of I-64 between Ashland (well, the US 23 exit) and Huntington.

[machias]

I was just looking at those sign plans; I was wondering why R6 is using "Erie" when R5 uses "Erie Pa".

[webny99]

I was just looking at those sign plans; I was wondering why R6 is using "Erie" when R5 uses "Erie Pa".

This is only a technicality, but I would actually prefer Erie PA.

The Thruway uses (or at least used to use?) "Pa Line" on mileage signs, and as a little kid, I used to think Pa Line was an actual place.

[Alex]

I was just looking at those sign plans; I was wondering why R6 is using "Erie" when R5 uses "Erie Pa".

This is only a technicality, but I would actually prefer Erie PA.

The Thruway uses (or at least used to use?) "Pa Line" on mileage signs, and as a little kid, I used to think Pa Line was an actual place.

Pa is old abbreviation standards being carbon copied over. Like Fla. for Florida, Okla. for Oklahoma and Colo. for Colorado.
Agree that it should be Erie PA. All state abbreviations should be standardized this day and age but replacing signs in kind means the old stuff continues.

[jp the roadgeek]

The one thing I caught in the signage is the fact that the directional on the I-86 eastbound pull-thru at the I-390 interchange still has the directional to the left of the shield.  I thought MUTCD made it mandatory for the directional to always be to the right of the shield or above it. 

[amroad17]

Also, if Jamestown will no longer be the WB control city, will it still be for EB? I feel like Corning is a little too small to sign from all the way in PA. Heck, I never even understood why Corning was signed on I-390 from all the way in Rochester.

Corning makes sense. It's an old (albeit smaller) industrial city at the intersection of two interstates, even if they weren't interstates in the original 1956 bill. I'd prefer Birmingham as an eastbound control city, but Corning is fine.

You do mean Binghamton, correct?

I could see Corning as an eastbound control city, now that Erie will be signed WB from Corning.  Maybe there could be auxiliary signage along I-90 signed Jamestown/EXIT 37. 

In a New York post, I brought up the question of why Erie instead of Jamestown was listed on the newly erected mileage sign just west of Painted Post along I-86 WB.  These new posts here, obviously, answers my question.  However, as I stated in my New York post, the Erie mileage needs to be amended to 185, not 195.  Because of this, are mileage signs along I-86 WB going to be updated to reflect the control city change from Jamestown to Erie? 

The one issue with some of these mileage signs along I-86 is that they are not consistent.  New York usually signs mileages to city lines and not to the downtown areas.  So, Erie and Jamestown are signed around 42 miles apart.  For example, at the Findley Lake interchange (Exit 4), Erie is signed at 15 miles and Jamestown is signed at 27 miles.  If you drive west on I-86 into Pennsylvania, Erie is signed at 17 miles on the first mileage sign one encounters.  According to Google Maps, it is around 18 miles from the Findley Lake interchange to downtown Erie.  New York has the mileage to the I-90/PA 8 interchange, maybe near a sign denoting the Erie city limits.  With the new mileage sign erected showing Erie, the distances between Erie and Jamestown are 55 (should be 45) miles apart (195-140).

I-86 EB has very inconsistent (read incorrect) mileages to Binghamton.  At the Findley Lake interchange, Binghamton is listed at 246 miles--which is downtown.  The mileage sign after the Bemus Point rest area has Jamestown 5/Binghamton 216.  How can there be a 219 mile difference west of Bemus Point (the correct version) and then a 211 mile difference there?  The mileage should be 224.  Then, between Jamestown and Seneca Junction, every Binghamton mileage is 10 miles too short--also based on the Binghamton city limit sign near mm 243 on I-86/NY 17 EB.  Between Seneca Junction and Hinsdale, the Binghamton mileage is five miles short.  Maybe these signs could be updated and corrected sometime in the near future.

NYSDOT should change signage at the I-86 interchanges to what Region 3 recently has done in which the Interstate highway's direction and control city are posted with no mileage signs posted at the interchanges.  The mileage sign postings seem to be an old standard that NYSDOT still adheres to.  That is what post interchange mileage signs are for--if they do get erected.

[SGwithADD]

DEIS work has now started for the upgrade in Orange and Sullivan Counties, including the addition of a third lane in both directions: https://midhudsonnews.com/2022/10/06/planning-moves-forward-to-upgrade-ny-17-to-i-86-2/

[The Ghostbuster]

So is the upgrading of NY 17/future Interstate 86 starting in the eastern-most stretches of the highway, and then working its way westward? If so, it might be a long time before the upgrades reach Hale Eddy (where the upgrades are really needed).

[Rothman]

So is the upgrading of NY 17/future Interstate 86 starting in the eastern-most stretches of the highway, and then working its way westward? If so, it might be a long time before the upgrades reach Hale Eddy (where the upgrades are really needed).

We shall see.  There's been this flash of optimism about the conversion this year and I wonder if it will disappear as quickly as it manifested.

[seicer]

The easternmost stretches of the highway are routinely near gridlock each weekend in the summer, partly because of a resurging Catskills economy and because of the rapid (re)growth of the Jewish communities. I was quite surprised the first time I was heading out of the Catskills and saw bumper-to-bumper traffic for close to 20 miles from the Thruway west on a Sunday evening. Of course, it was backed up to the toll barrier which is now gone, but the backups still persist to a large extent.

Further west, traffic counts drop to under 10,000 VPD so the need to rebuild entire segments on new terrain is a lot less.

[Rothman]

The easternmost stretches of the highway are routinely near gridlock each weekend in the summer, partly because of a resurging Catskills economy and because of the rapid (re)growth of the Jewish communities. I was quite surprised the first time I was heading out of the Catskills and saw bumper-to-bumper traffic for close to 20 miles from the Thruway west on a Sunday evening. Of course, it was backed up to the toll barrier which is now gone, but the backups still persist to a large extent.

Further west, traffic counts drop to under 10,000 VPD so the need to rebuild entire segments on new terrain is a lot less.

Last time I was in the Catskills, I was shocked by the number of vacant, rotting old "resorts."

I wonder how much of that traffic stays overnight somewhere, or just tramples all over Kaaterskill Falls.