Traffic signal

[Caps81943]

Speaking of flashing yellow, can anyone tell me what the hell the point of this right FYA is in North Carolina? No possible pedestrians, no conflicting traffic that I can tell...it's weird.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2539391,-77.889551,3a,42.4y,83.21h,88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqlrWgP1UdGfE_Sm8_QzWcA!2e0!5s20161201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

[kphoger]

Speaking of flashing yellow, can anyone tell me what the hell the point of this right FYA is in North Carolina? No possible pedestrians, no conflicting traffic that I can tell...it's weird.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2539391,-77.889551,3a,42.4y,83.21h,88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqlrWgP1UdGfE_Sm8_QzWcA!2e0!5s20161201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

It could make sense if opposing traffic had a green left-turn arrow, but that obviously isn't the case at the time the picture was taken.

[Hobart]

Speaking of flashing yellow, can anyone tell me what the hell the point of this right FYA is in North Carolina? No possible pedestrians, no conflicting traffic that I can tell...it's weird.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2539391,-77.889551,3a,42.4y,83.21h,88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqlrWgP1UdGfE_Sm8_QzWcA!2e0!5s20161201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

If you poke around that intersection on street view, the flashing yellow phase appears to operate when the cross street has a protected left phase as well, so there's some purpose behind a right turn signal at this intersection.

However, a green arrow would have served the same functionality. Maybe they made it an FYA as a courtesy to jaywalking hitchhikers, or have a plan for a bike path next to the road in the future.

[Dirt Roads]

Speaking of flashing yellow, can anyone tell me what the hell the point of this right FYA is in North Carolina? No possible pedestrians, no conflicting traffic that I can tell...it's weird.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2539391,-77.889551,3a,42.4y,83.21h,88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqlrWgP1UdGfE_Sm8_QzWcA!2e0!5s20161201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

It could make sense if opposing traffic had a green left-turn arrow, but that obviously isn't the case at the time the picture was taken.

A number of years ago, I worked alongside some folks in what's now known as the NCDOT ITS and Signals Unit.  I'm going to make an educated guess here based on what I know about how the rulemakers at NCDOT adapt to unique situations.   

For left turns, in addition to adding PFYAs to signals that could display all reds during a cycle where a permissive left turn is now acceptable, NCDOT has also been downgrading a number of protected left turns to permanent permissive left turns.  I would assume that this change is based on a rule using the most recent traffic counts.  That same change could also be applied to protected right turns.  If you aren't familiar with the difference, the flashing yellow arrow can be lit during several phases rather than the solid green arrow being lit during that specific phase (and a solid red ball or solid green ball during other phases where the flashing yellow arrow is now allowable).  Early on, it was hard for folks here in North Carolina to get used to the PFYA.  Nowadays, it seems like most everyone understand that it means "Yield to Oncoming Traffic".

I should point out that my experience is quite different than the typical NCDOT project.  I had a bunch of grade crossings with adjacent traffic signals in two different counties, which was a project large enough to get 3 or 4 different "signal engineers" assigned to my project.  Instead, we were fortunate to get the "rulemaker" from [then] NCDOT Signals directly assigned to my project.  That's much different than working with someone who is trying to interpret the Signal Design Manual.

[kphoger]

Maybe they made it an FYA as a courtesy to jaywalking hitchhikers ...

Hitchhiking from the shoulder is perfectly legal in North Carolina, and I cannot find anything more restrictive in the Wilmington municipal code.

Chapter 20 — Motor Vehicles

§ 20-175. Pedestrians soliciting rides, employment, business or funds upon highways or streets.

(a) No person shall stand in any portion of the State highways, except upon the shoulders thereof, for the purpose of soliciting a ride from the driver of any motor vehicle.

[fwydriver405]

Speaking of flashing yellow, can anyone tell me what the hell the point of this right FYA is in North Carolina? No possible pedestrians, no conflicting traffic that I can tell...it's weird.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2539391,-77.889551,3a,42.4y,83.21h,88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqlrWgP1UdGfE_Sm8_QzWcA!2e0!5s20161201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

It could make sense if opposing traffic had a green left-turn arrow, but that obviously isn't the case at the time the picture was taken.

A number of years ago, I worked alongside some folks in what's now known as the NCDOT ITS and Signals Unit.  I'm going to make an educated guess here based on what I know about how the rulemakers at NCDOT adapt to unique situations.   

For left turns, in addition to adding PFYAs to signals that could display all reds during a cycle where a permissive left turn is now acceptable, NCDOT has also been downgrading a number of protected left turns to permanent permissive left turns.  I would assume that this change is based on a rule using the most recent traffic counts.  That same change could also be applied to protected right turns.  If you aren't familiar with the difference, the flashing yellow arrow can be lit during several phases rather than the solid green arrow being lit during that specific phase (and a solid red ball or solid green ball during other phases where the flashing yellow arrow is now allowable).  Early on, it was hard for folks here in North Carolina to get used to the PFYA.  Nowadays, it seems like most everyone understand that it means "Yield to Oncoming Traffic".

I should point out that my experience is quite different than the typical NCDOT project.  I had a bunch of grade crossings with adjacent traffic signals in two different counties, which was a project large enough to get 3 or 4 different "signal engineers" assigned to my project.  Instead, we were fortunate to get the "rulemaker" from [then] NCDOT Signals directly assigned to my project.  That's much different than working with someone who is trying to interpret the Signal Design Manual.

I'm probably guessing the FYA only flashes with the thru phases (2,4,6,8), as well as the compatable protected left turns on the perpendicular streets (Phases 1,3,5,7). On US 74, I thought the FYA would flash during N Kerr Ave's thru phases (4 and 8), but clicking around says no. I thought this becuase the right turns on US 74 looked like yield slip ramps. So basically, they only flash during the adjacent thru and the compatable protected left from the perpendicular street.

I'm probably also guessing there are no more load swtiches in the cabinet to house a green arrow, and/or there are no more overlaps available. The overlaps I could guess are the four right turn overlaps, and the two FYA overlaps (so 6 overlaps in use), and probably 8-12 load switches in use at this intersection (12-16 is the max I've seen in a TS2 cabinet).

Are U-turns allowed on US 74? At least for N Kerr Ave's right turns, using a green arrow would introduce a conflict if US 74's left turns are also allowed to U-turn as well. I know of a signal near me that changed out the shared right turn signal for a 3-section FYA due to the U-turns (link) causing a conflict with the right turning traffic.

For the record, South Portland ME has something similar, however at an actual slip ramp, where the FYA flashes on Phases 2 3 4 5 6, and is red arrow for Phase 1 (opposing left turn), or Phase 2 ped phase.

[roadman65]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/52030750683/in/photostream/

Why can’t Texas ( or at least Harris County) be much neater in  installing span wires?  The cables installed here have much to be desired.

In my state, only temporary signals, are allowed to look this badly.  Florida at least takes pride in their span wires. Occasionally you may have a mismatched pole or two or one strain pole taller than the other like on US 98 in Lakeland with two strain poles next to each other at two different heights and featuring two side by side diagonal span wires,  its nothing as so sloppy like there in the photo and many other Houston Area signals.

[Dirt Roads]

I'm probably guessing the FYA only flashes with the thru phases (2,4,6,8), as well as the compatable protected left turns on the perpendicular streets (Phases 1,3,5,7). On US 74, I thought the FYA would flash during N Kerr Ave's thru phases (4 and 8), but clicking around says no. I thought this becuase the right turns on US 74 looked like yield slip ramps. So basically, they only flash during the adjacent thru and the compatable protected left from the perpendicular street.

I'm probably also guessing there are no more load swtiches in the cabinet to house a green arrow, and/or there are no more overlaps available. The overlaps I could guess are the four right turn overlaps, and the two FYA overlaps (so 6 overlaps in use), and probably 8-12 load switches in use at this intersection (12-16 is the max I've seen in a TS2 cabinet).

Regarding the load switches, if the original phase had the opposing through green phase and the protected right arrow connected together, the new permissive flashing right arrow (PFYA) would have needed an additional load switch.  However, the total number of 30W incandescent bulbs that can driver through an individual contactor is limited, so it is still likely that there was a separate load switch for the original protected right arrow.  All of that is probably irrelevant here in North Carolina, as NCDOT is really pushing to standardize on PFYA all over the state and is probably not concerned about the cost of additional load switches.  NCDOT is concerned when the number of phases increases so as to require an upgrade to the traffic controller (so are all of the other DOTs that I have worked with).

[Mdcastle]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.4862384,-75.0234513,3a,41.2y,192.33h,85.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9cNYQiddh82qU5mpivQtZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Replaced between 2016 and 2018, but Vineland NJ had VERY old signals until recently. The biggest highlight to me is the fact that GREEN "walk" indications were used.

Anyone have an estimate on how old these were?

The signal head are Crouse-Hinds Type R,, mid 60s to mid 80s.

The peds have a standard lunar white lens. New Jersey was one of the places that used LPS-20s which required colored lamps (65 volt Red or Portland Orange and 130 volt Green or Lunar White), so they might have had a bunch of greens laying around and threw them in a standard ped signal.

[plain]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/52030750683/in/photostream/

Why can't Texas ( or at least Harris County) be much neater in  installing span wires?  The cables installed here have much to be desired.

In my state, only temporary signals, are allowed to look this badly.  Florida at least takes pride in their span wires. Occasionally you may have a mismatched pole or two or one strain pole taller than the other like on US 98 in Lakeland with two strain poles next to each other at two different heights and featuring two side by side diagonal span wires,  its nothing as so sloppy like there in the photo and many other Houston Area signals.

TX as a whole never really been clean with their wire installs, but I agree that Harris County is the worst. The state usually have to use extra wires in an attempt to keep the signals level, but not like Indiana, who does it right. They have the extra wires above the existing ones in most cases (probably because the signals are horizontal), which makes the install look messier than it already is.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QRhws7X9AoZXbSs28

This one in Galveston is truly horrifying
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1vdbZLYi6jVXGvD17
These vertical 4-ways don't look  quite as bad though
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xxJvfFxSWxmE1ttt5

Other TX locales are better at it but not by much
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hJ5gK3VbPY3GptGf8
https://maps.app.goo.gl/64WFvCBJQHSyj38g9

San Antonio generally does a decent job
https://maps.app.goo.gl/z5dTQuPcLp4gv3CK9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/S8Jx46rMzR7FSRgU7

[Mdcastle]

Just my opinion: All span wires look messy.

[kphoger]

Just my opinion: All span wires look messy.

I'm on the same page.  Someone will undoubtedly link to or post a view of a nice-looking span wire installation, but I'm sure I'll still think it looks a little sloppy.

[plain]

They are definitely messy, and I'm not saying this just because I'm a mast arm liking dude. Some places just suck with them and TX is definitely the king of such.

Indiana has the best wire spans around.

[US 89]

Wire spans in general look especially bad when they're with horizontal signals. This one in Austin, TX comes to mind as a prime example. Mercifully, it does not exist anymore as 290 got a freeway upgrade through there and the new signals there are all clean-looking mast arms.

[SignBridge]

Span wire installation, at least with vertical signals need not look sloppy. On Long Island Nassau County DPW and New York State DOT Region-10's installations are very neat and professional looking and probably among the best span-wire installations to be found anywhere.

Not only that but in NYS DOT's case, their span-wire installs actually look better in some cases, than their more recent very crude looking mast-arms which they are not very good at. And I'm a guy who generally prefers mast-arms.

Sorry, no photos to post. 

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/Ltkqotcxt3eYBXUJ6

This is an oddity. A horizontal signal head mount on s straight mast arm in California!  That's impressive. 

Usually CA likes it's curved mast arms except in SF, which even now is starting to conform to the rest of the state using back plates and phasing out the side mounts slowly.

However there is not even a clearance issue here that usually would be the exception outside Nebraska and Texas.

[jakeroot]

https://goo.gl/maps/Ltkqotcxt3eYBXUJ6
Usually CA likes it's curved mast arms except in SF, which even now is starting to conform to the rest of the state using back plates and phasing out the side mounts slowly.

"Phasing out the side mounts" ? Huh? California is definitely not phasing out side mounted signals.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/Ltkqotcxt3eYBXUJ6
Usually CA likes it's curved mast arms except in SF, which even now is starting to conform to the rest of the state using back plates and phasing out the side mounts slowly.

"Phasing out the side mounts" ? Huh? California is definitely not phasing out side mounted signals.

I mean San Francisco side mounts.   The ones like DC used to have solely.

[jakeroot]

https://goo.gl/maps/Ltkqotcxt3eYBXUJ6
Usually CA likes it's curved mast arms except in SF, which even now is starting to conform to the rest of the state using back plates and phasing out the side mounts slowly.

"Phasing out the side mounts" ? Huh? California is definitely not phasing out side mounted signals.

I mean San Francisco side mounts.   The ones like DC used to have solely.

I think I understand. I think better phrasing may be "phasing in overhead signals", as the side mounted signals are obligatory in California; in effect, overhead signals are supplemental to the side mounted signals, although both are used in 99% of cases.

[Bruce]

A very tall one on the northbound I-5 offramp to Northgate: https://goo.gl/maps/KGLH4hreDHqurfE37 

[plain]

A very tall one on the northbound I-5 offramp to Northgate: https://goo.gl/maps/KGLH4hreDHqurfE37

That's the tallest ground mounted signal I've ever seen.

[JoePCool14]

A very tall one on the northbound I-5 offramp to Northgate: https://goo.gl/maps/KGLH4hreDHqurfE37

Smart idea, although I bet it also encourages people to speed to try and catch the green.

[plain]

Found some more red arrows in Canada, this time in Gatineau. This marks the 3rd city that I know of and all of them are in Quebec.

Most of them are right turn reds in this case with at least one left turn example.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/he5j15LAWBaov4VV9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4QFMsMQ4tpf6DB6YA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/jznHy5SKPp8Er6ZQA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/JdcdHKFNaG2cU57L8
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aqDDxNYvg2QbsUoa9

[jakeroot]

Nice finds!

Indeed, it does seem that Quebec is the only province that installs red turn arrows.

I really don't understand the aversion to red arrows in Canada. I've heard it's related to luminosity; all-arrow displays have less lit area, so they are a bit less bright. Admittedly, I've noticed this myself in person in the US: arrow displays are definitely less bright. But then, is it really a problem? I don't know -- we made do with 8-inch displays for decades (and BC, until recently, still installed 8-inch displays very regularly), so I doubt the brightness provided by a 12-inch orb should be the minimum luminosity.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/Ltkqotcxt3eYBXUJ6
Usually CA likes it’s curved mast arms except in SF, which even now is starting to conform to the rest of the state using back plates and phasing out the side mounts slowly.

“Phasing out the side mounts”? Huh? California is definitely not phasing out side mounted signals.

I mean San Francisco side mounts.   The ones like DC used to have solely.

I think I understand. I think better phrasing may be "phasing in overhead signals", as the side mounted signals are obligatory in California; in effect, overhead signals are supplemental to the side mounted signals, although both are used in 99% of cases.

Yeah I should have said side mount only are being phased out in San Fran, but yes it’s really that SF is adding overheads to the existing signal system as well as adding backplates to them.  Nothing is being taken away as you pointed out.