Gen Z Is Choosing Not to Drive

[Rothman]

Labor productivity decreasing?  According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092

Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017:  $3.98B = $5B in 2023.

There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...

Another example, maybe more relevant to a parallel "Gen Z woes" thread:

The household median income in the U.S. in 1950 was $2,990 — roughly 40% of the median home value of $7,354 at the time, according to census data. By 2010, household median income was $49,445 — or 22% of the $221,800 median home value.

https://www.ctinsider.com/news/slideshow/How-much-the-typical-home-cost-in-your-state-in-228135.php

I really want to quote one pretty famous writer from Albany area here...

Those aren't measures of labor productivity...

[MikieTimT]

My Gen Z kids don't have a choice.  My oldest got our '06 Odyssey with 200K on the clock, but with all of the maintenance items done, and a nice set of wheels with Michelin CrossClimate 2 tires on it.  He got his permit at 14, has done over 10K miles in the driver's seat with double-digit state line crossings under his belt.  He also got his first accident out of the way with a goober in a 1/2 ton Chevy totaling out our '19 Ascent by T-boning it turning on Wedington Dr. into him.  He's got his license now and drives his sister and Mom to the gym a few times a week, and has an interview for his first job tomorrow to buy his gas going forward, his insurance, maintenance, tax, and pay back $3K if he keeps the van so that his 3 year younger sister gets money toward her first truck, unless he decides he wants to drive and pay for something else and she gets the van and the same deal.  I don't understand parents these days giving kids a choice to just stay home and turn into phone and video game zombies.  I'm going to make my house too miserable for them to want to stick around after college.  They need to launch and start to adult, even if they got to get roommates for a while.

[kalvado]

Labor productivity decreasing?  According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092

Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017:  $3.98B = $5B in 2023.

There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...

You mean bridges.  They built 2 of them.

And the 'many reasons for such a difference' goes probably way beyond what most people here would know.  Simple things like water runoff basins and modern end-treatments of guard/guiderails that weren't required 70 years ago will add to a project's costs today.

Sure. More environmental concerns, more safety protections. Same factors also drives car costs, from airbags-related costs to electric infrastructure upgrade ones.
Bottom line, though, is that cost per mile may go up  - and for this thread we can express that in terms of paid work hours of a young adult per 1000 miles of drive, for example.  I am not very comfortable with the math, but looks like people on this thread generally agree. And yes, there are fewer unpaid hours of DIY involved today, but personal time is often considered "free" anyway

[kalvado]

Labor productivity decreasing?  According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092

Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017:  $3.98B = $5B in 2023.

There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...

Another example, maybe more relevant to a parallel "Gen Z woes" thread:

The household median income in the U.S. in 1950 was $2,990 — roughly 40% of the median home value of $7,354 at the time, according to census data. By 2010, household median income was $49,445 — or 22% of the $221,800 median home value.

https://www.ctinsider.com/news/slideshow/How-much-the-typical-home-cost-in-your-state-in-228135.php

I really want to quote one pretty famous writer from Albany area here...

Those aren't measures of labor productivity...

Of course they are.  Indirect, but very telling.

[Bruce]

Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.

Because I've lived here for a quarter-century and know from walking around the suburbs that it is a miserable experience 80% of the time. There are teeny tiny pockets of walkable neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl with little to see or do without a car. Even my county's biggest tourist attraction (the Boeing Factory Tour) starts from a museum that has zero transit access; that's how little we've put into thinking about recreation access for people without cars (often not by choice).

[Max Rockatansky]

Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.

Because I've lived here for a quarter-century and know from walking around the suburbs that it is a miserable experience 80% of the time. There are teeny tiny pockets of walkable neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl with little to see or do without a car. Even my county's biggest tourist attraction (the Boeing Factory Tour) starts from a museum that has zero transit access; that's how little we've put into thinking about recreation access for people without cars (often not by choice).

I would suggest seeing how things are in other metro areas.   While your county isn't the best in Washington State, there are certainly way less walkable metro area in the United States.  I find myself working in Snohomish County for a week every other year at biannual conferences.  I'm not finding when go running that my experience replicates yours. 

Also how are we defining "not by choice" regarding having access to a car?  Are you referring to yourself or others? 

[Streetman]

From Newsweek:

Gen Z Is Choosing Not to Drive

Gen Z, the generation born after 1997, appears to be less enamored by the prospect of driving than previous generations, according to consulting firm McKinsey, with potential implications for the future of the car industry.

This group of Americans is less likely to have a license than its older counterparts at the same age. McKinsey points out that in 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds held a license. But those numbers have dropped substantially, and by 2020, only 25 percent of 16-year-olds and 45 percent of 17-year-olds have a driver's license, the consulting firm said citing data from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

I wonder how much is due to high insurance costs or the additional training and restrictions on new drivers aged 16-17 verses new drives 18 and older.

Even if they choose not to own a car, teenagers should learn to drive and get their license while still in high school. It's easier then than when they start taking on responsibilities of higher education and/or work. They may plan to live in a place where they can routinely get around by walking, biking, and public transportation, but there will come times when driving is an almost essential ability. They will be able to rent or borrow a vehicle for such things as transporting bulky items or vacationing or visiting friends or family members in locations not easily accessible by other means of transportation.

[1995hoo]

^^^^

In some states, it's easier to get your driver's license after age 18. In Virginia, for example, if you're under 18 you must take an approved behind-the-wheel course and have parental consent. If you're over 18, neither of those is required (you either take a behind-the-wheel course or hold a learner's permit for at least 60 days).

[Rothman]

Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.

Because I've lived here for a quarter-century and know from walking around the suburbs that it is a miserable experience 80% of the time. There are teeny tiny pockets of walkable neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl with little to see or do without a car. Even my county's biggest tourist attraction (the Boeing Factory Tour) starts from a museum that has zero transit access; that's how little we've put into thinking about recreation access for people without cars (often not by choice).

We're talking about walking, here.  So, yes, walking from Bothell to the Boeing Factory would be something only a few people would do.  And, "little to see or do" -- a lack of things you personally aren't interested in -- doesn't mean that there aren't opportunities to walk in the suburbs.  Shoot, my brother's family walks to church every Sunday in the 'burbs.  When I visit them, we go for walks together just going out his front door -- no car required.

So, although you may not want to walk in certain areas because you find them boring, doesn't mean that those areas are not walkable.

[Scott5114]

I was always of the impression that "walkable" meant "ordinary errands can be achieved by walking", and not "the sheriff shows up and shoots you in both legs if you try to walk anywhere", which seems to be closer to the definition you're going for.

[kkt]

When I was carless in Seattle, there were some nice places to walk or hike.  Discovery Park is accessible by bus.  So it Matthew's Beach.  Ravenna Park is accessible though small for a long hike.  The Foster Island trail and the UW Arboretum.  I could go on.

If the younger generation continues to avoid car ownership, I wonder if that will lead to the return of the neighborhood little grocery store.

[index]

From Newsweek:

Gen Z Is Choosing Not to Drive

Gen Z, the generation born after 1997, appears to be less enamored by the prospect of driving than previous generations, according to consulting firm McKinsey, with potential implications for the future of the car industry.

This group of Americans is less likely to have a license than its older counterparts at the same age. McKinsey points out that in 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds held a license. But those numbers have dropped substantially, and by 2020, only 25 percent of 16-year-olds and 45 percent of 17-year-olds have a driver's license, the consulting firm said citing data from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

I wonder how much is due to high insurance costs or the additional training and restrictions on new drivers aged 16-17 verses new drives 18 and older.

Also...

Uber and other rideshares didn't exist in 1997.

Older teens want something?  Order via Amazon.  Or UberEats.  Options that also didn't exist in 1997.

Parents, who have coddled their kids to the point where kids have no clue what unstructured playtime is, have never ridden a bike around the block on their own and are called upon for their every need, continue to drive them around.

Used car prices are much higher.

From my parents (now in their 60s) I experienced way too much of the coddling and sometimes, against my own will, and always to my detriment. My mother would freak out if I played with a kid whose parents she didn't know very well. She didn't teach me to tie my own shoes when I was very young, so when I was old enough to know how to figure it out myself, I had to do that when other kids my age were already taught. Never taught how to ride a bike, believe it or not. Everything was done for me, and I mean everything. I essentially had to learn everything myself, and far older than the normal age to first do things, because younger kids obviously can't figure out everything on their own.

And she would go as far as calling the police when when she discovered what unsupervised 11-year-olds do in their free time: make disgusting, crude jokes with their friends. She saw it over Skype, refused to believe they were my friends, and insisted they were online child predators targeting me. She got them to seize my computer. She claimed flash games that I played were covert attempts to get me child trafficked.

Coddling does a kid no good! I still find myself, at the ripe old age of 21, picking up the pieces of stuff my parents did not teach me, did to me, or neglected to do as far back as when I was 4 or 5. As far as when I was 14, 15, she'd baby me through every social interaction. That is a major reason I have social anxiety now. She felt the need to accompany me to the door every time I ordered a pizza to "help" me tip the driver correctly, to remind me to open the door for people, etc. Did not do me good at all.

I was stuck in the house 24/7 till I turned 18 for many reasons, this included. So I wasn't driving anywhere much. I quite literally had nothing to do but use the computer. It was miserable.

Gen Z at large has taken life at a slower pace, for better or for worse. I have noticed the same with a lot of my peers and friends my age. Parenting is a big factor in this, and I feel like a lot of it has to do with the fearmongering, paranoid post-9/11 education and culture that this generation received, and the culture of that era we grew up in. 24/7 news, abstinence-only sex ed, DARE. Teen pregnancy is way down. DUIs are way down. (Hard) drug use is down (but weed use is up). Young people have less sex, but when they do, safe sex is up. But mental health is worse. Social interaction is down. Dependency on parents, for both systemic reasons and individually responsible reasons, is up. Financial responsibility seems to be up when gen Z gets out of the house on our own. There is a lot more concern over quality of life and labor rights, which is good, however there are certain political elements that are a little...underdeveloped or misguided.

I guess the one good thing the coddling did for me is it made me want to just get away from dependency. Get away from home. I wanted to just do my own thing but I felt trapped by that. I've been pushing myself at breakneck speeds sometimes to ensure I don't need to rely on my parents for anything, for better or for worse, it gives me both relief and stress. My mother doesn't seem to like it and tries to imply my father is disappointed that I don't go to him for help (when he's not). Most people my age in college right now still rely heavily on them and I don't very much now.

I wonder how Gen Alpha is going to turn out when they're all being raised by iPads.

[Road Hog]

I have also seen Gen Alpha described as Gen 22, that is, those who can reasonably expect to be alive to see the 22nd Century.

[epzik8]

I have also seen Gen Alpha described as Gen 22, that is, those who can reasonably expect to be alive to see the 22nd Century.

Wild thought that some may be among me.

[ZLoth]

From my parents (now in their 60s) I experienced way too much of the coddling and sometimes, against my own will, and always to my detriment. My mother would freak out if I played with a kid whose parents she didn't know very well.

I can certainly relate. When aspects of your life is criticized such as who you hang out with, where you are going, how you are dressed, how you spend your money, etc etc etc gets overly criticized, one takes the path of the introvert and doesn't trust people. I ended up retreating to the computer. Actions have consequences, and as a result, I'm unmarried with no kids.