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Author Topic: Wisconsin notes  (Read 787415 times)

SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4100 on: May 30, 2023, 12:57:29 PM »

That law should include a provision requiring all cities and villages that are contiguous to any township proposing such a border deal to also give their assent to the proposal, also a provision to undo the damage that has already been done.  In the deeper future, when the 'suburban growth Ponzi scheme' inevitably implodes, we'll need a total top-to-bottom statewide rethink of local governance.  Why was Kekoske allowed to take over that township that completely surrounds Mayville?

I agree with your suggestion...although I am not sure what you mean by the "suburban growth Ponzi scheme."
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4101 on: May 30, 2023, 01:10:11 PM »

That law should include a provision requiring all cities and villages that are contiguous to any township proposing such a border deal to also give their assent to the proposal, also a provision to undo the damage that has already been done.  In the deeper future, when the 'suburban growth Ponzi scheme' inevitably implodes, we'll need a total top-to-bottom statewide rethink of local governance.  Why was Kekoske allowed to take over that township that completely surrounds Mayville?

I agree with your suggestion...although I am not sure what you mean by the "suburban growth Ponzi scheme."
. The phrase is from several articles hat I have read in recent years on the process of suburban growth in the post-WWII era, financing services to existing developed areas (especially very low density areas) by using and pushing new similar development.  Eventually, it runs out.

Mike
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4102 on: May 30, 2023, 02:41:03 PM »

I have never seen a speed limit-based decision to demote freeway status cartographically before.    Thatís just wrong. My guess is that itís WisDOTís desire to discourage use of the Beltline as an alternate route between Madison and the Dells (on the order of removing Oshkosh as a destination from the BGSs at the WI 26/US 151 interchange NE of Waupun).  WisDOT does some funny things to keep people from using some alternate routes, even though they sign others. Granted US 12 does back up horribly in Sauk City on summer weekends. 

Other minor updates on the 2023 map: 

Southwest Arterial/US 52 at Dubuque

Incorporation of Yorkville, Raymond, Greenville, and at long last, Somers. 

New cities reaching 10,000 people (with yellow tint):  Holmen, New Richmond, Sparta, Oregon, DeForest, Greenville, Salem Lakes (shown earlier?), and a large incorporated south of Sherwood (?). 

Improvements to US 18/151 and interchange with County Trunk PB/McKee Road. Interesting that PB is shown as multi lane divided to the west.  That is another frequent inconsistency: why are only a few selected divided CTHs depicted that way?
It looks like Sturgeon Bay and Tomah are next in line for cities reaching over 10,000. I beleive Hwy EB in Green Bay is also marked as 4 lane. But that's inconsistent because Moorland Rd in New Berlin is also 4 lane but the map does not mark it as such. I am sure that's not the only one.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4103 on: May 30, 2023, 03:07:13 PM »

I would like the Sturgeon Bay bypass to be expanded to four lanes between the CTH-U/Clay Banks Rd./Circle Ridge Rd. and the Business 42/Business 57/Egg Harbor Rd. roundabout (since STH 57 is four lanes from Green Bay to Sturgeon Bay). I don't know if the traffic counts warrant an expansion to four lanes on the bypass, but it would be nice.
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4104 on: May 30, 2023, 03:20:01 PM »

I would like the Sturgeon Bay bypass to be expanded to four lanes between the CTH-U/Clay Banks Rd./Circle Ridge Rd. and the Business 42/Business 57/Egg Harbor Rd. roundabout (since STH 57 is four lanes from Green Bay to Sturgeon Bay). I don't know if the traffic counts warrant an expansion to four lanes on the bypass, but it would be nice.

WisDOT would also have to build a paralleling Bascule drawbridge over the Ship Canal, too costly for the road's current traffic levels.

Mike
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4105 on: May 30, 2023, 03:34:43 PM »

I would like the Sturgeon Bay bypass to be expanded to four lanes between the CTH-U/Clay Banks Rd./Circle Ridge Rd. and the Business 42/Business 57/Egg Harbor Rd. roundabout (since STH 57 is four lanes from Green Bay to Sturgeon Bay). I don't know if the traffic counts warrant an expansion to four lanes on the bypass, but it would be nice.


I've been on the bypass during the busy traffic season and two lanes is busy, but by and large fine.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4106 on: May 30, 2023, 04:16:08 PM »

I have never seen a speed limit-based decision to demote freeway status cartographically before.    Thatís just wrong. My guess is that itís WisDOTís desire to discourage use of the Beltline as an alternate route between Madison and the Dells (on the order of removing Oshkosh as a destination from the BGSs at the WI 26/US 151 interchange NE of Waupun).  WisDOT does some funny things to keep people from using some alternate routes, even though they sign others. Granted US 12 does back up horribly in Sauk City on summer weekends. 

Yeah it sure was getting rough there yesterday.  Some crash had 90/94 all gummed up between The Dells and Portage, so even more folks were trying to get around it via Sauk.  So then I had to get around the traffic jam they were causing where the four lane ends and the first signal coming into the Sauk Prairie area from the north.
Oh and then one more jam on the Beltline where some crash had it down to one lane.  Took city streets between Middleton and home.

That was one of those drives where you could feel the frustration building as everyone seemed to want to be doing 90; just tons of FIBs tailgating.  Some shitheel even passed me on the goddamn shoulder in a construction zone because there was a truck micropassing me.  I'm like WTF? 

I would like the Sturgeon Bay bypass to be expanded to four lanes between the CTH-U/Clay Banks Rd./Circle Ridge Rd. and the Business 42/Business 57/Egg Harbor Rd. roundabout (since STH 57 is four lanes from Green Bay to Sturgeon Bay). I don't know if the traffic counts warrant an expansion to four lanes on the bypass, but it would be nice.


I've been on the bypass during the busy traffic season and two lanes is busy, but by and large fine.

I would think they'd wait until traffic became really untenable, then go for an expansion with a high-level bridge that won't need to open for passing ships.
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skluth

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4107 on: May 30, 2023, 04:58:31 PM »

^
I could see keeping the two lane bridge yet making WI 57 four lanes north of the bridge to the WI 43/57 split. The ROW looks wide enough to Egg Harbor Road and it would be taking minimal property if the ROW north of Egg Harbor Road isn't wide enough. I had to deal with that when I lived in Virginia and took the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel which only has two lanes through the tunnels but four lanes on the bridge sections. It worked pretty well but I see they've accumulated enough toll revenue to build a parallel Thimble Shoal Tunnel.
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skluth

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4108 on: June 01, 2023, 08:16:14 PM »

Just looked at the state map. The Fox Valley is starting to look like a mini-Milwaukee with all the yellow. There's a few gaps (Is Grand Chute still a township?) but that's a lot different from the map I remember just a few decades ago. Wrightstown may only be a bit over 3K now, but they've annexed the land east of I-41 between Wrightstown Rd and CTH U so it wouldn't surprise me to see that blow up this decade. Wrightstown is the biggest gap in yellow from Suamico to Oshkosh.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4109 on: June 01, 2023, 10:35:39 PM »

Just looked at the state map. The Fox Valley is starting to look like a mini-Milwaukee with all the yellow. There's a few gaps (Is Grand Chute still a township?) but that's a lot different from the map I remember just a few decades ago. Wrightstown may only be a bit over 3K now, but they've annexed the land east of I-41 between Wrightstown Rd and CTH U so it wouldn't surprise me to see that blow up this decade. Wrightstown is the biggest gap in yellow from Suamico to Oshkosh.

It will be filled in eventually. Thatís why I-41 expansion is so important.
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4110 on: June 03, 2023, 01:01:25 PM »

Just looked at the state map. The Fox Valley is starting to look like a mini-Milwaukee with all the yellow. There's a few gaps (Is Grand Chute still a township?) but that's a lot different from the map I remember just a few decades ago. Wrightstown may only be a bit over 3K now, but they've annexed the land east of I-41 between Wrightstown Rd and CTH U so it wouldn't surprise me to see that blow up this decade. Wrightstown is the biggest gap in yellow from Suamico to Oshkosh.

It will be filled in eventually. Thatís why I-41 expansion is so important.

Yea, that township west and north of Appleton is still there, and their streets and major developed area are still falling apart.  They should have been added to Appleton back when Preble joined Green Bay.   The area around the slowly dying Fox River Mall is an embarrassment to the city.

Mike
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midwesternroadguy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4111 on: June 04, 2023, 10:39:39 PM »

It looks like Sturgeon Bay and Tomah are next in line for cities reaching over 10,000. I beleive Hwy EB in Green Bay is also marked as 4 lane. But that's inconsistent because Moorland Rd in New Berlin is also 4 lane but the map does not mark it as such. I am sure that's not the only one.
[/quote]

I would also add McFarland and Reedsburg as good candidates for exceeding 10,000 in the 2030 census.  A dark horse might be Windsor or Cottage Grove. 
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mgk920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4112 on: June 05, 2023, 11:15:36 AM »

It looks like Sturgeon Bay and Tomah are next in line for cities reaching over 10,000. I beleive Hwy EB in Green Bay is also marked as 4 lane. But that's inconsistent because Moorland Rd in New Berlin is also 4 lane but the map does not mark it as such. I am sure that's not the only one.

I would also add McFarland and Reedsburg as good candidates for exceeding 10,000 in the 2030 census.  A dark horse might be Windsor or Cottage Grove.
[/quote]

Has the time come to drop that threshold to 20K or 25K?

Mike
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4113 on: June 05, 2023, 11:25:42 AM »


Has the time come to drop that threshold to 20K or 25K?


Given the scale they're working at for the state map, I don't think so.  The point of showing the incorporations of 10k+ is so one can omit some cartographic details like county roads, unincorporated place names and even interchange squares, in the case of Milwaukee.

However, I do feel like getting that yellow on the state-level map is cause for potentially having an inset map for that city.  Been a long time since the official map did anything different with insets.  Gotta be like 20 years since they added that Lake Country map for Waukesha County and the central Madison inset.  That was the last big change.
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thspfc

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4114 on: June 05, 2023, 02:38:16 PM »

It looks like Sturgeon Bay and Tomah are next in line for cities reaching over 10,000. I beleive Hwy EB in Green Bay is also marked as 4 lane. But that's inconsistent because Moorland Rd in New Berlin is also 4 lane but the map does not mark it as such. I am sure that's not the only one.

I would also add McFarland and Reedsburg as good candidates for exceeding 10,000 in the 2030 census.  A dark horse might be Windsor or Cottage Grove.
Windsor probably will. Reedsburg only needs 16 more people. McFarland and Cottage Grove could, though I would put the odds at less than 50%.
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peterj920

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4115 on: June 05, 2023, 06:13:32 PM »

It looks like Sturgeon Bay and Tomah are next in line for cities reaching over 10,000. I beleive Hwy EB in Green Bay is also marked as 4 lane. But that's inconsistent because Moorland Rd in New Berlin is also 4 lane but the map does not mark it as such. I am sure that's not the only one.

I would also add McFarland and Reedsburg as good candidates for exceeding 10,000 in the 2030 census.  A dark horse might be Windsor or Cottage Grove.
Windsor probably will. Reedsburg only needs 16 more people. McFarland and Cottage Grove could, though I would put the odds at less than 50%.

And Kenosha was so close to becoming the 4th city with over 100,000 people at 99,986 at the 2020 census.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4116 on: June 05, 2023, 08:00:59 PM »

It looks like Sturgeon Bay and Tomah are next in line for cities reaching over 10,000. I beleive Hwy EB in Green Bay is also marked as 4 lane. But that's inconsistent because Moorland Rd in New Berlin is also 4 lane but the map does not mark it as such. I am sure that's not the only one.

I would also add McFarland and Reedsburg as good candidates for exceeding 10,000 in the 2030 census.  A dark horse might be Windsor or Cottage Grove.
Windsor probably will. Reedsburg only needs 16 more people. McFarland and Cottage Grove could, though I would put the odds at less than 50%.

And Kenosha was so close to becoming the 4th city with over 100,000 people at 99,986 at the 2020 census.

I thought at one point that Kenosha might surpass Green Bay as the state's third largest city, but it looks like their growth has stalled out.
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hobsini2

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4117 on: June 06, 2023, 10:34:30 AM »

I could see Waukesha potentially be the next city over 100k.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4118 on: June 06, 2023, 10:39:36 AM »

I could see Waukesha potentially be the next city over 100k.

Kenosha is less than 100 people away, so I think that's obviously going to be the next one.

The problem with Waukesha is that it's been hemmed in with incorporated municipalities so there isn't much room to grow. It only grew by about 400 people between 2010 and 2020 - and sits at 71,000.

I actually think it will be quite awhile for another Wisconsin city to hit that mark after Kenosha. The largest of the remaining are all 20,000+ away and have the same issues that Waukesha has.
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hobsini2

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4119 on: June 06, 2023, 10:53:07 AM »

I could see Waukesha potentially be the next city over 100k.

Kenosha is less than 100 people away, so I think that's obviously going to be the next one.

The problem with Waukesha is that it's been hemmed in with incorporated municipalities so there isn't much room to grow. It only grew by about 400 people between 2010 and 2020 - and sits at 71,000.

I actually think it will be quite awhile for another Wisconsin city to hit that mark after Kenosha. The largest of the remaining are all 20,000+ away and have the same issues that Waukesha has.
Damn Town of Pewaukee. :)
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skluth

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4120 on: June 06, 2023, 01:13:31 PM »

I could see Waukesha potentially be the next city over 100k.

Kenosha is less than 100 people away, so I think that's obviously going to be the next one.

The problem with Waukesha is that it's been hemmed in with incorporated municipalities so there isn't much room to grow. It only grew by about 400 people between 2010 and 2020 - and sits at 71,000.

I actually think it will be quite awhile for another Wisconsin city to hit that mark after Kenosha. The largest of the remaining are all 20,000+ away and have the same issues that Waukesha has.

Kenosha last three censuses:
2000  90,352
2010  99,218
2020  99,986

Kenosha's growth has been slowing. It may have even peaked like Racine. It wouldn't surprise me if the 2030 census showed a population decline even if it ekes over 100k in the next year or two.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4121 on: June 06, 2023, 03:29:17 PM »

Kenosha was able to annex its way across I-94 to keep it's population growth up for a while there, but now like it's neighbor just up the coast, they're hemmed in by other villages/cities.  Kind of interesting that Racine and Kenosha have basically switched population sizes in the last 50 years.  If not for Kenosha's aggressive annexations, that wouldn't have happened.
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dvferyance

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Re: Wisconsin notes
« Reply #4122 on: June 07, 2023, 10:56:29 PM »


Has the time come to drop that threshold to 20K or 25K?


Given the scale they're working at for the state map, I don't think so.  The point of showing the incorporations of 10k+ is so one can omit some cartographic details like county roads, unincorporated place names and even interchange squares, in the case of Milwaukee.

However, I do feel like getting that yellow on the state-level map is cause for potentially having an inset map for that city.  Been a long time since the official map did anything different with insets.  Gotta be like 20 years since they added that Lake Country map for Waukesha County and the central Madison inset.  That was the last big change.
I believe West Bend is the largest city without an inset on the state map.
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