Metrication

[1995hoo]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

I recall one of the humor magazines, either Cracked or Mad, had a poster that said something like, "We don't want no foreign rulers. Join the fight against metrics."

[kkt]

Would it really be necessary to make new signs if in fact all the signs were to be replaced over a single weekend? Would it not be possible to have stick-on labels with the new metric speed limits to cover over the old numbers?

Perhaps, but it would probably take more labor on change weekend and I see a fair number of applied labels that don't stay stuck.

[NWI_Irish96]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

The cost argument isn't disingenuous. It would cost hundreds of millions to convert mileage signs to metric.

[kalvado]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

The cost argument isn't disingenuous. It would cost hundreds of millions to convert mileage signs to metric.

$2 per driver?

[NWI_Irish96]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

The cost argument isn't disingenuous. It would cost hundreds of millions to convert mileage signs to metric.

$2 per driver?

I was just throwing a number out there. It could very well cost over a billion, and it's a hard sell spending that kind of money when it could go to health care or education or something like that.

[kalvado]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

The cost argument isn't disingenuous. It would cost hundreds of millions to convert mileage signs to metric.

$2 per driver?

I was just throwing a number out there. It could very well cost over a billion, and it's a hard sell spending that kind of money when it could go to health care or education or something like that.

2 hours worth of US national debt? And you think $3 per  person would do anything in terms of education?

[TXtoNJ]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

I'd even go so far as to say it's more like "you can't make me!"

[algorerhythms]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

That's my biggest issue with the metric opponents. Almost all of their arguments are disingenuous in some way.

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

The cost argument isn't disingenuous. It would cost hundreds of millions to convert mileage signs to metric.

$2 per driver?

I was just throwing a number out there. It could very well cost over a billion, and it's a hard sell spending that kind of money when it could go to health care or education or something like that.

Do you have a number that isn't rectally derived?

[Bruce]

Canada in a nutshell:

[1995hoo]

^^^^

Heh. Regarding "is it your weight," I once flipped the bathroom scale to kilograms, partly to mess with my wife and partly so that when she asked why I did it I could respond, "90.72 sounds a lot better than 200." She was not amused.

[7/8]

Canada in a nutshell:

This is quite accurate, with only some caveats:

• "Mass > ... > Is it very heavy? > No > Lbs" - Not always true, when we buy cold cuts at the deli, we buy it in grams
• "Distance > ... > Is it related to work? > Yes > Imperial" - For my job as a municipal infrastructure engineer, things are generally specified in metric, and thankfully our CAD drawings are also done in metric. However, there is a lot of "soft metric", like our pipe sizes being 200mm, 250mm, 300mm, 375mm, 450mm, etc. (equivalent to 8", 10", 12", 15", 18", etc.). One thing that can be annoying is sometimes the contractors' reference things in imperial even though the drawings and specs use metric, so you have to get used to the conversions

Personally I'm working on getting used to water temperatures in Celsius after growing up with them in Fahrenheit. Why should water temperature be on a different scale from air temperature?

[1995hoo]

Canada in a nutshell:

This is quite accurate, with only some caveats:

• "Mass > ... > Is it very heavy? > No > Lbs" - Not always true, when we buy cold cuts at the deli, we buy it in grams

....

I have been to multiple grocery stores in Canada where plenty of customers order in pounds (or fractions thereof) and the employees just look at a chart to make the appropriate conversion to either grams or kilograms, depending on what unit the scale uses. I commented on that once and an employee said it's simply a convenience thing—enough customers prefer English units that it's easier for the employees just to have a conversion chart posted showing the most popular quantities.

To some extent, that underscores a point I made multiple times earlier in the thread that Poiponen, in particular, is apparently unable to understand: Regardless of what the government declares the standard of weights and measures to be, there is nothing stopping anyone from using other measurements in his day-to-day life if he so chooses. Consider it from a practical standpoint: Nobody is going to throw out all of her cookbooks and other recipes simply because they're written in English units rather than metric, nor will she go through marking them all up to list the metric equivalents. If a recipe calls for two cups of flour, she'll pull out a one-cup measuring cup and measure out two cupfuls. This is all just obvious common sense. Now, might there be a mild adjustment when buying certain ingredients at the store that you don't use very often? Perhaps—but I would argue that is already the case because so many American recipes are written by volume while ingredients are generally sold by mass or weight, so you wind up having either to do a conversion (I use an app called Kitchen Calculator Pro) or just guessing at how much to buy. If the store sold ingredients in metric units, it would simply mean converting to a different unit (grams or kilograms) instead of ounces or pounds.

[algorerhythms]

Being a scientist, "Is it related to work?" Yes -> metric, even in the United States.

^^^^

Heh. Regarding "is it your weight," I once flipped the bathroom scale to kilograms, partly to mess with my wife and partly so that when she asked why I did it I could respond, "90.72 sounds a lot better than 200." She was not amused.

My mom (who gets pissed off at me whenever I mention the temperature in Celsius) changed her scale to kg by accident, and decided to keep it that way because she liked the smaller number.

I have been to multiple grocery stores in Canada where plenty of customers order in pounds (or fractions thereof) and the employees just look at a chart to make the appropriate conversion to either grams or kilograms, depending on what unit the scale uses. I commented on that once and an employee said it's simply a convenience thing—enough customers prefer English units that it's easier for the employees just to have a conversion chart posted showing the most popular quantities.

I think it sort of varies by store. Shortly after I moved to Canada I went to a local deli (one with sort of a Polish theme), and without thinking about it ordered in pounds. The girl taking my order looked at me like I had three heads.

[1995hoo]

I have been to multiple grocery stores in Canada where plenty of customers order in pounds (or fractions thereof) and the employees just look at a chart to make the appropriate conversion to either grams or kilograms, depending on what unit the scale uses. I commented on that once and an employee said it's simply a convenience thing—enough customers prefer English units that it's easier for the employees just to have a conversion chart posted showing the most popular quantities.

I think it sort of varies by store. Shortly after I moved to Canada I went to a local deli (one with sort of a Polish theme), and without thinking about it ordered in pounds. The girl taking my order looked at me like I had three heads.

I wonder whether the age of the person behind the counter might also make a difference. I remember when the Guns N Roses album Chinese Democracy was released. There was some publicity about Best Buy carrying it on LP. I went to Best Buy and could only find CDs. I asked an employee and he didn't know anything about the LP. I then found a more senior employee. He went in the back to look and came out carrying a stack of LPs. He was quite apologetic—he said the younger employees thought those were publicity materials and that the store had simply been sent more than they needed. 

[Big John]

Mass and weight are separate items.  Technically kilogram is a unit of mass and pound is a unit of weight.  Conversions are done using Earth's gravity.  Newtons are the metric unit of weight and slug the English unit of mass.  But mostly the former is used for convenience.

[kalvado]

Mass and weight are separate items.  Technically kilogram is a unit of mass and pound is a unit of weight.  Conversions are done using Earth's gravity.  Newtons are the metric unit of weight and slug the English unit of mass.  But mostly the former is used for convenience.

Yet 1 avoirdupois pound = 0.453 592 37 kilogram by definition.

[GaryV]

I think it sort of varies by store. Shortly after I moved to Canada I went to a local deli (one with sort of a Polish theme), and without thinking about it ordered in pounds. The girl taking my order looked at me like I had three heads.

Maybe because you ordered pounds of Polish food.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa-mHc51SJo

[mgk920]

^^^^

Heh. Regarding "is it your weight," I once flipped the bathroom scale to kilograms, partly to mess with my wife and partly so that when she asked why I did it I could respond, "90.72 sounds a lot better than 200." She was not amused.

Not in the British 'stones'?

Mike

[kkt]

^^^^

Heh. Regarding "is it your weight," I once flipped the bathroom scale to kilograms, partly to mess with my wife and partly so that when she asked why I did it I could respond, "90.72 sounds a lot better than 200." She was not amused.

Not in the British 'stones'?

Mike

There are exceptions for a lot of fields.  Barrels for oil, carats for gemstones, their own special ounces for precious metals, light minutes, hours, days, and years for long distances...

[1995hoo]

^^^^

Heh. Regarding "is it your weight," I once flipped the bathroom scale to kilograms, partly to mess with my wife and partly so that when she asked why I did it I could respond, "90.72 sounds a lot better than 200." She was not amused.

Not in the British 'stones'?

Mike

Our scale has pounds and kilograms.

[algorerhythms]

I have been to multiple grocery stores in Canada where plenty of customers order in pounds (or fractions thereof) and the employees just look at a chart to make the appropriate conversion to either grams or kilograms, depending on what unit the scale uses. I commented on that once and an employee said it's simply a convenience thing—enough customers prefer English units that it's easier for the employees just to have a conversion chart posted showing the most popular quantities.

I think it sort of varies by store. Shortly after I moved to Canada I went to a local deli (one with sort of a Polish theme), and without thinking about it ordered in pounds. The girl taking my order looked at me like I had three heads.

I wonder whether the age of the person behind the counter might also make a difference. I remember when the Guns N Roses album Chinese Democracy was released. There was some publicity about Best Buy carrying it on LP. I went to Best Buy and could only find CDs. I asked an employee and he didn't know anything about the LP. I then found a more senior employee. He went in the back to look and came out carrying a stack of LPs. He was quite apologetic—he said the younger employees thought those were publicity materials and that the store had simply been sent more than they needed. 

That's likely. She looked like a teenager. From talking to coworkers, it seems like in Canada if you're using imperial units regularly, you're either old or American (or both).

[lordsutch]

The primary argument against metrication in US is "we don't want that!"
Everything else is just supporting the primary argument.

Well, not exactly. The primary argument is that the status quo of posting road signs in traditional units does not impose high enough costs that they would outweigh the benefits of changing to metric. The countries that did change largely changed for political reasons: to appease a share of the population that resented past British colonial rule and/or out of an appeal to "modernity" (usually in the area of science education, lest the west be eclipsed by the Soviet Union and all that jazz), as if a country's modernity or superiority can be measured by the relative magnitude of the numbers posted on its road signs.

Tellingly, though, Britain itself did not change, even though arguably (at least during the EEC/EU era) it was the one non-metricating country that faced the highest effective costs from non-metrication due to the influx of non-British truck/HGV drivers on British roads who were unfamiliar with imperial measures, even to this day only going as far as dual-marking for low bridges and the like.

[US 89]

Mass and weight are separate items.  Technically kilogram is a unit of mass and pound is a unit of weight.  Conversions are done using Earth's gravity.  Newtons are the metric unit of weight and slug the English unit of mass.  But mostly the former is used for convenience.

I remember in my ordinary differential equations class, we had to do word problems that involved mass in slugs. It took some serious getting used to, since up to that point any situation I had ever encountered that involved the distinction between mass and force had been in physics or other science classes that used entirely SI/metric units. All my math classes always used a mix of customary and metric units, presumably for the benefit of future engineers who would need to be well versed in both. I'd gotten quite comfortable with speeds in feet per second or accelerations in feet per second squared, but the slugs were a new one for me that semester. I haven't used them since.

A slug, by the way, is the mass that is accelerated by 1 ft/s² when a force of 1 pound is exerted on it. Worth noting that there are some customary systems of measurement that do actually use the pound as a mass unit. Those systems use for their force unit either the "poundal", which is the force required to accelerate one pound mass by 1 ft/s², or the "pound-force", which is equal to the gravitational force exerted on one pound mass by standard Earth gravity (or the force required to accelerate 1 slug by 1 ft/s²). So using standard gravity (acceleration of 32.174 ft/s²), a slug weighs about 32.174 pounds, and 32.174 poundals is equal to 1 pound-force.

If that sounds confusing, it's why most of the world has switched to metric, where it is far simpler - 1 newton is the force required to accelerate 1 kg mass by 1 m/s². Even the US has switched to metric in a lot of fields where this mass-force distinction is especially relevant.

[freebrickproductions]

I also vividlyremember the individual states hopping right to it when the NMSL was repealed and speed limit setting authority was returned to them.  That told me that that the arguments about 'the seriously long time needed to change all of the signs' were all nothing more than red herrings.

Mike

I do see one very significant difference between that scenario and a metric conversion. In the NMSL scenario, most states had to change signs only on a relatively small subset of roads, usually Interstates, Interstate look-alikes, and sometimes some multilane divided highways. They didn't change all the urban arterials, residential neighborhood streets, etc. A conversion to metric would require changing every sign on every street that has one. The residential streets are probably the prime example of where they'd seek to deputize local residents for assistance, of course.

Australia also managed to do that.

IIRC, part of how they did it was by allowing the Vienna Convention-standard speed limit roundel to be placed on a rectangular white background, as they used to use US-style speed limit signs prior to metrification there and doing so allowed them to keep the blanks in use.

[J N Winkler]

I remember in my ordinary differential equations class, we had to do word problems that involved mass in slugs. It took some serious getting used to, since up to that point any situation I had ever encountered that involved the distinction between mass and force had been in physics or other science classes that used entirely SI/metric units. All my math classes always used a mix of customary and metric units, presumably for the benefit of future engineers who would need to be well versed in both. I'd gotten quite comfortable with speeds in feet per second or accelerations in feet per second squared, but the slugs were a new one for me that semester. I haven't used them since.

The Wikipedia article on the slug also mentions the blob (inch version of the slug) and the glug.  It even references the distinction between CGS and MKS unit systems--the former was treated as an embarrassing secret by the time I reached high-school physics, since SI units (which are based on MKS) were by then well-established.