New Jersey Turnpike

[jeffandnicole]

I don't think it's that close.  Measuring on Google Maps from the PA border (the middle of the Delaware River), US 46 is around mile 72.  The exit number is 68.

The SLD agrees with you, its more like a 4 mile difference... 68 would be 72, 69 would be 73, 70 would be 74, 71 would be 75, 72 would be 76, 73 and 74 would be 77.
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/sldiag/pdf/00000095__-.pdf

So I must've been thinking of the mileage from Interchange 6 itself on the mainline, which would've put it about within a mile of those exit numbers.

[ran4sh]

They should at least renumber the sequential exits to get rid of the "A", "X", etc exits

[SignBridge]

Someone said above that the JCT-46 posting on the signs without an exit number is a legacy of the original Turnpike ending there. The end of the Turnpike at Rt. 46 actually was Exit-18 until the later years when the Western Leg and the "missing mile" were built with all the reconfiguration of that area.

Actually, remember that the turnpike is a ticket system, so 18 was wherever the final plaza northbound was. This is the same as the other end where 1 is actually the final plaza southbound. Would have to look thru historic aerials to figure out where 18 was. Right now, it's descendent, 18E, is at 16E.

The original Exit-18 toll plaza was located right at the end of the Turnpike just short of the Route-46 interchange. That changed in 1964 when Exit-18 tolls were relocated to the new Exit-16E toll plaza at its current location.

[famartin]

Someone said above that the JCT-46 posting on the signs without an exit number is a legacy of the original Turnpike ending there. The end of the Turnpike at Rt. 46 actually was Exit-18 until the later years when the Western Leg and the "missing mile" were built with all the reconfiguration of that area.

Actually, remember that the turnpike is a ticket system, so 18 was wherever the final plaza northbound was. This is the same as the other end where 1 is actually the final plaza southbound. Would have to look thru historic aerials to figure out where 18 was. Right now, it's descendent, 18E, is at 16E.

The original Exit-18 toll plaza was located right at the end of the Turnpike just short of the Route-46 interchange. That changed in 1964 when Exit-18 tolls were relocated to the new Exit-16E toll plaza at its current location.

Makes sense, but again, since the exit (to the Turnpike) is actually the toll plaza, the ramps to 46 (and 80) aren't numbered because those are all ramp splits beyond the exit. That's also why there are no numbers posted south of the Exit 1 plaza until you join 295... those are just ramp splits as far as the turnpike is concerned, not exits (because you already exited). 

Getting back to the topic mentioned, this is why the sign says "junction 46"... it was (still is) a turnpike maintained roadway, but outside the ticket system. Only southbound has a number since the NJDOT built everything north of 46, and until 1990 or so, also maintained it.

And finally, as I mentioned before, this is a big mess which makes no sense unless you understand the full history of it. Theoretically, once the turnpike is fully electronic (and exit numbers no longer matter as much), the whole numbering system (including this mess) can be reconfigured and reset to something that makes sense in today's roadway layout.

[roadman65]

The New York Thruway did the same with Exit 15, although with the former ticket system you had two Exit 15s. The actual signed exit for I-287 into New Jersey and the Woodbury Plaza were both Exit 15.

[lstone19]

The New York Thruway did the same with Exit 15, although with the former ticket system you had two Exit 15s. The actual signed exit for I-287 into New Jersey and the Woodbury Plaza were both Exit 15.

I disagree. Thruway Plaza 15 is not the same thing as Exit 15 and Turnpike plazas 18E and 18W are not the same as Exit 18. Thruway Plaza 15 was the toll plaza after which you were committed to proceeding to at least exit 15. No different than any of the other end of ticket section plazas on the the Thruway (B-3, 50, 55, and 61) as well as prior to the rearrangement in the 70s when the Spring Valley was the end of the ticket section and had the designation 14 even though Exit 14A came before Exit 14 (at that time, Exit 15 at Suffern and Exit 16 at Harriman both had normal ramp plazas (exits 14B and 15A did not exist yet). One of the drivers for the change that added the Woodbury plaza between the ramps at 16 was the amount of traffic to/from the south at Harriman that resulted in massive backups at Spring Valley on Sunday evenings as getting that Exit 16 traffic on two fixed tolls sped things up (for a number of years after truncating the ticket system, the Spring Valley plaza was a fixed toll before being mostly eliminated).

In case it's not obvious, the toll arrangement at Woodbury/Harriman is logically the same as the Turnpike at 16E/17/18E (before the Turnpike made 17 a one-way toll) and the Mass Turnpike at Rt. 128 despite different ramp, plaza, and numbering configurations.

[vdeane]

Indeed.  The Thruway doesn't have the same obsession NJTA does and the MassPike historically did with basing exit numbers on toll barriers rather than interchanges.  The ends of the ticket system simply used the number of the next exit beyond the plaza (which the Thruway could do because there always was one; the only state line toll point it ever had was at exit 15, and only because the interchange doesn't serve NY at all, instead directly interfacing with roads in NJ).  Now it's even more pronounced with the former barrier names for the ends of the ticket system being dropped entirely with the AET conversion and all the fixed-price gantries except Harriman, Spring Valley, the GMCB, and Yonkers simply billing as a trip between whatever interchanges they're between.

[lstone19]

Indeed.  The Thruway doesn't have the same obsession NJTA does and the MassPike historically did with basing exit numbers on toll barriers rather than interchanges.  The ends of the ticket system simply used the number of the next exit beyond the plaza (which the Thruway could do because there always was one; the only state line toll point it ever had was at exit 15, and only because the interchange doesn't serve NY at all, instead directly interfacing with roads in NJ).  Now it's even more pronounced with the former barrier names for the ends of the ticket system being dropped entirely with the AET conversion and all the fixed-price gantries except Harriman, Spring Valley, the GMCB, and Yonkers simply billing as a trip between whatever interchanges they're between.

I definitely agree about the Mass Pike and with the old system, the mess at Allston with it being Exit 18 one direction and Exit 20 the other, each side having its own toll rate, with "Exit" 19 used for the through traffic toll between the ramps.

The NJ Turnpike has messed it up in many ways. I go back to before the western spur and back then, it seemed obvious that even though traffic going to the north end paid the 18 toll (no E then) or got the 18 ticker at the 16/18 mega-plaza, U.S. 46 was always considered Exit 18 where the Turnpike ended and all traffic went to/from U.S. 46 either east or west. But when they added the Meadowlands ramps on the western side and called it 19W, that really messed it up. So now they really can't call U.S. 46 Exit 18 since that would cause a sequence error. They really should have called it 17W as although it's north of the 18W plaza, it's not north of what is historically exit 18.

For a completely opposite view, look at the Illinois Tollways where plaza numbers are in a somewhat haphazard order (and not related to the recent addition of exit numbers) and are really for toll accounting use only.

[ilpt4u]

For a completely opposite view, look at the Illinois Tollways where plaza numbers are in a somewhat haphazard order (and not related to the recent addition of exit numbers) and are really for toll accounting use only.

ISTHA originally only issued odd numbers for toll plazas...enough new interchanges and toll points have been added that there are plenty of even numbered toll plazas now in IL

ISTHA was forward-thinking, allowing numbering space for future changes/additions

[lstone19]

For a completely opposite view, look at the Illinois Tollways where plaza numbers are in a somewhat haphazard order (and not related to the recent addition of exit numbers) and are really for toll accounting use only.

ISTHA originally only issued odd numbers for toll plazas...enough new interchanges and toll points have been added that there are plenty of even numbered toll plazas now in IL

ISTHA was forward-thinking, allowing numbering space for future changes/additions

True but somewhere along the way, they have completely lost their way and turned it into a hot mess. It can cost you less to go one exit farther thanks to some of the things they've done. And added so many new toll plazas that the allowed space has long been exhausted.

As for numbers, I-90 from west to east has the plaza numbers 1 (mainline), 4, 2, 5A, 5 (mainline WB), 3 (but not the original 3), 7A, 7 (mainline EB), 6, 8, 9 (mainline), 11, 13, 16B, 14/16 (both at the same interchange, 14 is the EB exit, 16 is the WB exit, and there are no entry tolls), 10, 12, 12A, 15, 18, 18A, 17 (mainline WB), 19 (mainline EB). Odd numbers, except for 3, are the original toll locations from the late 60s after South Beloit to Elgin was converted from ticket to fixed barrier tolls (1 at South Beloit and 9 at Elgin were the original ticket section ends). 3 was the I-39 ramp which later went untolled to relieve congestion and the number was reused for the "screw you Belvidere" exit ramp tolls at Genoa Rd. (when the tollway went to one-way tolls at plazas 5 (Belvedere) and 7 (Hampshire), Belvedere (served by the Genoa Rd. interchange) was promised they wouldn't pay more as they'd pay nothing to get to Belvedere but the double-toll going away from Belvidere. But then the tollway brain-trust noticed people get a free ride to Belvedere so added exit tolls at Genoa Rd. and now people going to and then from Belvidere pay the exit toll to and the double-toll from. This is just one reason I have developed a great dislike for that agency and now more likely shunpike it when my travels take me back there).

[Alps]

If the New Jersey Turnpike's (and untolled 95's) exit numbers are ever renumbered, such as to mileage-based, I think untolled 95's exit numbers should be a continuation of the NJT's exit numbers, which should start at its southern terminus at Interstate 295. If I'm not mistaken, the untolled segment's mileposts are a continuation of the NJT's mileage.

The factor here that I haven't seen brought up yet is that all of the Turnpike Authority's bridges are tagged by milepost. Everything along the mainline is the mile (to the nearest hundredth) as the starting characters. If you change exits to follow I-95, which would be the national standard, are you going to change all your bridges and all your historical identification gets confused? You could have two bridges with the same milepost! So I think the mileposts are never going to change from what they are now, but the exit numbers might, and THAT is gonna be an interesting question - do you follow I-95 with the exit numbers or match the mileposts??

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

For a completely opposite view, look at the Illinois Tollways where plaza numbers are in a somewhat haphazard order (and not related to the recent addition of exit numbers) and are really for toll accounting use only.

ISTHA originally only issued odd numbers for toll plazas...enough new interchanges and toll points have been added that there are plenty of even numbered toll plazas now in IL

ISTHA was forward-thinking, allowing numbering space for future changes/additions

True but somewhere along the way, they have completely lost their way and turned it into a hot mess. It can cost you less to go one exit farther thanks to some of the things they've done. And added so many new toll plazas that the allowed space has long been exhausted.

The NJ turnpike has a similar situation where if you get on at 18E it's more than three times more expensive to take exit 17 instead of going one exit farther to 15X. I actually take advantage of it sometimes if the traffic is light, taking 15X is like an 8 minute detour over 17 but worth saving a few bucks.

[jeffandnicole]

The NJ turnpike has a similar situation where if you get on at 18E it's more than three times more expensive to take exit 17 instead of going one exit farther to 15X. I actually take advantage of it sometimes if the traffic is light, taking 15X is like an 8 minute detour over 17 but worth saving a few bucks.

This is an impossible route. Interchange 17 is a one way barrier toll with a fixed amount. You can't get on at 18E and exit at 17.

A better example is entering at Interchange 7 and bypassing Interchange 6.  Exiting at Interchange 5 or 4 is cheaper than 6.

[lstone19]

The NJ turnpike has a similar situation where if you get on at 18E it's more than three times more expensive to take exit 17 instead of going one exit farther to 15X. I actually take advantage of it sometimes if the traffic is light, taking 15X is like an 8 minute detour over 17 but worth saving a few bucks.

This is an impossible route. Interchange 17 is a one way barrier toll with a fixed amount. You can't get on at 18E and exit at 17.

Only when you focus on the plaza location rather than the exit location. Plaza 18E (and 18W) cover travel to what should be signed as Exit 18 (U.S. 46) as was just being discussed in the last couple of days up thread. Plaza 17 covers travel between exits 17 and unsigned 18. Plaza 18E does not cover use of the road to its physical location but rather the road to the first point beyond where you can exit or enter which is U.S. 46. If plazas only covered travel to their physical location, the 16E and 18E tolls would be the same.

Similarly on the Thruway, you can travel between exits 15 (Suffern) and 16 (Harriman) even though you don't pass through the plaza with the number 15 (Woodbury).

The only thing I'd quibble with is NoGoodNamesAvailable saying 18E rather than just 18. In my mind, the Turnpike has plazas 18E and 18W which both cover travel between unsigned exit 18 and points south while the plaza on the 17 ramp coves travel between 17 and 18 essentially entering and exiting the ticket section at the same location (back to the Thruway, it's the same at Harriman/Woodbury which is logically the same as the Turnpike's 16E/17/18E. Turnpike's plaza 18E is logically "between the ramps" at exits 16E/17 just like Woodbury is between the ramps at Harriman (noting that unlike the Turnpike, the Thruway uses one number at Harriman). There is a direct equivalence of the plazas/gantrys at 16E/17/18E and Harriman/Woodbury:
- Turnpike plaza 18E and Thruway gantry 15-Woodbury cover entry/exit to the ticket section to/from its farthest point (U.S. 46 on the Turnpike and exit 15A on the Thruway)
- Turnpike plaza 16E and Thruway gantry 16 on the ramps to/from the north cover entry/exit to/from the ticket section from the exit where the mainline ticket plaza/gantry is between the ramps
- Turnpike plaza 17 and Thruway gantry 16 on the ramps to/from the south cover travel between that point and the end of the ticket section (U.S. 46 on the Turnpike and exit 15A on the Thruway). With this one, the Turnpike has confused things with one-way tolling at 17 but that's a recent change (for some definition of recent).

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Yes I am honestly not familiar with the precise terminology and in my head I don't even go by the exit numbers. To me it's just "Fort Lee/GWB to 495"  which translates to 18E to 17, although I guess this is technically inaccurate.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Also I hope after the Turnpike goes AET this one-way tolling nonsense goes away. The parkway in particular can be a real mess with tolls not being fair or corresponding to the distance you travel. Some long trips are free and some short trips are expensive, with weird one-way toll scenarios like at I-280 thrown in for good measure. I think they should totally rework the toll system and either add more barriers or convert to full virtual ticket system (possibly overkill).

[roadman65]

Keep in mind originally Exit 17 was full access between Route 3 and the toll road. The original 18 plaza was somewhere south of US 46 and later on in the game the NJTA reconfigured Exit 16 ( later 16E) and 17 into the mega interchange it is today making it one large set up and having 18 patrons surrender their tickets sooner due to there being no exits in between 16E/17.

The toll at 17, being outside the ticket system, was also the same for the previous Exit 6A in Florence that charged a cash toll for PA Turnpike patrons exiting at the former ramp to Cedar Lane that was closed in favor of the current US 130 exit, that also lacks an exit number like US 46.


Also in 4938 forgot to address that traffic to Paterson Plank Road now has to pay the same rate as traveling north to US 46, so that's another unfair toll to add to post 4938.

[roadman65]

You know the NE Extension did something similar when the Keyser Avenue Interchange was built. To avoid a ramp toll there a mainline plaza south of Keyser Avenue was built to charge only the toll for between Exits 37 and 38 as straight through would obtain a ticket south of former Exit 37 to pay further tolls to the rest of the extension. Plus all traffic surpassing Exit 37 NB had paid tolls to that point and going to 38-39 would then pay for the remainder of their trip at Keyser Avenue and ( if continuing on to Clark's Summit) the toll again at Clark's Summit. 

No unfair tolls were accessed and the strategic location of the mainline near Keyser Avenue created the same effect as if Keyser Avenue was given a ticket ramp barrier toll.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Also in 4938 forgot to address that traffic to Paterson Plank Road now has to pay the same rate as traveling north to US 46, so that's another unfair toll to add to post 4938.

I'm sure the turnpike was well aware of what they were doing from the beginning of that toll plaza reconfiguration. They are very sneaky about these kinds of things. They have no
excuse not to fix that under AET.

They caved and now offer a discount for people who live within certain surrounding towns of the exit (to be equivalent to the 16E toll). I could take advantage of it but I would need to buy a NJ EZPass and pay another $12 a year in fees, and I don't think I would take advantage enough to be worth it. Plus NJ requires a credit card replenishment while NY lets you suck the tolls straight from your bank account.

[roadman65]

Well Canada has its Yukon Highway 1 border entry some 25 miles into the Territory from Alaska at Beaver Creek. There are no crossings or other highways connecting in between the US and BeaverCreek so it doesn't matter where the checkpoint is placed just like the NJTA can place the Exit 1 toll anywhere between the existing plaza and Exit 2 as it wouldn't effect the collection process at all.

[jeffandnicole]

Also in 4938 forgot to address that traffic to Paterson Plank Road now has to pay the same rate as traveling north to US 46, so that's another unfair toll to add to post 4938.

I'm sure the turnpike was well aware of what they were doing from the beginning of that toll plaza reconfiguration. They are very sneaky about these kinds of things. They have no
excuse not to fix that under AET.

They caved and now offer a discount for people who live within certain surrounding towns of the exit (to be equivalent to the 16E toll). I could take advantage of it but I would need to buy a NJ EZPass and pay another $12 a year in fees, and I don't think I would take advantage enough to be worth it. Plus NJ requires a credit card replenishment while NY lets you suck the tolls straight from your bank account.

If you have a Visa/Mastercard debit card you could probably use that, although I just use the credit card option so not sure how that would work.

I'm very sure they were trying to sneak the Rt. 3 higher toll in there without much fanfare, but once the politicians got involved not only did the Turnpike have to retreat, they had to basically fork over even more money to set up the system to recognize those in specific zip codes got a unique discount.

[Ned Weasel]

Any clue about what this blank left exit tab (Left Exit 69 going to be signed?) and blank space left of the I-80 shield is going to be for on the Western Spur heading northbound at the I-95/I-80 interchange? These electronic signs were up and active on my 12 Feb 2023 trip to NJIT. As of that date... those tabs don't appear on the Eastern Spur, however, the Eastern Spur got digital APLs as well.

Going back to these sign assemblies on the western spur, I gotta ask about their counterparts on the eastern spur:

Is the VMS portion of the advance guide sign (here: https://goo.gl/maps/dW6JLHPhJvn2MtSu7 ) ever turned on and used?  When I drove that way last week, it was blank.  And then when I got to the split (here: https://goo.gl/maps/CHyXV4oEPqu2TwC98 ), I found it a bit jarring that there was no advance notice as to which lane went there (even though it wasn't a problem for me, because I was in the far-right lane and wanted to get to US 46).

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Going back to these sign assemblies on the western spur, I gotta ask about their counterparts on the eastern spur:

Is the VMS portion of the advance guide sign (here: https://goo.gl/maps/dW6JLHPhJvn2MtSu7 ) ever turned on and used?  When I drove that way last week, it was blank.  And then when I got to the split (here: https://goo.gl/maps/CHyXV4oEPqu2TwC98 ), I found it a bit jarring that there was no advance notice as to which lane went there (even though it wasn't a problem for me, because I was in the far-right lane and wanted to get to US 46).

I would guess the first sign is going to be an APL but they don't want to turn in on right now, because the lanes are shifted during construction and the arrows wouldn't align with the lanes.

Edit: Just saw fwydriver's link which confirms it's an APL. You can also see the misaligned lanes, I don't honestly feel that it's confusing, but maybe for some people it is. Or maybe they think it could encourage someone to drive on the shoulder.

[Ned Weasel]

I would guess the first sign is going to be an APL but they don't want to turn in on right now, because the lanes are shifted during construction and the arrows wouldn't align with the lanes.

Edit: Just saw fwydriver's link which confirms it's an APL. You can also see the misaligned lanes, I don't honestly feel that it's confusing, but maybe for some people it is. Or maybe they think it could encourage someone to drive on the shoulder.

That makes sense.  I kind of feel like it would be helpful to have the VMS say "LEFT LANES || RIGHT LANES" or "KEEP LEFT || KEEP RIGHT" when the lanes aren't aligned for APL.  I suppose it's not causing any major problems, though.

[jeffandnicole]

I would guess the first sign is going to be an APL but they don't want to turn in on right now, because the lanes are shifted during construction and the arrows wouldn't align with the lanes.

Edit: Just saw fwydriver's link which confirms it's an APL. You can also see the misaligned lanes, I don't honestly feel that it's confusing, but maybe for some people it is. Or maybe they think it could encourage someone to drive on the shoulder.

That makes sense.  I kind of feel like it would be helpful to have the VMS say "LEFT LANES || RIGHT LANES" or "KEEP LEFT || KEEP RIGHT" when the lanes aren't aligned for APL.  I suppose it's not causing any major problems, though.

Could be an electrical issue which is keeping the sign blank (which also plays into why they use the hybrid signs and not full VMS signage).