Roads with closely spaced traffic signals...

[tradephoric]

I'm sure everyone can think of a road that is full of closely spaced traffic signals that seem to stop you at every light.  For me it's Jefferson Ave from downtown Detroit to the Grosse Point Park border.  It's a 6.4 mile stretch that has just under 40 traffic signals.  The signals run a fixed time and cycles regardless of detection.  You will notice a few blatant red light runners that treat the red indication as a 4-way stop.

EB PM drive (Heavy direction):

WB PM drive (Light direction):

[Quillz]

Sherman Way through the S.F. Valley

[agentsteel53]

US-441 through Orlando.  126 traffic lights.  I caught precisely 6 greens.

[tradephoric]

I've never been to NYC and watching Cash Cab is the closest i've come to seeing what traffic is like in Manhattan.  Does anyone know the basic strategy the city uses to time their closely spaced lights especially a road like Park Ave that has two way traffic and signals every 250 feet?

[PAHighways]

US 30 between the Parkway East and Greensburg

[jdb1234]

US 280 between the Red Mountain Expressway and Doug Baker Blvd in Birmingham

Honorable Mention:

US 31 between the Red Mountain Expressway and I-65 in Alabaster.

[pianocello]

Any major street in Chicago (I've personally only been on Sheridan Rd., but I've heard about the poor timing on Chicago traffic lights)

US-30 in Indiana doesn't have lights closely spaced (except in Warsaw), but there is an unnecessary amount of them.

[Revive 755]

Any major street in Chicago (I've personally only been on Sheridan Rd., but I've heard about the poor timing on Chicago traffic lights)

More like all of Chicagoland; the only routes that seem to have any sort of coordination are IL 132 between the Tri-State and US 45 (but not EB in the afternoon), and Lake Cook Road between the Tri-State and the IL 53 freeway.

Actually, I think it would be easier to list routes with coordinated closely space traffic signals than those that are not coordinated.

[Duke87]

I've never been to NYC and watching Cash Cab is the closest i've come to seeing what traffic is like in Manhattan.  Does anyone know the basic strategy the city uses to time their closely spaced lights especially a road like Park Ave that has two way traffic and signals every 250 feet?

Well, the one way avenues are nicely timed to have the lights progress up the block at about 30 MPH (the speed limit). And indeed, if traffic permits, you can expect to drive 20, 30, even 40 blocks up 1st Ave without hitting a red light.
Park Avenue and other two-way avenues, naturally, do not and cannot have such convenient light timing. There you will hit a red light every 5-10 blocks because, while the greens do at least seem to cluster together, they can't be made to progress with traffic since traffic goes both ways. I don't know what the precise strategy is. But I do know that NYC traffic signals are controlled by boxes at the site of the signal itself (some of which are mechanical - you can hear parts click and clank in there as the light changes!). They don't have a central computer controlling things. So, whatever coordination there is between signals is all still done the old-fashioned way: by having guys go out and set the up one by one onsite.

[ftballfan]

Broadmoor Ave between 28th St and M-6 in Kentwood has lights that are somewhat synced.

[Chicagosuburban]

IL-59 between IL-56 and US-30 has 30 traffic lights. Also, IL-64 in St. Charles has 19 within a 5.6 mile stretch.

[tradephoric]

I've been having fun looking up all the roads on Google Earth that everyone is mentioning.  If anyone is interested i set up a Google KMZ file comparing the routes with placemarks added at all the intersections along the route:
http://www.mediafire.com/?b262r5cm6j0puky

I think driving Sherman Way would get me cursing the most as there appears to be a lot of major 4 phase intersections along the stretch.  US-280 in Birmingham would be a prime candidate to convert to a superstreet.  Lots of ROW along the stretch and the lights seem to serve mostly businesses/drives (resulting in low cross street through traffic).

[SSOWorld]

ANY central business district is going to have traffic lights at nearly every block.  I know Chicago and Milwaukee do for sure.  I bet most of NYC - especially Manhattan (midtown and lower in particular) have such.

A spot with close-proximity signals that has crap for timing would be WIS 52 at 17th and 18th aves and 18/Stewart Aves in Wausau, WI.  250ft between each signal.

[apeman33]

ANY central business district is going to have traffic lights at nearly every block.  I know Chicago and Milwaukee do for sure.  I bet most of NYC - especially Manhattan (midtown and lower in particular) have such.

A spot with close-proximity signals that has crap for timing would be WIS 52 at 17th and 18th aves and 18/Stewart Aves in Wausau, WI.  250ft between each signal.

Pittsburg, Kan. Traffic lights every block from 3rd to 10th on Broadway but only the one at 4th (K-126) is a modern set up. All the others still only have the lights on posts on the sidewalk. If they hadn't made them bigger a couple of years ago, some of them would be imposssible to see. Also lights on four consecutive blocks if you're on 4th (Walnut-Pine-Broadway-Locust).

Joplin has lights on each block of Main from 2nd to 7th, on each block of 7th from Wall to Virginia, each block of 4th from Wall to Virginia and each block of 2nd from Wall to Pennsylvania. So that's 17 traffic lights in, what, 19 square blocks (Virginia and 2nd don't meet, IIRC)?

[Duke87]

ANY central business district is going to have traffic lights at nearly every block.  I know Chicago and Milwaukee do for sure.  I bet most of NYC - especially Manhattan (midtown and lower in particular) have such.

Manhattan has sometimes been referred to as "the land of no stop signs". This obviously isn't literally true, but they are rare. The grid system is such that three-way intersections exist only as anomalies, and basically any four-way intersection in Manhattan is going to have a signal (although, counterexamples do exist).

The outer boroughs are a different story. Plenty of unsignalized intersections there.

[roadfro]

Well, the one way avenues are nicely timed to have the lights progress up the block at about 30 MPH (the speed limit). And indeed, if traffic permits, you can expect to drive 20, 30, even 40 blocks up 1st Ave without hitting a red light.
Park Avenue and other two-way avenues, naturally, do not and cannot have such convenient light timing. There you will hit a red light every 5-10 blocks because, while the greens do at least seem to cluster together, they can't be made to progress with traffic since traffic goes both ways. I don't know what the precise strategy is. But I do know that NYC traffic signals are controlled by boxes at the site of the signal itself (some of which are mechanical - you can hear parts click and clank in there as the light changes!). They don't have a central computer controlling things. So, whatever coordination there is between signals is all still done the old-fashioned way: by having guys go out and set the up one by one onsite.

A technical note: Most, if not all, jurisdictions have signal controller cabinets at each intersection (or inbetween two intersections, in the case of some diamond interchanges and other closely-spaced intersections where it is desired to operate the two intersections as one unit for efficiency reasons). There are still some older mechanical signal controller units, but more and more controllers are computerized. For newer controllers, you will typically see a large rectangular cabinet which will hold the actual signal controller computer, a conflict monitoring device, and electrical control relays for each signal phase, as well as other items such as a TV monitor (for setting up and viewing video detection feeds, if used), manual override switches, and battery backups (often seen at SPUIs and signals near train crossings. Given the necessary interconnect structure, signal controllers can be on a centralized system where updates can be performed remotely and some communication between adjacent signals can be achieved. However, unless its a small network or a more sophisticated system is installed (like one with live updating and adaption based on real-time volume counts), the operation of each signal is generally done from the onsite controller and not a central computer.

With that said, it IS possible to achieve green progression on two-way streets. Some major cities, such as Las Vegas, do this regularly--in fact, there is regional agency tasked with this and other traffic improvement measures. Achieving decent two-way progression bands is not exactly easy, though. It does become easier when the intersecting streets are evenly spaced, major intersections are a bit more spread out, and you have left turn phases to add in--I believe the last two are not the case in NYC. However, even without those traits, it is possible to do some coordination to get a good progression band in one direction, but that might come at the cost of progression breakdown in the opposing direction.

[agentsteel53]

It does become easier when the intersecting streets are evenly spaced, major intersections are a bit more spread out, and you have left turn phases to add in--I believe the last two are not the case in NYC.

you are correct.  a lot of consecutive streets are given equal "major" importance - and the absence of left-turn protection is so monumental that driving in NYC (especially Manhattan) requires you to learn several behaviors which are technically illegal, the most important being that in order to make a turn, you will have to queue up, and then any queue lined up to turn will proceed through the intersection upon yellow, upon red, upon red, upon red, upon red...

I have made my left turn over 5-6 seconds after the light turned red, because that is the only way I will get through - and if I don't, the driver behind me will ride my bumper and honk!  so long as there is a steady stream of traffic making the turn, it is treated as an implicit "funeral procession", with the lead car validating the turn of all the latter ones.

and yes, this is true for right turn as well.  no, there is no major quantity of "no right turn on red" law - but the sheer amount of pedestrian traffic makes a right turn on green virtually impossible in many places.

if you ever want to have a fun go at life ... try driving Manhattan, on a slush-filled February afternoon, in a stick-shift '89 Escort!

(another rule of NYC driving is that yes, you are allowed to double- and even triple-park.  the law may be the law, but it takes 20 minutes to call a tow truck; so don't be surprised to see delivery vehicles, as well as ordinary passenger cars, parked well into the right of way.  It is, simply, the lay of the land, and therefore your responsibility to maneuver around them.)

[Duke87]

Given the necessary interconnect structure, signal controllers can be on a centralized system where updates can be performed remotely and some communication between adjacent signals can be achieved. However, unless its a small network or a more sophisticated system is installed (like one with live updating and adaption based on real-time volume counts), the operation of each signal is generally done from the onsite controller and not a central computer.

The city of Stamford, CT has its signals all wired together with fiber optics and controlled by a central computer. There are onsite boxes, but those only take over in case of loss of communication with the central computer in City Hall.

It does become easier when the intersecting streets are evenly spaced, major intersections are a bit more spread out, and you have left turn phases to add in--I believe the last two are not the case in NYC.

you are correct.  a lot of consecutive streets are given equal "major" importance - and the absence of left-turn protection is so monumental that driving in NYC (especially Manhattan) requires you to learn several behaviors which are technically illegal, the most important being that in order to make a turn, you will have to queue up, and then any queue lined up to turn will proceed through the intersection upon yellow, upon red, upon red, upon red, upon red...

Turn signals used to be unheard of in Manhattan but they have been popping up in recent years. The thing of it is, most streets in Manhattan are one way... it isn't oncoming traffic that left turn protection is needed from, it's pedestrians. Only in Manhattan will you find dedicated turn signals at an intersection between two one-way streets.
Of course, just because you have a green arrow, doesn't mean you can go... again, pedestrians.

As for proceeding on red, look out... you'll get your picture taken if you do it at the wrong intersection. And unlike in other places that have red light cameras, in New York most of them do not have signs warning of their presence. You just get "within NYC red lights photo enforced" at the city line and from there you're in a minefield.

[Brandon]

^^ So I take it that Manhattan doesn't have the equivalent of the Lincoln Park Pirates. 

[Bryant5493]

As for proceeding on red, look out... you'll get your picture taken if you do it at the wrong intersection. And unlike in other places that have red light cameras, in New York most of them do not have signs warning of their presence. You just get "within NYC red lights photo enforced" at the city line and from there you're in a minefield.

Are the cameras very visible, if you know what to look for?


Be well,

Bryant

[agentsteel53]

As for proceeding on red, look out... you'll get your picture taken if you do it at the wrong intersection.

I think the rule is "don't be the first one to try it" - i.e. the locals seem to know which ones are okay to go through as a queue, and which are not.

[Riverside Frwy]

I don't see why anyone would want to drive in NYC anyway. We're talking about the most transit rich city in America. There is no way in hell I would deal with NYC's tiny streets, subpar freeways, and relentless traffic.

[allniter89]

I don't see why anyone would want to drive in NYC anyway. We're talking about the most transit rich city in America. There is no way in hell I would deal with NYC's tiny streets, subpar freeways, and relentless traffic.

Yeah, dont u wish things were that good in SoCal lol

[vdeane]

I don't see why any normal person would want to drive in NYC anyway. We're talking about the most transit rich city in America. There is no way in hell I would deal with NYC's tiny streets, subpar freeways, and relentless traffic.

Fixed it.  I can see driving in NYC once to clinch highways... can't exactly avoid local streets if you want to clinch I-78, I-478, or I-495.  Not looking forward to if/when I clinch the NYC interstates.

[Quillz]

I don't see why anyone would want to drive in NYC anyway. We're talking about the most transit rich city in America. There is no way in hell I would deal with NYC's tiny streets, subpar freeways, and relentless traffic.

Yeah, dont u wish things were that good in SoCal lol

The geography of L.A. is the reason there can never be such an extensive subway system. Besides, the city was designed around the automobile, unlike the East Coast cities that long ago had other transit networks that didn't require automobiles.