Coronavirus pandemic

[bandit957]

Men charged with violating North Carolina's stay-at-home order while protesting outside abortion clinic

Seven people have been charged with violating stay-at-home orders while protesting Monday outside an abortion clinic in Greensboro, authorities said.

Greensboro police said the seven demonstrators gathered outside A Woman's Choice of Greensboro were asked to leave because they were violating stay-at-home orders prompted by the new coronavirus. Police said the protesters refused.

Jason Oesterreich, Justin Reeder, Isaiah Burner, Andre Gonzalez, Richard Whittier, Leroy Stokes Jr., and John Mcatee were charged with violating Guilford County's stay-at-home order and resisting a public officer.

It wasn't the first time police had broken up a protest outside the clinic during the restrictions. Oesterreich, Reeder, Burner, and Carl Ubinas were charged with similar offenses after a protesting outside the clinic on Saturday, authorities said.

Police said the men were part of a group that contacted police before gathering outside the clinic on Saturday. Police told the leader of the group that their gathering would be considered nonessential and protesters would be given a citation or be arrested.

Authorities have said the order was imposed to stop the spread of the global pandemic.

North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper set new restrictions on business operations and prohibitions of gatherings of more than 10 people on Friday. Police said they will try to get violators to voluntarily comply with disperse requests but violators could ultimately be charged with a class 2 misdemeanor.

It's unclear if any of the men charged have attorneys.

Well, the order does apply only to gatherings of more than 10 - not 7.

But if the protesters were actually blocking access to the clinic, that would be illegal - pandemic or not.

[Max Rockatansky]

Anyone have the actual North Carolina statute that was actually applied to the circumstance above?

[sprjus4]

Anyone have the actual North Carolina statute that was actually applied to the circumstance above?

I don't, but I would love to see it.

While I agree people need to stay at home, social distance, etc., I can't see how this can actually be a chargeable offense.

[sprjus4]

https://twitter.com/virginianpilot/status/1244991006208122881

[Max Rockatansky]

Anyone have the actual North Carolina statute that was actually applied to the circumstance above?

I don't, but I would love to see it.

While I agree people need to stay at home, social distance, etc., I can't see how this can actually be a chargeable offense.

I'm betting they were charged under some sort of "disturbing the peace"  type of law.  Usually those are vague enough to fall open to interpretation for any kind of civil unrest. 

[vdeane]

The whole college town thing is interesting and complicated in ways that I didn't think about when I mentioned COVID-19 upthread as a a potential positive development for the the census.

And indeed, I still think that the benefit having everyone in their homes, in lockdown, sheltering in place, and so forth (and not traveling internationally or to other states), is a good thing for the census and likely outweighs the challenges created by cases like college students and snow birds and whoever else might be in limbo or somewhere else than they normally would be. You would certainly hope that less travel and more people being home would result in more people getting the form, a higher response rate and less follow up on the ground being needed. And just way less confusion in general.
Who knows how it will ultimately end up, but I just can't shake this feeling of elation that coronavirus is a net positive and even perfectly timed development for the 2020 census.

Your mention of snowbirds makes me wonder if Florida is going to get a bit more representation in the House and Electoral College than it otherwise would have.

In any case, the effect with respect to college towns means that the results of the 2020 Census are going to be garbage.  There is a lot of statistical work that is done based off Census data - basically all urban and government planning depends on it - beyond redistricting.  Since the 2020 Census is going to be very, very inaccurate with respect to typical conditions, the results should not be used any more than a state should make long-range plans based off of traffic counts completed right now.

[LM117]

Anyone have the actual North Carolina statute that was actually applied to the circumstance above?

I don't, but I would love to see it.

While I agree people need to stay at home, social distance, etc., I can't see how this can actually be a chargeable offense.

Here ya go. The quoted applies to the governor's executive order.

https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_166A/GS_166A-19.30.html

(d)       Violation. - Any person who violates any provision of a declaration or executive order issued pursuant to this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor in accordance with G.S. 14-288.20A.  (Former G.S. 14-288.15: 1969, c. 869, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 197; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c). Former G.S. 166A-6: 1951, c. 1016, s. 4; 1955, c. 387, s. 4; 1959, c. 284, s. 2; c. 337, s. 4; 1975, c. 734, ss. 11, 14; 1977, c. 848, s. 2; 1979, 2nd Sess., c. 1310, s. 2; 1993, c. 321, s. 181(a); 1995, c. 509, s. 125; 2001-214, s. 3; 2011-145, s. 19.1(g); 2011-183, s. 127(c); 2012-90, s. 1; 2012-12, s. 1(b); 2014-100, s. 14.7(i).)

https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-288.20A.html

§ 14-288.20A.  Violation of emergency prohibitions and restrictions.
Any person who does any of the following is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor:
(1)        Violates any provision of an ordinance or a declaration enacted or declared pursuant to G.S. 166A-19.31.
(2)        Violates any provision of a declaration or executive order issued pursuant to G.S. 166A-19.30.
(3)        Willfully refuses to leave the building as directed in a Governor's order issued pursuant to G.S. 166A-19.78.  (2012-12, s. 1(d).)

And here's a copy of the stay-at-home order:

https://files.nc.gov/governor/documents/files/EO121-Stay-at-Home-Order-3.pdf

[Max Rockatansky]

Reading the order and seeing the statute applied that certainly leaves the door open for people start being questioned about "where they are going and why"  by a police officer under the pretense of "reasonable suspicion." .  Granted I doubt that something like charging people with crimes for things like protests is going to upset many in the general public.  Nonetheless there might be some hidden escalation of how these "stay at home orders"  might be enforced going forward in some states and jurisdictions. 

[LM117]

Reading the order and seeing the statute applied that certainly leaves the door open for people start being questioned about "where they are going and why"  by a police officer under the pretense of "reasonable suspicion." .  Granted I doubt that something like charging people with crimes for things like protests is going to upset many in the general public.  Nonetheless there might be some hidden escalation of how these "stay at home orders"  might be enforced going forward in some states and jurisdictions.

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

[kalvado]

Reading the order and seeing the statute applied that certainly leaves the door open for people start being questioned about "where they are going and why"  by a police officer under the pretense of "reasonable suspicion." .  Granted I doubt that something like charging people with crimes for things like protests is going to upset many in the general public.  Nonetheless there might be some hidden escalation of how these "stay at home orders"  might be enforced going forward in some states and jurisdictions.

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

I hope those cops wear masks...

[bandit957]

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

Great, now we're a "papers please" country.

[oscar]

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

Great, now we're a "papers please" country.

Northern Italy says "join the club".

[Max Rockatansky]

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

Great, now we're a "papers please" country.

It was going to cross that line eventually when the first emergency declarations were made.  It looks at the moment some of the eastern states are going to be more aggressive. 

[RobbieL2415]

Men charged with violating North Carolina's stay-at-home order while protesting outside abortion clinic

Seven people have been charged with violating stay-at-home orders while protesting Monday outside an abortion clinic in Greensboro, authorities said.

Greensboro police said the seven demonstrators gathered outside A Woman's Choice of Greensboro were asked to leave because they were violating stay-at-home orders prompted by the new coronavirus. Police said the protesters refused.

Jason Oesterreich, Justin Reeder, Isaiah Burner, Andre Gonzalez, Richard Whittier, Leroy Stokes Jr., and John Mcatee were charged with violating Guilford County's stay-at-home order and resisting a public officer.

It wasn't the first time police had broken up a protest outside the clinic during the restrictions. Oesterreich, Reeder, Burner, and Carl Ubinas were charged with similar offenses after a protesting outside the clinic on Saturday, authorities said.

Police said the men were part of a group that contacted police before gathering outside the clinic on Saturday. Police told the leader of the group that their gathering would be considered nonessential and protesters would be given a citation or be arrested.

Authorities have said the order was imposed to stop the spread of the global pandemic.

North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper set new restrictions on business operations and prohibitions of gatherings of more than 10 people on Friday. Police said they will try to get violators to voluntarily comply with disperse requests but violators could ultimately be charged with a class 2 misdemeanor.

It's unclear if any of the men charged have attorneys.

Well, the order does apply only to gatherings of more than 10 - not 7.

But if the protesters were actually blocking access to the clinic, that would be illegal - pandemic or not.

It isn't for that.  It's because they weren't engaged in an essential activity.

[webny99]

Your mention of snowbirds makes me wonder if Florida is going to get a bit more representation in the House and Electoral College than it otherwise would have.

I don't know, it's certainly an interesting question. Given the northbound rush of traffic from Florida during the time frame when this all hit, I think it might end up being more or less a wash. No doubt there's some folks that came back early (for what seems to be an early spring) and some that would have come back around now that are sheltering in place in Florida instead.

In any case, the effect with respect to college towns means that the results of the 2020 Census are going to be garbage.  There is a lot of statistical work that is done based off Census data - basically all urban and government planning depends on it - beyond redistricting.  Since the 2020 Census is going to be very, very inaccurate with respect to typical conditions, the results should not be used any more than a state should make long-range plans based off of traffic counts completed right now.

There's got to be some way to reconcile the situation to the point where the legitimacy of the census is kept intact. It's a little different than traffic counts in the sense that people are supposed to be reducing their travel right now, so the counts can just be put off and resume as normal later, while the census is a constitutional requirement with decade-long repercussions.
I'm just not sure how it's going to happen within the framework of the existing census questions: how do you identify who the college students are and where they normally would be on April 1st? Is there some sort of data sharing that could legally be worked out between the colleges and the census bureau directly? I wish I knew.

[ixnay]

Anyone have the actual North Carolina statute that was actually applied to the circumstance above?

I don't, but I would love to see it.

While I agree people need to stay at home, social distance, etc., I can't see how this can actually be a chargeable offense.

I'm betting they were charged under some sort of "disturbing the peace"  type of law.  Usually those are vague enough to fall open to interpretation for any kind of civil unrest.

I imagine they were standing not nearly six feet apart, either, unless the clinic has a *very* wide entrance.

ixnay

[oscar]

It isn't for that.  It's because they weren't engaged in an essential activity.

ISTM that protests are an "essential activity", as an exercise of First Amendment free speech and assembly rights. 

If you're not crazy about this particular anti-abortion protest, what about a picket line (no more than ten people, spaced six feet apart) protesting government failures in doing battle against the epidemic?

I'm betting they were charged under some sort of "disturbing the peace"  type of law.  Usually those are vague enough to fall open to interpretation for any kind of civil unrest.

The U.S. Supreme Court has stepped in against selective enforcement of such laws, or other laws specifically targeting protests near abortion clinics, to squelch anti-abortion protests (IIRC, in a case coming out of Massachusetts).

I imagine they were standing not nearly six feet apart, either, unless the clinic has a *very* wide entrance.

Unless they were on a public sidewalk, walking past the entrance. 

They might need to create a wider gap (at least twelve feet) as needed to let someone safely enter or exit the clinic. Protesters can still try to guilt-trip clinic clients and staff, but not block access.

[noelbotevera]

My county is now under shelter-in-place orders until April 30th. The neighboring county, Fulton, isn't.

Okay, sure, that makes sense.

(context: Franklin County and Chambersburg are basically located in a valley, and Franklin County is basically the most populous county in this area thus reporting the most cases. Fulton County is beyond a mountain and is far more rural so they're reporting less cases. Naturally I'd expect PA to err on the side of caution and declare Fulton to shelter-in-place but...they didn't.)

[Bruce]

Considering the strain on hospitals, this would be the time to not close abortion clinics (either by state orders or protests preventing access). Texas, Alabama, and Ohio have tried to close them down as part of shelter-in-place, but thankfully they were denied by federal judges (but Texas has an active appeal).

[vdeane]

Reading the order and seeing the statute applied that certainly leaves the door open for people start being questioned about "where they are going and why"  by a police officer under the pretense of "reasonable suspicion." .  Granted I doubt that something like charging people with crimes for things like protests is going to upset many in the general public.  Nonetheless there might be some hidden escalation of how these "stay at home orders"  might be enforced going forward in some states and jurisdictions.

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

Yikes.  I hope NY never goes that far.  I absolutely, positively, can't stand the idea of having to justify myself to authority figures.  It's the reason I've always hated crossing the border.

[oscar]

A friend of mine works at Franklin Baking in Goldsboro, NC and he said that the cops were enforcing that order pretty heavily. He already got stopped once, but once he showed them a paper he got from his job, they let him go. Can't speak for other areas of NC, though.

Yikes.  I hope NY never goes that far.  I absolutely, positively, can't stand the idea of having to justify myself to authority figures.  It's the reason I've always hated crossing the border.

Ditto. I hope NC law enforcement comes to its senses, and its VA (or DC or MD) counterparts don't follow that bad example. People going to and from work can carry and show their papers. But I can't possibly document my need for non-work local travel, to shop for groceries, or a restaurant to grab some breakfast at its drive-thru, or the post office to pick up mail for a friend who's housebound after leg surgery, or to my friend's house to check in on him and deliver his mail, or my storage unit to retrieve and update an external hard drive as part of replacing my laptop, or to a hardware store to buy a voltmeter, or to an auto parts store if my car needs a new battery, or my dentist next week if that appointment doesn't get delayed again.

Having to get and show papers just for leaving your house, like in at least parts of Italy, is more oppressive than is warranted in our circumstances.

[kphoger]

The Census is not going to be moved, end of discussion.

Rest in peace, poor census takers...

We had a census taker come to our house a couple of months ago.  She came in, asked a whole lot of questions, filled our her forms, all of that jazz.  Now we've been getting reminders in the mail that we're required by law to fill out a census survey.  So what the heck was the census taker doing all that time, then??  Stupid bureaucracy...

[kphoger]

Or maybe it's like the common cold (which is a coronavirus, after all)

Most colds are not caused by a coronavirus.

[jeffandnicole]

The Census is not going to be moved, end of discussion.

Rest in peace, poor census takers...

We had a census taker come to our house a couple of months ago.  She came in, asked a whole lot of questions, filled our her forms, all of that jazz.  Now we've been getting reminders in the mail that we're required by law to fill out a census survey.  So what the heck was the census taker doing all that time, then??  Stupid bureaucracy...

Sure that was a census taker?

Usually the first step in the census is people self-submitting their info online or via the phone, and that's going on now. Most field workers wouldn't hit the streets till summer of 2020.

Bad enough you let them in the house. Hopefully you didnt give too much personal information.

[kalvado]

The Census is not going to be moved, end of discussion.

Rest in peace, poor census takers...

We had a census taker come to our house a couple of months ago.  She came in, asked a whole lot of questions, filled our her forms, all of that jazz.  Now we've been getting reminders in the mail that we're required by law to fill out a census survey.  So what the heck was the census taker doing all that time, then??  Stupid bureaucracy...

I don't believe you could get a census takers couple of months ago until you live in rural Alaska. Otherwise no door to door until at least this week we planned