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Author Topic: New York  (Read 1028919 times)

seicer

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Re: New York
« Reply #5400 on: July 17, 2021, 09:13:01 AM »

In many cases, the "old" road has more traffic :)

crispy93

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Re: New York
« Reply #5401 on: July 18, 2021, 12:22:06 PM »

Are there any more sequential-to-mileage-based exit numbering conversions in the near future? I know the Thruway will be converted the-day-after-never, but what about all the other roads in New York State?

I haven't heard anything. I still have to drive down the Hutch and see how the signs are progressing. Looks like they mostly did 1:1 replacements, meaning there are still different styles of exit signs (eg, some have the street name, horizontal bar, control city, whereas others don't have the horizontal bar).

684 would be an easy conversion, but I don't know if the signs are reaching end-of-life. The signs at I-84 are definitely newish. Personally, I'd love to see the Palisades Parkway get new signs and the parkway is long enough that mile-based exits would work decently.
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crispy93

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Re: New York
« Reply #5402 on: July 18, 2021, 12:31:36 PM »

Westchester DPW replaced the signs on the Bronx River Parkway at the Cross-County, so these abominations are gone:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9175149,-73.8477215,3a,75y,35.44h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHslUJH7zOG5PLVxjt530w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9228893,-73.8451635,3a,75y,42.38h,88.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb2EU112NcLM1r0MaLdCgpw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

And these have been replaced, too:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9370963,-73.8369638,3a,39.4y,326.49h,90.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQNhtM68nVSi_0wA_jPTvgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

^^ That one now has just Sprain Brook Pkwy (no reference to the Taconic/Albany) with down arrows over all three lanes (never understood why the right lane has a solid white line). I guess the Sprain sign could technically have a Left Exit # like it does when you're on the southbound Taconic, but it always looked weird to me.
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machias

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Re: New York
« Reply #5403 on: July 18, 2021, 04:51:26 PM »

Westchester DPW replaced the signs on the Bronx River Parkway at the Cross-County, so these abominations are gone:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9175149,-73.8477215,3a,75y,35.44h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHslUJH7zOG5PLVxjt530w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9228893,-73.8451635,3a,75y,42.38h,88.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb2EU112NcLM1r0MaLdCgpw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


I actually like the second sign with the exit numbers on the bottom row. That was the NYSDPW standard at one time.
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noelbotevera

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Re: New York
« Reply #5404 on: July 18, 2021, 10:35:32 PM »

Any reason why I-390 has NY 245 reference markers near Dansville? It ends nowhere near the interstate and I'm not sure why it would use I-390 if it ever ended at a major route like NY 36.
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Sam

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Re: New York
« Reply #5405 on: July 18, 2021, 10:55:14 PM »

Any reason why I-390 has NY 245 reference markers near Dansville? It ends nowhere near the interstate and I'm not sure why it would use I-390 if it ever ended at a major route like NY 36.
It was once part of NY 245 before it became I-390. New York often doesn’t change the reference route number even if the touring route number changes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_245
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GenExpwy

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Re: New York
« Reply #5406 on: July 19, 2021, 05:03:39 AM »

Any reason why I-390 has NY 245 reference markers near Dansville? It ends nowhere near the interstate and I'm not sure why it would use I-390 if it ever ended at a major route like NY 36.
It was once part of NY 245 before it became I-390. New York often doesn’t change the reference route number even if the touring route number changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_245

Region 4 changed all the reference markers on I-390 in Livingston County to 390I in the late 1970s as the sections north of Dansville were starting to open up. The 245  reference markers are in Steuben County (Region 6).

NY 245 overlapped NY 21 between Naples and Wayland, (originally) NY 63 to Dansville, then west along current NY 436 through Nunda and Portageville. When the first section of the Genesee Expressway opened between Wayland and Dansville, 245 was moved onto it, exiting at what is now Exit 4, and continued west. The expressway between Exit 4 and the Exit 5 area carried NY 36, with  36  reference markers.
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noelbotevera

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Re: New York
« Reply #5407 on: July 21, 2021, 01:22:18 PM »

Any reason why I-390 has NY 245 reference markers near Dansville? It ends nowhere near the interstate and I'm not sure why it would use I-390 if it ever ended at a major route like NY 36.
It was once part of NY 245 before it became I-390. New York often doesn’t change the reference route number even if the touring route number changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_245

Region 4 changed all the reference markers on I-390 in Livingston County to 390I in the late 1970s as the sections north of Dansville were starting to open up. The 245 reference markers are in Steuben County (Region 6).

NY 245 overlapped NY 21 between Naples and Wayland, (originally) NY 63 to Dansville, then west along current NY 436 through Nunda and Portageville. When the first section of the Genesee Expressway opened between Wayland and Dansville, 245 was moved onto it, exiting at what is now Exit 4, and continued west. The expressway between Exit 4 and the Exit 5 area carried NY 36, with 36 reference markers.
The history adds up - it looks like NY 36 once bypassed Dansville but was returned to downtown when I-390 was designated (1970-72 I guess, according to Wikipedia). Was Region 6 simply too lazy to change the markers from 245 to 390I, considering Region 4 did?

Also, it seems confusing that NYSDOT would still inventory this as NY 245 when the rest of the road is I-390 (or 390I). There's no real reason to do so, and I don't think anyone at NYSDOT remembers when or why it was NY 245.
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crispy93

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Re: New York
« Reply #5408 on: July 21, 2021, 01:35:49 PM »

I know NY 82 and US 44 were re-configured near Millbrook (Dutchess County) and 82 has 44's reference markers. I remember reading in some DOT manual that for crash stats and history/projects, it makes sense to keep the old ones.

Anyway, I went over the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge last weekend and it's AET now. The tollbooths are being dismantled.
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Mergingtraffic

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Re: New York
« Reply #5409 on: July 21, 2021, 02:47:38 PM »

Westchester DPW replaced the signs on the Bronx River Parkway at the Cross-County, so these abominations are gone:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9175149,-73.8477215,3a,75y,35.44h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHslUJH7zOG5PLVxjt530w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9228893,-73.8451635,3a,75y,42.38h,88.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb2EU112NcLM1r0MaLdCgpw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

And these have been replaced, too:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9370963,-73.8369638,3a,39.4y,326.49h,90.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQNhtM68nVSi_0wA_jPTvgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

^^ That one now has just Sprain Brook Pkwy (no reference to the Taconic/Albany) with down arrows over all three lanes (never understood why the right lane has a solid white line). I guess the Sprain sign could technically have a Left Exit # like it does when you're on the southbound Taconic, but it always looked weird to me.

This sign is also owned by the County of Westchester.  It says it on the sign.  So will this be gone too soon? It wasn't replaced with the other signs in the area.  Btw, are the I-684 button copy signs nearby also Westchester owned?
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machias

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Re: New York
« Reply #5410 on: July 21, 2021, 03:40:03 PM »

Any reason why I-390 has NY 245 reference markers near Dansville? It ends nowhere near the interstate and I'm not sure why it would use I-390 if it ever ended at a major route like NY 36.
It was once part of NY 245 before it became I-390. New York often doesn’t change the reference route number even if the touring route number changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_245

Region 4 changed all the reference markers on I-390 in Livingston County to 390I in the late 1970s as the sections north of Dansville were starting to open up. The 245 reference markers are in Steuben County (Region 6).

NY 245 overlapped NY 21 between Naples and Wayland, (originally) NY 63 to Dansville, then west along current NY 436 through Nunda and Portageville. When the first section of the Genesee Expressway opened between Wayland and Dansville, 245 was moved onto it, exiting at what is now Exit 4, and continued west. The expressway between Exit 4 and the Exit 5 area carried NY 36, with 36 reference markers.
The history adds up - it looks like NY 36 once bypassed Dansville but was returned to downtown when I-390 was designated (1970-72 I guess, according to Wikipedia). Was Region 6 simply too lazy to change the markers from 245 to 390I, considering Region 4 did?

Also, it seems confusing that NYSDOT would still inventory this as NY 245 when the rest of the road is I-390 (or 390I). There's no real reason to do so, and I don't think anyone at NYSDOT remembers when or why it was NY 245.

At one time, it was NYSDOT policy to leave reference markers as installed, and not update with new route numbers. This has varied between the regions over the years. I can think of plenty of places where the reference marker doesn't match the signed route anymore in Regions 2 and 5, not sure about 4. Region 3 seems to update their reference markers, not sure about Region 9.
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Roadgeek Adam

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Re: New York
« Reply #5411 on: July 21, 2021, 05:20:57 PM »

R5 is replace as is. ex-NY 33B just got its signs redone, still 33B reference markers, despite the route not existing since 7/1/74.
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cl94

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Re: New York
« Reply #5412 on: July 21, 2021, 06:47:15 PM »

R5 is replace as is.

Sometimes. 263 was re-mileposted in 2015.
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baugh17

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Re: New York
« Reply #5413 on: July 22, 2021, 12:57:13 AM »

At one time, it was NYSDOT policy to leave reference markers as installed, and not update with new route numbers. This has varied between the regions over the years. I can think of plenty of places where the reference marker doesn't match the signed route anymore in Regions 2 and 5, not sure about 4. Region 3 seems to update their reference markers, not sure about Region 9.

R4 will generally update their markers though I can think of a couple of one offs where that isn't/wasn't the case.
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Rothman

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Re: New York
« Reply #5414 on: July 22, 2021, 08:12:54 AM »

R3 still has markers up reflecting old designations.
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machias

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Re: New York
« Reply #5415 on: July 22, 2021, 08:50:39 AM »

R3 still has markers up reflecting old designations.

Interesting. I was basing my observation on former NY 57, which on the 370 and 481 parts no longer has 57 reference markers.
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astralentity

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Re: New York
« Reply #5416 on: July 22, 2021, 08:59:12 AM »

Similar to how R9 has the old 7 markers on I-88 between the 7 arterial and exit 4.
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Rothman

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Re: New York
« Reply #5417 on: July 22, 2021, 09:01:50 AM »



R3 still has markers up reflecting old designations.

Interesting. I was basing my observation on former NY 57, which on the 370 and 481 parts no longer has 57 reference markers.

Well, the keyword there is "former."  NYSDOT isn't going to keep RMs on a county route.

 An example of what I am talking about are NY 90 RMs being still in place on current NY 392.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: New York
« Reply #5418 on: July 22, 2021, 09:43:05 AM »

IDK, perhaps the Niagra SP/RMSP situation would be different if the LOSP were completed out to Porter.
It also makes no sense to me to have the NSP parallel to NY 104 from the Center St. exit to the split at Devil's Hole State Park. Just get rid of it and add a median to NY 104 and raise the speed limit to 65.
There's plenty of thru E-W streets connecting to I-190 to handle tourist traffic.
I would honestly demolish the whole thing south of I-190.
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machias

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Re: New York
« Reply #5419 on: July 22, 2021, 03:21:49 PM »



R3 still has markers up reflecting old designations.

Interesting. I was basing my observation on former NY 57, which on the 370 and 481 parts no longer has 57 reference markers.

Well, the keyword there is "former."  NYSDOT isn't going to keep RMs on a county route.

 An example of what I am talking about are NY 90 RMs being still in place on current NY 392.

What I was trying to convey was...

On NY 291 in Region 2, the part which used to be NY 12C still (for the most part) say 12C, there's a couple stragglers that were changed.
On NY 430 in Region 5, the part which used to be NY 17J still say 17J.

On NY 370 in Region 3, the part which used to be NY 57, the RMs were all changed to 370.
On NY 481 in Region 3, the part which used to be NY 57, the were all changed to 481.
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Rothman

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Re: New York
« Reply #5420 on: July 22, 2021, 04:46:06 PM »



R3 still has markers up reflecting old designations.

Interesting. I was basing my observation on former NY 57, which on the 370 and 481 parts no longer has 57 reference markers.

Well, the keyword there is "former."  NYSDOT isn't going to keep RMs on a county route.

 An example of what I am talking about are NY 90 RMs being still in place on current NY 392.

What I was trying to convey was...

On NY 291 in Region 2, the part which used to be NY 12C still (for the most part) say 12C, there's a couple stragglers that were changed.
On NY 430 in Region 5, the part which used to be NY 17J still say 17J.

On NY 370 in Region 3, the part which used to be NY 57, the RMs were all changed to 370.
On NY 481 in Region 3, the part which used to be NY 57, the were all changed to 481.
Well...yeah.  In R3, someone didn't like the gap left over.
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vdeane

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Re: New York
« Reply #5421 on: July 22, 2021, 09:44:59 PM »

IDK, perhaps the Niagra SP/RMSP situation would be different if the LOSP were completed out to Porter.
It also makes no sense to me to have the NSP parallel to NY 104 from the Center St. exit to the split at Devil's Hole State Park. Just get rid of it and add a median to NY 104 and raise the speed limit to 65.
There's plenty of thru E-W streets connecting to I-190 to handle tourist traffic.
I would honestly demolish the whole thing south of I-190.
I could see keeping I-190 to NY 104 if it were modified to have the NSP southbound feed into the I-190 interchange.  That said, given the AADT, it might not be worth having north of I-190 either.  It would probably be cheaper to just have the state take over Church Street/Blairville Road and give that a number than to do significant rehabilitation/reconstruction work on the NSP.

I'm not sure why it still exists south of I-190 at all given the recent removal efforts.  There's no reason to have the I-190 to Devil's Hole section and the Devil's Hole to Findlay Drive section could just become an extension of Whirlpool Street.
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Michael

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Re: New York
« Reply #5422 on: July 24, 2021, 09:06:06 PM »

I stumbled on a couple cool clips on YouTube of NY 17 in Corning before the Corning Bypass was built:

This one is part of a series along NY 17, and starts at I-390 and heads eastbound to the east side of Elmira, then jumps to the Newburgh-Beacon bridge.  A copy of Uglybridges from the Internet Archive says the bridge on the east side of Corning was reconstructed in 1990, so since construction is visible at 4:26, I'm guessing this clip is from that year.

This clip shows construction of the Corning Bypass in 1993.  It's slightly confusing since the High Street it references is the one in Riverside (NY 352), but the video starts on NY 414 near Corning's High Street.
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Re: New York
« Reply #5423 on: July 25, 2021, 01:16:14 PM »

Also, it seems confusing that NYSDOT would still inventory this as NY 245 when the rest of the road is I-390 (or 390I). There's no real reason to do so, and I don't think anyone at NYSDOT remembers when or why it was NY 245.

They don't, it's inventoried as I-390. While touring route numbers are used as an element of the reference marker legend when it's devised, the markers themselves do not establish what the route number is. Rather, they serve to uniquely identify a point along the state highway system, so as long as there's no other identical marker somewhere, then there's no reason to change the legend. (If you did, then you'd have two different marker legends identifying the same unique location, which is contrary to the intent.)
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noelbotevera

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Re: New York
« Reply #5424 on: July 26, 2021, 10:04:22 PM »

Also, it seems confusing that NYSDOT would still inventory this as NY 245 when the rest of the road is I-390 (or 390I). There's no real reason to do so, and I don't think anyone at NYSDOT remembers when or why it was NY 245.

They don't, it's inventoried as I-390. While touring route numbers are used as an element of the reference marker legend when it's devised, the markers themselves do not establish what the route number is. Rather, they serve to uniquely identify a point along the state highway system, so as long as there's no other identical marker somewhere, then there's no reason to change the legend. (If you did, then you'd have two different marker legends identifying the same unique location, which is contrary to the intent.)
I don't quite understand what you're saying. As stated earlier, the markers are used for crash statistics, projects, and identification...but are not meant to be used for inventory purposes. Then what's the point in having them? If the road (or rather a specific point) is identified as its old number - with this number also being used for stats and projects - but inventoried as another number, doesn't that lead to confusion?

For comparison, PennDOT's little white signs (the Location Reference System) are used as both identifying markers and an inventory (purpose stated here) but sometimes don't reflect the posted route number. One example is PA 61 near Centralia.

I'm guessing that the NYSDOT inventory and reference markers are two entirely separate ways of identifying roads - one (the inventory) probably stored in a digital database in Albany for the IT people (and probably referenced when compiling AADT data), the other (markers) for the construction crews (who need physical signs that detail the scope of a project).

There's also a case of two reference markers together - I usually don't see both routes reflected on a multiplex, and I'm not sure why this is a special case (NY 42/NY 52 have a very short multiplex, but that's about it).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 10:30:02 PM by noelbotevera »
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