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Author Topic: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program  (Read 31558 times)

cpzilliacus

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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #326 on: June 30, 2021, 12:14:30 AM »

WTOP Radio: Legislators accuse MDOT of withholding highway-financing study

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Two Montgomery County lawmakers suggested on Tuesday that an analysis of the state’s controversial Capital Beltway/I-270 proposal is being withheld by top transportation officials in order to make it harder to stop the project.

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And a legislative budget analyst said that Republican Gov. Lawrence J. Hogan’s oft-repeated claim — that the state lacks the resources to widen the two highways and replace the American Legion Bridge — has never been put to the test.

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Their comments were made during a hearing held by two General Assembly subcommittees that oversee transportation policy.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #327 on: July 05, 2021, 03:04:03 AM »

Washington Post opinion column: Maryland and Virginia diverge when it comes to laying asphalt to widen highways

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Northern Virginia has widened its main highways since 2012 by adding 53 miles of privately operated tolled express lanes. It is currently constructing 33 miles more. Across the river, Maryland can’t agree to build an inch.

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Does that mean the Old Dominion has a more pragmatic approach, friendly to both business and drivers? Or is the Free State just more environmentally responsible and wary of letting private companies run public services?

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The answer is both, and the contrast highlights a deep difference in the political climates on opposite banks of the Potomac.

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It’s hard to overstate the divergence between Virginia and Maryland regarding the laying of asphalt in recent years.
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cpzilliacus

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Plutonic Panda

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kernals12

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BrianP

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #331 on: July 21, 2021, 04:00:19 PM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/07/21/maryland-toll-lanes-vote/&ved=2ahUKEwjkq9z37_TxAhUdEFkFHQ69AB0QxfQBMAB6BAgDEAs&usg=AOvVaw2tCiLA9Xdu3YneapX7reIi

The widening is back on. The anti-car astroturfers lose.
I don't think they lost.  They got a transit concession for the vote to pass.  MoCo has had the corridor city transitway in it's plans for at least 10 years.  The ideas has evolved over the years.  But it has always lacked funding.  So they got something they wanted too.  Which is probably how they figured they could get it to play out to get what they wanted.

Would they have preferred no highway widening?  Sure.  But it doesn't look like all of them were willing to die on that mountain.  This way both sides are a bit happy.  You know what they say: you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. So some happiness across the board is not shabby.

The problem is what transit concessions will be needed when doing the next parts?: I-270 north of I-370 and I-495 east of I-270.  There may not be a concession large enough for the latter.
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mrsman

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #332 on: July 21, 2021, 06:23:19 PM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/07/21/maryland-toll-lanes-vote/&ved=2ahUKEwjkq9z37_TxAhUdEFkFHQ69AB0QxfQBMAB6BAgDEAs&usg=AOvVaw2tCiLA9Xdu3YneapX7reIi

The widening is back on. The anti-car astroturfers lose.
I don't think they lost.  They got a transit concession for the vote to pass.  MoCo has had the corridor city transitway in it's plans for at least 10 years.  The ideas has evolved over the years.  But it has always lacked funding.  So they got something they wanted too.  Which is probably how they figured they could get it to play out to get what they wanted.

Would they have preferred no highway widening?  Sure.  But it doesn't look like all of them were willing to die on that mountain.  This way both sides are a bit happy.  You know what they say: you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. So some happiness across the board is not shabby.

The problem is what transit concessions will be needed when doing the next parts?: I-270 north of I-370 and I-495 east of I-270.  There may not be a concession large enough for the latter.

I really think the 495 is off the table because there are too many homes that would need to be demolished.  There are far fewer obstacles on the 270, so if you play politics, you can get the widening that would be very helpful.
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ARMOURERERIC

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #333 on: July 21, 2021, 07:43:58 PM »

I can't read the article, but I lived there 1985-1991 and "red line to Germantown" was the buzz word phrase.  How does this proposal compare.
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kernals12

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #334 on: July 21, 2021, 08:11:14 PM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/07/21/maryland-toll-lanes-vote/&ved=2ahUKEwjkq9z37_TxAhUdEFkFHQ69AB0QxfQBMAB6BAgDEAs&usg=AOvVaw2tCiLA9Xdu3YneapX7reIi

The widening is back on. The anti-car astroturfers lose.
I don't think they lost.  They got a transit concession for the vote to pass.  MoCo has had the corridor city transitway in it's plans for at least 10 years.  The ideas has evolved over the years.  But it has always lacked funding.  So they got something they wanted too.  Which is probably how they figured they could get it to play out to get what they wanted.

Would they have preferred no highway widening?  Sure.  But it doesn't look like all of them were willing to die on that mountain.  This way both sides are a bit happy.  You know what they say: you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. So some happiness across the board is not shabby.

The problem is what transit concessions will be needed when doing the next parts?: I-270 north of I-370 and I-495 east of I-270.  There may not be a concession large enough for the latter.

I really think the 495 is off the table because there are too many homes that would need to be demolished.  There are far fewer obstacles on the 270, so if you play politics, you can get the widening that would be very helpful.

You could put the HOT Lanes on a second deck.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #335 on: July 21, 2021, 08:29:26 PM »

What are "the 495" and "the 270"?

You could put the HOT Lanes on a second deck.

About as much chance of that as there is a chance of $100 bills falling out of your arse the next time you take a crap.
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kernals12

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #336 on: July 21, 2021, 09:20:37 PM »

What are "the 495" and "the 270"?

You could put the HOT Lanes on a second deck.

About as much chance of that as there is a chance of $100 bills falling out of your arse the next time you take a crap.


I'm just saying it's an option. Honestly though I think cooperative adaptive cruise control will eliminate all congestion in the near future and then they can turn the existing express lanes into bike lanes.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #337 on: July 21, 2021, 09:43:35 PM »

What are "the 495" and "the 270"?

You could put the HOT Lanes on a second deck.

About as much chance of that as there is a chance of $100 bills falling out of your arse the next time you take a crap.
Then the homes need to go. This ridiculous mentality that always ends in the only option being is no build needs to stop. Either the homes are demoed or an elevated deck is built. Multiple options have been given.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #338 on: July 21, 2021, 10:30:00 PM »

What are "the 495" and "the 270"?

You could put the HOT Lanes on a second deck.

About as much chance of that as there is a chance of $100 bills falling out of your arse the next time you take a crap.


I'm just saying it's an option. Honestly though I think cooperative adaptive cruise control will eliminate all congestion in the near future and then they can turn the existing express lanes into bike lanes.

OK, now it’s clear you’re not serious. I’m glad you finally admitted that.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

famartin

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #339 on: July 21, 2021, 10:32:34 PM »

What are "the 495" and "the 270"?

You could put the HOT Lanes on a second deck.

About as much chance of that as there is a chance of $100 bills falling out of your arse the next time you take a crap.
Then the homes need to go. This ridiculous mentality that always ends in the only option being is no build needs to stop. Either the homes are demoed or an elevated deck is built. Multiple options have been given.

I suppose some people have sentimentality if they’ve lived some place a long time, but I suspect it’s more the objections of everyone else left behind who would now be that much closer to the highway. Those who actually would be demoed can’t really enjoy living next to it that much, can they? Seems like a good deal for them.
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BrianP

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #340 on: July 22, 2021, 02:46:47 PM »

I can't read the article, but I lived there 1985-1991 and "red line to Germantown" was the buzz word phrase.  How does this proposal compare.
I'm missing about a ten year gap after that since I've only been here for 20 years.  So I can't compare to that.  But the CCT started as light rail then changed to BRT.

https://www.cctmaryland.com/index.php/about-the-project/project-overview
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ARMOURERERIC

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #341 on: July 22, 2021, 04:32:49 PM »

Basically, when I was around, the map pitched was a red line extension of Washington Grove, Doesn't own Gaithersburg, Flake Forest Mall, NIST and then became detailess after that.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #342 on: July 22, 2021, 10:18:59 PM »

I really think the 495 is off the table because there are too many homes that would need to be demolished.  There are far fewer obstacles on the 270, so if you play politics, you can get the widening that would be very helpful.

It is true that the right-of-way is constrained across most of Montgomery County (originally I-495 in Maryland was six lanes from the Potomac River to the Potomac River (some early sections, including between MD-193 (Exit 29) and MD-97 (Exit 31) were opened as four lanes but widened to six by the time that the entire road was opened in 1964).

But as I think I have mentioned here before - the parkland along the way and not the homes was and is the bigger impediment to widening.  Between MD-650 (Exit 28) and I-270 (Exit 35), the I-495 corridor crosses several parks that belong to the bicounty Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission (anyplace else these would be county parks).  They are:  Northwest Branch stream valley (crossed by a high and massive steel arch that is not visible to I-495 drivers);  Sligo Creek stream valley (crossed by a modest concrete culvert where the freeway crosses the stream valley on a large filled-in dirt embankment) and Rock Creek stream valley (crossed near the Mormon Temple over the creek and adjacent Stoneybrook Drive).  From Stoneybrook Drive almost to MD-355 (Exit 34), I-495 runs hard by the bed of the creek.  In addition to having the same ownership, all of these parks have something else in common - the purchase of the lands were financed in whole or in part by the federal Capper-Cramton Act (originally passed 1930 and amended later).  The significance of Capper-Cramton cannot be understated - long before the USDOT Act was passed in 1966 (with its Section 4(f) that limited taking of parkland for federally-financed transportation projects), lands purchased under Capper-Cramton had protection in federal law against conversion to non-park uses. 

in the late 1950's, the Maryland State Roads Commission was able to take enough parkland to build the six-lane I-495 but not really more, and even when I-495 was widened to 8 lanes (between I-295 near the Wilson Bridge and MD-97 in the early 1970's and not for many more years between MD-97 and the American Legion Bridge in the late 1980's and early 1990's), the state was not able to take much additional right-of-way from the Capper-Cramton parks.  I suspect that if MDOT today were to try and take enough land for four at-grade managed lanes, it would be challenged in court, and the state would lose - because of Capper-Cramton and Section 4(f).

So if there were to be managed lanes in the "top" part of I-495, they would presumably need to go up to an elevated structure (perhaps similar to I-110 (Harbor Freeway) in Los Angeles County, California) or down to some sort of bored tunnel.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 10:23:57 PM by cpzilliacus »
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