Exit numbers on tabs in California

[Lytton]

What I'm trying to say is. That, along Route 44 in Redding, there are a few exits that have exit numbers posted on top right tabs, rather than being inside the exit sign. The exits are Exit 3 to 5. This is a rare find, as most exits in California have the exit numbers inside.

Is there more than I just saw?

[agentsteel53]

What I'm trying to say is. That, along Route 44 in Redding, there are a few exits that have exit numbers posted on top right tabs, rather than being inside the exit sign. The exits are Exit 3 to 5. This is a rare find, as most exits in California have the exit numbers inside.

Is there more than I just saw?

they're around - they seem not to be confined to one particular district.  I can't think of any examples offhand, but I think US-101 just south of San Francisco has several.

[myosh_tino]

What I'm trying to say is. That, along Route 44 in Redding, there are a few exits that have exit numbers posted on top right tabs, rather than being inside the exit sign. The exits are Exit 3 to 5. This is a rare find, as most exits in California have the exit numbers inside.

Is there more than I just saw?

Check out southbound I-5 in Tehema County.  For the most part, external exit tabs are used on roadside signs and not on overhead signs.  There are also a few random external exit tabbed signs scattered across the state too.

I can't think of any examples offhand, but I think US-101 just south of San Francisco has several.

Are you sure?  As someone who drives US 101 from time-to-time, I don't recall seeing any external exit tabs used on US 101's exit signs.

[agentsteel53]

I am thinking "virtual external", where the sign is a green rectangle large enough to house two rectangular outlines: the main sign, and then a tab at upper right.  next to the tab is a big green empty space.

physical external is really quite rare.

[Lytton]

I am thinking "virtual external", where the sign is a green rectangle large enough to house two rectangular outlines: the main sign, and then a tab at upper right.  next to the tab is a big green empty space.

physical external is really quite rare.

I was talking about the physical external.

Well...guess what? I saw a few on I-5 in South Los Angeles County, and a few on US 101 in Los Angeles. Maybe, they aren't quite rare?

[vdeane]

They might be from the 70s.

[Lytton]

They might be from the 70s.

No, the ones in Redding, look modern.

[myosh_tino]

They might be from the 70s.

No, the ones in Redding, look modern.

I think vdeane was referencing your comment that you saw external exit tabs on portions of I-5 and US 101 in and around downtown Los Angeles.  Those older tabs were put up in the 1970's as a Caltrans experiment and can be easily identified because they are center-aligned and do not use reflective sheeting.

[KEK Inc.]

@ myosh_tino

He's probably talking about these:







Here's one in Orange County.


Wind-loading my ass.

[pctech]

I think the wind-loading claim is lame too.

[kkt]

Have exit tabs been blowing off in hurricanes, in the states that get hurricanes?

[Bickendan]

Personally, I happen to like CalTrans' internal exit tabs.

However, I'm in agreement about the wind-load claim being crap.

[pctech]

I'm in southern Louisiana. We of course can be exposed to hurricane force winds. I've seen entire signs blow off the sign bridge or damaged, but I don't think the exit# tabs really had much been much of a factor. I've never seen a sign with just the tab blown off. (though I'm sure it could happen) I was on a road trip along the gulf coast recently, both Miss and Al. use exit tabs above the signs. Perhaps the signs here are attached better to compensate for the wind risk.
What I find  interesting about CA. is a lack of consistency with the exit# issue. I've seen 3 different versions in picture/videos.

Mark

[pctech]

Caltrans does it's "exit only" signing a little different than what you'd see here too.

[KEK Inc.]

Have exit tabs been blowing off in hurricanes, in the states that get hurricanes?

All of the states with hurricanes (except Georgia) use external tabs...  Nevada gets more wind (due to elevation and climate) than California, and they use external tabs with the exact same struts on their gantries and sign bridges.

[kphoger]

Isn't this like the fifth time it's been explained on the forum:  changing to external exit tabs would also require the state to conduct additional wind-loading studies first–which means more time, manpower, and money that is arguably unnecessary to spend.

[roadfro]

Even if Caltrans would need to do more wind loading studies, that is something they could slowly do as time permits with existing manpower of engineering/research staff so that they wouldn't need to spend any extra money.

Or maybe just call over to NDOT. Nevada uses many of the same box truss sign bridges and has similar sign sizing standards, yet still uses external exit tabs. If Nevada actually experiences much more wind than California, then NDOT might already have information on wind loading that Caltrans could find useful.


I wonder if part of Caltrans' thinking is that the external tab adds to sign area and overall cost for additional support, etc. That certainly makes sense for replacing existing signs within the same footprint (i.e. new signs with exit numbers for CalNExUS).

[Alps]

Even if Caltrans would need to do more wind loading studies, that is something they could slowly do as time permits with existing manpower of engineering/research staff so that they wouldn't need to spend any extra money.

Or maybe just call over to NDOT. Nevada uses many of the same box truss sign bridges and has similar sign sizing standards, yet still uses external exit tabs. If Nevada actually experiences much more wind than California, then NDOT might already have information on wind loading that Caltrans could find useful.


I wonder if part of Caltrans' thinking is that the external tab adds to sign area and overall cost for additional support, etc. That certainly makes sense for replacing existing signs within the same footprint (i.e. new signs with exit numbers for CalNExUS).

From an engineering standpoint: Caltrans designed the gantries to a particular set of sign dimensions (I believe elsewhere 10 feet was established as the maximum height). Anything deviating from those dimensions needs backup engineering calculations, even if it's patently obvious that it will work fine. Why? Because if on 15,000 installations, only one has an issue, and the wind causes that one sign to pop off and injure or, worse, kill a driver, Caltrans is out tens of millions of dollars in liability and will be forced to do all the calculations for all the signs at that time anyway.

[pctech]

How long does Caltrans expect that it will take to have exit numbers on all the freeway signs that qualify? I know that they started changing them out in the early 2000's.

Mark

[myosh_tino]

How long does Caltrans expect that it will take to have exit numbers on all the freeway signs that qualify? I know that they started changing them out in the early 2000's.

Mark

The original completion date for numbering all exits was supposed to be late 2004 but budget problems forced Caltrans to remove the completion date entirely.  The new policy is when signs are replaced, the new signs will include an exit number.  Given the fact that some California signs are 50+ years old, it could be 2030 before all exits are numbered. 

[andy3175]

How long does Caltrans expect that it will take to have exit numbers on all the freeway signs that qualify? I know that they started changing them out in the early 2000's.

Mark

The original completion date for numbering all exits was supposed to be late 2004 but budget problems forced Caltrans to remove the completion date entirely.  The new policy is when signs are replaced, the new signs will include an exit number.  Given the fact that some California signs are 50+ years old, it could be 2030 before all exits are numbered. 

Myosh_tino,

Where did you learn that Caltrans was only adding exit numbers as signs are replaced? I was wondering what the criteria has been for sign replacement, since sign age does not seem to be an indicator of whether the sign should be replaced. I've noticed most new signs these days are added whenever a construction project adds lanes, resurfaces pavement, or otherwise alters the roadway. An exception was the recent sign replacement from Dec 2012 that removed all SR 209 and SR 274 signs from the various intersecting freeways. (There are a few more SR 274 signs around if you know where to look!)

Regards,
Andy

[roadfro]

Where did you learn that Caltrans was only adding exit numbers as signs are replaced?

6th paragraph at http://www.cahighways.org/num-exitnum.html -- That's where I read it.

[pctech]

When the exit is left handed, other than place the exit# to left of the sign apparently CA doesn't add the "left exit" warning? The few I've seen photos of seem to be labeled this way.

Mark

[vdeane]

If they don't use tabs, do you really think they're gonna use even bigger taps to deal with a change in the 2009 MUTCD?

[agentsteel53]

Check out southbound I-5 in Tehema County.  For the most part, external exit tabs are used on roadside signs and not on overhead signs.  There are also a few random external exit tabbed signs scattered across the state too.

I just drove that segment a week ago.  I spotted one button copy sign with an externally mounted retroreflective tab which had been retrofitted to it.  I believe exit 653, but don't quote me on that.