New Jersey Turnpike

[PHLBOS]

The merge area is standardized. Don't quote me, but it's something like 900 feet from the theoretical gore or 1200 feet from the beginning of the broken stripe or 1500 feet from the beginning of the merge taper tangent. Anyway, regardless, it is a standard on the entire Turnpike. If it "feels" shorter to you than others, maybe it's because traffic is flowing faster without all the congestion, so you have to accelerate to a higher speed to merge. I would be very surprised if it was actually any shorter than standard.

From several posts back (I will call Exhibits A & B):

Here's an example of an unchanged existing entrance ramp onto the mainline. The new roadway seems to have gotten rid of the two or three "stripe-lengths" of lane before ending like here.

So either the NJTA was previously more generous with the merge areas and the new merge areas are the bare minimums with respect to their standards or the NJTA's standards themselves for such have changed in recent years.

Nonetheless, I've used the NJ Turnpike for nearly 25 years (and have entered and exited at different interchanges/service plazas from time to time) and I've only encountered hitting the brakes while merging since the recent expansion was completed.

Clearly something definitely changed here.

[Alps]

Ints. 1-4 are an interesting beast. There are two questions at play - how much of the perceived problem is actually due to backups radiating up from Delaware Memorial Bridge, and how much will the eventual 95/276 connection draw traffic off of the Turnpike? As the Turnpike adds traffic sensors in that stretch, I'll finally get to play with some real data and see what the answer is.

You have the sensors there right now.  The sensors are called the cell phones and similar devices (including some fleet vehicles) that all or nearly all N.J. Turnpike patrons have in their vehicles, combined with cell towers, which results in Inrix datasets showing speeds for the entire Turnpike system.  Not saying that sensor data is bad (it is not, and it has some advantages over Inrix, but mostly on arterial-class roads).

You can probably get access to the data for free as well, which is really pretty good for freeway-class roads.  You will have no problem playing with the Inrix data either.

If you wish, I can explain in more detail when I see you in the near future.

Oh, I'm well aware of what's out there now. But the only way to properly assess the need to add capacity is to measure existing volumes. Using speeds is a poor proxy.

[cpzilliacus]

Oh, I'm well aware of what's out there now. But the only way to properly assess the need to add capacity is to measure existing volumes. Using speeds is a poor proxy.

I agree regarding volumes.  Nothing better.

Though even on a closed ticket-type toll road like the N.J. Turnpike (where link-level volumes by direction and day of week and time of day may be pretty easy to obtain [but maybe not - there's an off-topic story here]), speeds do tell a story that persons not familiar with the Highway Capacity Manual can understand.

[jeffandnicole]

So, anyone remember these masterpieces from the NJ Turnpike widening construction?

(From the "NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway go MUTCD!" thread)

Mercifully, it's gone, covered up and hopefully never seen again.  Apologies for the poor photo (taken at dawn this morning), but it does allow you to see they replaced the arrow with a new arrow on a greenout plate.  The arrow may be a bit on the small size, but they did a good job fitting in the greenout so it doesn't cover the 'e' in Turnpike.  They even used the traditional turnpike slant arrow, rather than that newfangled MUTCD arrow.  These signs were on the Northbound Turnpike.  Similar treatments were done on the southbound signs as well.

[roadman65]

Why are some signs reading "New York" while some read "New York City?"  I noticed on GSV that the Exit 5 pull through uses the former while this one here is using the latter.

I know that lately NJDOT has been using "New York City" lately as a move to not confuse motorists between the either the City or the State with the same exact name, but this is from the same set of signs all being installed at one time.  You would figure some consistency here.

[vdeane]

The signs for exits 6-8A were installed as part of the Turnpike widening contract.  A pull though at exit 5 would be part of a separate contract that could have been designed at a different time; the fact that it was installed around the same time is likely just a coincidence.

[Don'tKnowYet]

Why are some signs reading "New York" while some read "New York City?"  I noticed on GSV that the Exit 5 pull through uses the former while this one here is using the latter.

I know that lately NJDOT has been using "New York City" lately as a move to not confuse motorists between the either the City or the State with the same exact name, but this is from the same set of signs all being installed at one time.  You would figure some consistency here.

I had the opportunity to ask the NJTA Traffic Engineer this exact question at a presentation about four years ago.  He said there are two reasons.  1) The "0 to 5" signs--as he called them--were a different contract let shortly before the Turnpike 6 to 9 widening.  They apparently were not designed at the same time with the same direction from the powers that be.  The powers that be at the time directed him to stick with New York.  Then when the widening contracts were being designed, the new powers that be directed him to use New York City north of 5. 

2) He also said south of 6 in the two-lane section, adding City to the pull-through sign laterally lengthens the sign unnecessarily creating an unwieldy display on the overall  truss.  An example is http://goo.gl/maps/4fQ0U.  He said he was not a fan of putting pretinent information over the shoulders.  Looking at the example at Interchange 2, I had seen his point since the Exit Direction sign for Interchange 2 is already halfway over the shoulder.

[roadman]

2) He also said south of 6 in the two-lane section, adding City to the pull-through sign laterally lengthens the sign unnecessarily creating an unwieldy display on the overall  truss.  An example is http://goo.gl/maps/4fQ0U.  He said he was not a fan of putting pretinent information over the shoulders.  Looking at the example at Interchange 2, I had seen his point since the Exit Direction sign for Interchange 2 is already halfway over the shoulder.

There's a simple solution to that - NY City

[J Route Z]

Why are some signs reading "New York" while some read "New York City?"  I noticed on GSV that the Exit 5 pull through uses the former while this one here is using the latter.

I know that lately NJDOT has been using "New York City" lately as a move to not confuse motorists between the either the City or the State with the same exact name, but this is from the same set of signs all being installed at one time.  You would figure some consistency here.

How come not all of the Thru Traffic Next Exit XX Miles signs are still posted?

[NJRoadfan]

They had no problem posting "Wilmington" on the southbound signs, so sign width likely wasn't an issue.

[jeffandnicole]

As long as it's south if exit 10, New York and New York City are both fine destinations. Exit 10 is a good split of you want to go to NYC (Stay on the Turnpike) or go into interior New York (via 287). 

[Don'tKnowYet]

They had no problem posting "Wilmington" on the southbound signs, so sign width likely wasn't an issue.

Stop it. Were they supposed to abbreviate it to Wilma and essentially legitimize the ridiculous practice of Phila across the river?  I'm sure this forum would have had nothing but accolades if Wilmington was abbreviated. It's called engineering judgment.

[cl94]

They had no problem posting "Wilmington" on the southbound signs, so sign width likely wasn't an issue.

Stop it. Were they supposed to abbreviate it to Wilma and essentially legitimize the ridiculous practice of Phila across the river?  I'm sure this forum would have had nothing but accolades if Wilmington was abbreviated. It's called engineering judgment.

Yes. New York is acceptable for "New York City" in that situation because you'll reach the state if you head north from most of New Jersey. "Phila." is not great, but everyone knows what it means, so it isn't an issue. "Wilmington" has no abbreviation, plus the space in "New York" means that "Wilmington" requires approximately the same amount of horizontal space. Spaces on BGSes tend to be the width of 2-3 letters to increase legibility and word distinction.

[NE2]

"Wilmington" has no abbreviation

Wilm: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22wilm%22+delaware&tbm=nws

[jeffandnicole]

Baltimore would've been the better choice, since that's the direction most of the travelers are going anyway.

[Pete from Boston]

They had no problem posting "Wilmington" on the southbound signs, so sign width likely wasn't an issue.

Stop it. Were they supposed to abbreviate it to Wilma and essentially legitimize the ridiculous practice of Phila across the river?  I'm sure this forum would have had nothing but accolades if Wilmington was abbreviated. It's called engineering judgment.

"Phila" and "Penna" are already legitimized by generations of use. 

[Alex]

"Wilmington" has no abbreviation

Wilm: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22wilm%22+delaware&tbm=nws

Port of Wilmington occasionally is displayed as Port of Wilm. The Wilm abbreviation is known locally in Delaware otherwise, but I would not advocate it as a mainline control city.

[jeffandnicole]

Why are some signs reading "New York" while some read "New York City?"  I noticed on GSV that the Exit 5 pull through uses the former while this one here is using the latter.

I know that lately NJDOT has been using "New York City" lately as a move to not confuse motorists between the either the City or the State with the same exact name, but this is from the same set of signs all being installed at one time.  You would figure some consistency here.

They had no problem posting "Wilmington" on the southbound signs, so sign width likely wasn't an issue.

Here's a sign reference standard drawing sheet for various NJ Turnpike pull-thru signage.

http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/SD-NJTA-SL18.pdf

You'll notice the signage on the left that states New York is 18 feet wide, which leaves plenty of room on either side of 'New York'.  To the right are signs for Camden & Wilmington, which are on 15' signage.  Yes, the Wilmington sign says 18' above that, but I think that's a mis-print.  Below, the 3 measurements (18 5/8, 142 3/4 & 18 5/8 equal 15', and matches the Camden sign above in all other respects.

Now, using Don't Know Yet's link:  http://goo.gl/maps/4fQ0U, you can see that the Standard Drawing for New York wasn't used, so most likely the posted New York sign is 15' wide, which hangs slightly over the shoulder.  An 18' wide sign would hang at least 6' over the shoulder, and would come much closer to the edge of the overhead gantry.

The point I'm making here (yes, there's a point), is that while Wilmington fits on a 15' sign, and New York appears to fit on a 15' sign, New York City would not fit on a 15' sign, and would most likely need an 18' wide sign.  You can actually see how much wider the New York City sign is in this GSV: http://goo.gl/maps/APntM . I couldn't find any standard drawings on any of the NJ Turnpike's websites to verify this, but utilizing the drawings that are available, sign width probably is an issue.

[roadman65]

 I see how at Exit 2 the exit guide sign hangs over part of the shoulder.  South of Exit 4 there is a serious space issue, however it could be signed like this on the pull through:
            New York
                City

or simply like Connecticut does: NY City.

For the record " New York" is fine by me as I think  that if you cannot figure out the difference between the two of them (both City and State) then you should not be driving.   Maybe closer to the area, it might make a little more sense, but from a distance and considering the Turnpike heads close to NYC it should not be that hard for anyone to figure out. 

If you really want confusion go to I-29 in Kansas City where the pull through signs for "Kansas City" stay with I-29 S Bound even at I-635 where you would exit I-29 to go to Kansas City, KS.  Instead I-635 has no control point (unless you consider the State of Kansas one) and if you just flew in from KCI you might get confused at that point and stay on I-29 to reach even Kansas City, KS when I-635 is the route into the Kansas city with the same name.

[Zeffy]

"Phila" and "Penna" are already legitimized by generations of use.

I actually use "Penna" in every day conversations now referring to Pennsylvania. What'd be interesting if instead of "Phila", they signed "Philly", because it's not like anyone wouldn't know where you'd end up.

[roadman]

Spaces on BGSes tend to be the width of 2-3 letters to increase legibility and word distinction.

Never heard of that "standard" before.  Typically, horizontal spaces between words on BGSes match the height of the upper-case letters in the legend.  For example, if "New York" is 16/12 legend, the space between "New" and "York" would be 16 inches.  Left and right horizontal margins are at least the height of the lower-case letters in the legend (in this case 12 inches) but are often rounded up to the nearest six-inch increment for easier panel fabrication.

[jeffandnicole]

"Phila" and "Penna" are already legitimized by generations of use.

I actually use "Penna" in every day conversations now referring to Pennsylvania. What'd be interesting if instead of "Phila", they signed "Philly", because it's not like anyone wouldn't know where you'd end up.

I'm almost surprised we've never seen "Philly" written on an official highway sign, as common of an abbreviation as it is when both spoken and written.  On occasion, a NJ VMS will alert to a traffic issue on one of Philly's highways; the messages don't tend to default to any one common route name (ie: one day it may say "Accident on PA I-76 West"; another day it may say "Accident on Schuylkill Exp" (because of the familiarity of the term within the region); although these messages are usually only when the highway will be closed for an extended period of time.  But I can't specifically recall if they've ever said "Philly".

[Alps]

Here's a sign reference standard drawing sheet for various NJ Turnpike pull-thru signage.

http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/SD-NJTA-SL18.pdf

You'll notice the signage on the left that states New York is 18 feet wide, which leaves plenty of room on either side of 'New York'.  To the right are signs for Camden & Wilmington, which are on 15' signage.  Yes, the Wilmington sign says 18' above that, but I think that's a mis-print.  Below, the 3 measurements (18 5/8, 142 3/4 & 18 5/8 equal 15', and matches the Camden sign above in all other respects.

Crap. Got copied over from the 2nd column. Yeah, the signs are governed by the width of the principal legend on top, not the destination.

[NJRoadfan]

The NJTPA doesn't even follow their own drawings. The new southbound GSP pull through at Exit 129 says "Shore Points" instead of Toms River. At least the Exit 129 signs list both Camden and New York City as control cities for the NJTP.

[Roadrunner75]

I'm almost surprised we've never seen "Philly" written on an official highway sign, as common of an abbreviation as it is when both spoken and written. 

Or, perhaps: