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Author Topic: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840  (Read 37529 times)

HPfromTN

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2018, 08:17:07 PM »

The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.
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Brooks

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2018, 01:08:20 PM »

The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt at a “voter grab”.  Diane Black doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about when it comes to transportation infrastructure (and other things too, see this news article https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/).  She has no idea of the sheer cost that double decking downtown freeways and building out the northern I-840 loop would have.  There is even a quote of her saying “billion dollar liberal boondoggles are not the solution”. Well, Diane, how about your wonderful multi-billion dollar boondoggle?  To get back on topic and end my political mini-rant, I believe that the only area this northern loop has any merit is from Lebanon to Gallatin (and up to I-65). However, the improvements and widening of SR 109 should be sufficient.
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dvferyance

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2018, 04:52:30 PM »

The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt at a “voter grab”.  Diane Black doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about when it comes to transportation infrastructure (and other things too, see this news article https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/).  She has no idea of the sheer cost that double decking downtown freeways and building out the northern I-840 loop would have.  There is even a quote of her saying “billion dollar liberal boondoggles are not the solution”. Well, Diane, how about your wonderful multi-billion dollar boondoggle?  To get back on topic and end my political mini-rant, I believe that the only area this northern loop has any merit is from Lebanon to Gallatin (and up to I-65). However, the improvements and widening of SR 109 should be sufficient.
Anything that a politician says is to get votes. Nothing out of the ordinary here.
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sparker

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2018, 09:02:19 PM »

The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt at a “voter grab”.  Diane Black doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about when it comes to transportation infrastructure (and other things too, see this news article https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/).  She has no idea of the sheer cost that double decking downtown freeways and building out the northern I-840 loop would have.  There is even a quote of her saying “billion dollar liberal boondoggles are not the solution”. Well, Diane, how about your wonderful multi-billion dollar boondoggle?  To get back on topic and end my political mini-rant, I believe that the only area this northern loop has any merit is from Lebanon to Gallatin (and up to I-65). However, the improvements and widening of SR 109 should be sufficient.
Anything that a politician says is to get votes. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Obviously someone who's merely attempting to appeal to her "base" (public mass transit geared toward not her base=bad; public funds directed toward projects appealing to her supposed backers in the 'burbs=good); agreed that there's nothing out of the ordinary to report here.  But the notion of extending at least the eastern end of I-840 north to meet I-65 -- and thus create a bypass for I-65 as well as I-40 -- does have merit.  Such would likely go a long way to quell any "doubledecking" talk in the urban core; and accomplish something that cheaping out with spot fixes on TN 109 won't even begin to do -- provide an efficient alternate route for another direction of through traffic. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:04:36 PM by sparker »
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HPfromTN

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2018, 01:37:24 PM »

Black's Lane not Trains ad probably earned her some new support, because the ridiculous light rail plan would have been a joke, and the voters saw it for what it was--a chance to allow a campaign contributor to win the bid to do the work for more than a decade.  Also, the I-840 northern extension can only help her receive more support in the very populated bedroom counties of Sumner, Wilson, Robertson, and Dickson.  For 30 years, candidates promised to improve US 64 across southern Tennessee, because business was seeing their customers travel US-72 from Memphis to Chattanooga or take I-40 to I-24 through Nashville.  Many governor's races came and went with 64 seeing no improvements.  It finally happened, but by then, I-840 had shaved off enough time in the bypass of Nashville to not help with tourism.

The traffic issue is real.  With 100 people moving to Nashville every day, you can see the congestion accumulate over a period of about 6 months.  Every 6 months, our 8-mile commute gets about 2 or 3 minutes longer on some mornings and some afternoons.  It there is a wreck, then you better know 4 or 5 alternate detours.

We live in the Bellevue/West Meade area.  My wife had to go to Donelson on Thursday evenings to teach a class at 6:30 PM.  When she started doing this, the commute was maybe 35-40 minutes.  By the time she gave it up, the commute at that time of day was between an hour and 15 and an hour and a half.  Earlier this year, we had to rent a car for a Route 66 Road Tour.  When we came home and unpacked, we had 2 hours to get the car back to the airport before being charged an extra day.  I-440 was totally stopped, and Briley Parkway was going about 5-10 miles per hour.  We almost didn't make it in time.  It took an hour and 50 ridiculous minutes to go 24 miles.

The city has too much sprawl for rail to ever be effective unless CSX becomes a good neighbor and allows commuter trains on their spider web of track.  They won't even give their okay to have the Hillwood Blvd. bridge over their track and Richland Creek to be torn down and replaced, before it comes down on its own like what happened in Minneapolis in the last decade.

The only logical solution for a city like Nashville is to add more lanes.  The dumb idea of having light rail running down the middle of major thoroughfares and severely limiting left turns made Congressman Black's commercials very effective in this area, and this area might determine which way her primary goes.  She's currently nursing a small lead over Boyd in the polls with Beth Harwell and Bill Lee well back.
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Life in Paradise

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2018, 02:26:07 PM »

Due to the terrain issues, the Nashville problem will continue.  It is one of those major metropolitan areas that has and will have an insufficient auto transit network, although they have tried to make improvements.  (I remember the days of the four lane Briley Parkway that dead ended into US 31 on the north side).  It could not hurt for through traffic to have alternative routes.  The "northeast leg" of I-840 would help if it went up the TN-109 corridor as it could and perhaps route back to I-65 north of White House.  They also could use some sort of cross route north of Goodletesville between I-65 and I-24, but again you run into some terrain issues, as you would south of I-24 torwards I-40.  They pulled out I-840 so far that it doesn't really help metro Nashville traffic as much as bypassing through traffic.
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sparker

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2018, 04:05:53 PM »

Due to the terrain issues, the Nashville problem will continue.  It is one of those major metropolitan areas that has and will have an insufficient auto transit network, although they have tried to make improvements.  (I remember the days of the four lane Briley Parkway that dead ended into US 31 on the north side).  It could not hurt for through traffic to have alternative routes.  The "northeast leg" of I-840 would help if it went up the TN-109 corridor as it could and perhaps route back to I-65 north of White House.  They also could use some sort of cross route north of Goodletesville between I-65 and I-24, but again you run into some terrain issues, as you would south of I-24 torwards I-40.  They pulled out I-840 so far that it doesn't really help metro Nashville traffic as much as bypassing through traffic.

The whole Cumberland Plateau area is one large "terrain issue"; when you've got hills and rivers in relatively deep gorges, there's going to be a lot of cut, fill, and structures to deploy.  Of course, avoiding the worst of it -- like with the southern arc of I-840 -- does lend itself to shorter-term feasibililty  (which is why that section is completed and operational!).  No doubt it will take considerably more effort to build anything north of I-40 -- but in the long haul, at least extending the eastern leg of I-840 north parallel to TN 109 and up to I-65 would likely prove to be a worthwhile enterprise, as it will then provide a N-S bypass for I-65 as well as I-40, potentially diverting through traffic, particularly of the commercial variety, away from downtown Nashville.  Doing likewise for I-24 would be much more problematic and involve much more expense; IMO, the most stratightforward extension as described above would provide the most regional "bang for the buck", so to speak.   
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hbelkins

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2018, 07:46:45 PM »

Black's Lane not Trains ad probably earned her some new support, because the ridiculous light rail plan would have been a joke, and the voters saw it for what it was--a chance to allow a campaign contributor to win the bid to do the work for more than a decade.  Also, the I-840 northern extension can only help her receive more support in the very populated bedroom counties of Sumner, Wilson, Robertson, and Dickson.  For 30 years, candidates promised to improve US 64 across southern Tennessee, because business was seeing their customers travel US-72 from Memphis to Chattanooga or take I-40 to I-24 through Nashville.  Many governor's races came and went with 64 seeing no improvements.  It finally happened, but by then, I-840 had shaved off enough time in the bypass of Nashville to not help with tourism.

I've only driven bits and pieces of US 64 across the southern tier of the state, but it has a problem that it shares with a lot of other Tennessee four-lane surface artierials. That being a lot of five-lane sections with a TWLTL and a 45 mph speed limit.
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LM117

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2018, 05:03:12 AM »

The city has too much sprawl for rail to ever be effective unless CSX becomes a good neighbor and allows commuter trains on their spider web of track.  They won't even give their okay to have the Hillwood Blvd. bridge over their track and Richland Creek to be torn down and replaced, before it comes down on its own like what happened in Minneapolis in the last decade.

Doesn’t surprise me. CSX isn’t known for playing well with others.
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sparker

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2018, 07:56:49 PM »

The city has too much sprawl for rail to ever be effective unless CSX becomes a good neighbor and allows commuter trains on their spider web of track.  They won't even give their okay to have the Hillwood Blvd. bridge over their track and Richland Creek to be torn down and replaced, before it comes down on its own like what happened in Minneapolis in the last decade.

Doesn’t surprise me. CSX isn’t known for playing well with others.

From past history of commute-rail deployment over existing freight rail lines, the RR company involved will invariably "ask for the moon" in terms of publicly-funded track expansion and improvement, air-tight signaling and safety measures (these days, that means PTC for all new installations of the sort), and effective market-rate "rent" for the use of their ROW.  Seeing as how CSX has a monopoly on regional trackage (except the old TC line to the east, now sporadically used for tourism), they would definitely be in the "catbird" seat regarding any commuter aspirations.  That being said -- now that Hunter Harrison's gone (RIP), CSX seems to have "mellowed" just a tad; their reduced coal traffic seems to have made them aware that they're not alone in the transportation world.  But all major railroads still tend to play hardball with cities trying to install commuter rail; it's not impossible, just a lot of trouble & expense, especially when starting from scratch!
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codyg1985

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2018, 07:35:07 AM »

Black's Lane not Trains ad probably earned her some new support, because the ridiculous light rail plan would have been a joke, and the voters saw it for what it was--a chance to allow a campaign contributor to win the bid to do the work for more than a decade.  Also, the I-840 northern extension can only help her receive more support in the very populated bedroom counties of Sumner, Wilson, Robertson, and Dickson.  For 30 years, candidates promised to improve US 64 across southern Tennessee, because business was seeing their customers travel US-72 from Memphis to Chattanooga or take I-40 to I-24 through Nashville.  Many governor's races came and went with 64 seeing no improvements.  It finally happened, but by then, I-840 had shaved off enough time in the bypass of Nashville to not help with tourism.

I've only driven bits and pieces of US 64 across the southern tier of the state, but it has a problem that it shares with a lot of other Tennessee four-lane surface artierials. That being a lot of five-lane sections with a TWLTL and a 45 mph speed limit.

Another issue being that the improved route often requires exiting the existing route to avoid going into the city being bypassed (Fayetteville, TN being an example) or to avoid staying on another route (Selmer, TN being an example)
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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2018, 04:27:42 PM »

A lot of people in Atlanta wish now that the "Northern Arc" had been built.  Nashville ought to take note of that situation and at least start planning for an extension of I-840 before its too late. 
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Team445

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2020, 01:04:17 AM »

A high speed train would be ideal.
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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2020, 02:55:26 PM »

A high speed train would be ideal.

Yet unbelievably -- and undeniably -- expensive.  And we're talking about a train functionally replacing the bypass loop extension that's the subject of this thread.  Commute rail is almost universally hub/spoke in nature, not peripheral.  HSR is reserved for interregional purposes -- but as we out here in CA have witnessed, far easier said than done!  Bypasses like I-840 have 2 purposes -- divert through traffic away from city centers, and render commuting to exurbs easier (the latter concept largely objectionable to urban activists).  That and HSR aren't even apples & oranges -- their scope and purpose are in two separate realms.   
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Team445

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2020, 10:28:56 AM »

A high speed train would be ideal.

Yet unbelievably -- and undeniably -- expensive.  And we're talking about a train functionally replacing the bypass loop extension that's the subject of this thread.  Commute rail is almost universally hub/spoke in nature, not peripheral.  HSR is reserved for interregional purposes -- but as we out here in CA have witnessed, far easier said than done!  Bypasses like I-840 have 2 purposes -- divert through traffic away from city centers, and render commuting to exurbs easier (the latter concept largely objectionable to urban activists).  That and HSR aren't even apples & oranges -- their scope and purpose are in two separate realms.   

Its just what happened with the Music City Star. I-40 from Lebanon to Nashville is being widened.
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Brooks

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2020, 12:54:17 PM »

Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.
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MikieTimT

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2020, 01:13:55 PM »

Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.

That ship has likely sailed with I-22 stopping at I-269 instead of I-240.  I find that stretch of US-78 so horrible and depressing now, that I bypass it with I-269/I-55 at the expense of some miles and a little bit of time.
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sprjus4

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2020, 01:19:30 PM »

Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.

That ship has likely sailed with I-22 stopping at I-269 instead of I-240.  I find that stretch of US-78 so horrible and depressing now, that I bypass it with I-269/I-55 at the expense of some miles and a little bit of time.
Even Google recommends it as the quickest route. I haven't driven up from that way, but it would be a no brainer to take I-269 and I-55 as opposed to US-78.
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Brooks

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It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2020, 01:30:14 PM »

Just because it’s not going to become an interstate doesn’t mean it should merely be ignored. Just because out of state travelers don’t typically use this highway doesn’t mean nobody uses it. Does the ugly appearance and lack of an interstate designation mean we should just pretend this highway doesn’t exist? That truck traffic isn’t going anywhere. With the amount of distribution facilities and warehouses in the vicinity (and with several that are new or in development) the traffic will only get worse unless something is done. However, it does not surprise me that a project with microscopic importance to Nashville will win out over one with major strategic importance to Memphis. TN loves to pretend that Memphis isn’t a part of their state, even though the economic numbers speak for themselves.
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sprjus4

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2020, 01:38:08 PM »

Ideally, US-78 should be upgraded to freeway standards up to I-240 (or at least a Jersey freeway) but it would involve a major undertaking to make such a project possible including significant right of way acquisition and high cost.

I don't think there's any official proposals to complete the northern half of I-840, but if it was done, it would provide a bypass for I-24 and I-65 thru traffic to avoid Nashville entirely. The project has -some- warrant.

I agree US-78 is certainly of more importance.
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dvferyance

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2020, 01:56:04 PM »

Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.
You apparently have never been to Nashville during rush hour. With Nashville growing like leaps and bounds a full beltway is by no means useless.
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Brooks

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2020, 02:05:00 PM »

I travel through Nashville whenever I am headed to Kentucky or points north (roughly once every 2 months) and from the experiences I’ve had, unless you’re driving through in the middle of rush hour, Briley Pkwy is more than sufficient for my route (coming in from Memphis on I-40 heading towards I-65 north to the Kentucky line). It could definitely use some work (shoulders, auxiliary lanes, etc.) but while a northern I-840 might not be “useless”, it would definitely be a highly underused boondoggle. I’d venture to guess you have not traveled down Lamar Ave before.
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sparker

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2020, 08:20:46 PM »

Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.

That ship has likely sailed with I-22 stopping at I-269 instead of I-240.  I find that stretch of US-78 so horrible and depressing now, that I bypass it with I-269/I-55 at the expense of some miles and a little bit of time.
Even Google recommends it as the quickest route. I haven't driven up from that way, but it would be a no brainer to take I-269 and I-55 as opposed to US-78.

That's for sure; "depressing" is an apt term for Lamar Ave.  I only wish 55/269 had been in place when I was making 3-4 trips a year through there on my way to and from Atlanta when my GF was taking care of her dad there circa 2000-01.  Unless your idea of scenery is a combination of rusty buildings and grass gone to weeds, it's one stretch to avoid!
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sprjus4

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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2020, 10:02:50 PM »

That’s a good point, there was not an alternate, freeway connection before I-269 opened. Now both the I-269 / I-55 connection along with I-269 / TN-385 provide freeway connections between I-22 and I-240.

Now, does that eliminate the need for improvements on US-71? No. There’s interchange projects planned / underway, and eventually the corridor will warrant a full freeway upgrade. However, having network redundancies and alternate freeway corridors available, that could’ve helped to divert some traffic and also allow thru traffic to bypass that segment entirely.
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Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2020, 10:12:12 PM »

I travel through Nashville whenever I am headed to Kentucky or points north (roughly once every 2 months) and from the experiences I’ve had, unless you’re driving through in the middle of rush hour, Briley Pkwy is more than sufficient for my route (coming in from Memphis on I-40 heading towards I-65 north to the Kentucky line). It could definitely use some work (shoulders, auxiliary lanes, etc.) but while a northern I-840 might not be “useless”, it would definitely be a highly underused boondoggle. I’d venture to guess you have not traveled down Lamar Ave before.

I think the problem with I-840 is that it extends out way too far in each direction; it's convenient for northbound I-65 travelers well south of Nashville who are headed to points east/west on I-40, but it doesn't seem to be a genuine bypass. It's roughly twice the radius of a useful ring road, but I suppose that would put it smack dab in Franklin, so that wouldn't have happened.

In 25 years they'll be glad they built it, but I don't think it would solve that many issues with the knotted up design of I-24/40/65, because cars and trucks actually have to get to Nashville proper. I'll settle for an arc that completes it to I-24 towards Clarksdale Clarksville.

Also, Briley Parkway doesn't have a real connection to I-65, and will never be a 4-lane road west of I-65 and south of I-440 on its present alignment.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 05:43:58 AM by formulanone »
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