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New Jersey Turnpike striping/signing inconsistencies with the current MUTCD?

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storm2k:

--- Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 30, 2021, 09:18:08 AM ---
--- Quote from: Breadman17 on August 30, 2021, 12:52:29 AM ---
--- Quote from: Alps on August 30, 2021, 12:39:49 AM ---2. The MUTCD does not dictate striping lengths. It gives approximate ratios but does not require anything in particular. And yes, gore points used to be filled in for visibility. Many agencies use hatching now.

--- End quote ---

Understandable how they might want to change the signs because they may appear more visible, even if I have an attachment to the old ones (especially the old button copies), but I don’t quite understand why the turnpike would switch to hatching though if the best thing to do is to make everything as visible as possible to ensure fewer mistakes/accidents? Is it too costly for how effective it actually is to fill in the whole thing? And on the striping, the difference on the turnpike’s vs normal roads is pretty big. If they’re 10 feet long on a normal road then that’s a ratio of 1:3, but on the turnpike, if they’re 20/25 feet long that ends up with a ratio of 1:1 or 5:3 which is a pretty big difference. If they just do it differently just because they do then that’s what it is, sometimes i just gotta ask, ya know?

Also your website is awesome! It’s actually the thing that got me to want to visit the NJTP in the first place. Also inspired me to make my own to a degree to post all my pictures that i take of roads to. Super cool!!!

--- End quote ---

The NJTA has often said they use the longer dashed (aka 'skip') lines for visibility.  Using measurements from Google's aerial views, the skip lines tend to run about 25-28 feet in length, with the gap around 22-23 feet in length. There's one or two other roads in the country that use similar line lengths, but overall it's rare to see this length or ratio.

Also, when people ask about cost, such as for the gore points, I think that questioning runs directly in contrast to the skip line length.  If the Turnpike wanted to save money, they could reduce the length of the skip lines.  If anything, changing the gore points from solid to hatching actually costs more money, especially upfront, because the white paint needs to be painted over with black paint to create the hatching. 

Just to show a comparison of costs: If transportation agencies in general wanted to reduce costs, every roadway would feature unrestricted passing zones (which only require a skip line painted) over a full no passing zone (which requires 2 solid lines).  Thus, in general, a no passing zone costs up to 6 times the amount of paint, compared to a no passing zone!  A one-sided passing zone still costs about 4x the amount of an unrestricted passing zone.

The Turnpike has gone more-MUTCD in some other areas though.  The deceleration lanes for exits now use the dotted lines at nearly every exit.  And especially from Interchanges 9 - 18, you will fine the Turnpike has switched over to the commonly used MUTCD-style exit signage.



--- End quote ---

NJTA's MUTCD-esque signage (as I call it, since it is substantially compliant but the Turnpike Authority will still do its own things where it feels it's warranted) is going to eventually be replaced for the entire length of the roadway, but I believe that they will only replace things when signs reach their end of service life dates. All signs from 6 to 9 were installed during the dualization project, so they're from around 2009 and still have a while to go before they're replaced. Most signs south of there were replaced in the late aughts or early teens as well save for a few sign bridges (at Interchange 5, and also at 4) but the NJTA is taking down those sign bridges, and lo and behold, the new signs going up at those locations are now MUTCD-esque. So the rest of the roadway will get the signs, it's just a matter of when.

cpzilliacus:

--- Quote from: Alps on August 30, 2021, 12:39:49 AM ---1. If you look at the most recent signs, the arrows and formatting have changed to substantial conformance with the MUTCD.
2. The MUTCD does not dictate striping lengths. It gives approximate ratios but does not require anything in particular. And yes, gore points used to be filled in for visibility. Many agencies use hatching now.

--- End quote ---

Nice that the "old school" New Jersey Turnpike sign designs were used southbound and northbound approaching Exit 6 - they are presumably going to be with us for a long time to come.  I am not a huge fan of the design, but I like its unique attributes not seen on other freeways in the United States.

Now if someone could convince the NJTA to use the Penn Pike green keystone on those signs, that would be really cool.

storm2k:

--- Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2021, 02:20:16 PM ---
--- Quote from: Alps on August 30, 2021, 12:39:49 AM ---1. If you look at the most recent signs, the arrows and formatting have changed to substantial conformance with the MUTCD.
2. The MUTCD does not dictate striping lengths. It gives approximate ratios but does not require anything in particular. And yes, gore points used to be filled in for visibility. Many agencies use hatching now.

--- End quote ---

Nice that the "old school" New Jersey Turnpike sign designs were used southbound and northbound approaching Exit 6 - they are presumably going to be with us for a long time to come.  I am not a huge fan of the design, but I like its unique attributes not seen on other freeways in the United States.

Now if someone could convince the NJTA to use the Penn Pike green keystone on those signs, that would be really cool.

--- End quote ---

The PTC doesn't really use it on overheads either, so I'm fine with it as is.

famartin:

--- Quote from: storm2k on August 30, 2021, 06:37:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2021, 02:20:16 PM ---
--- Quote from: Alps on August 30, 2021, 12:39:49 AM ---1. If you look at the most recent signs, the arrows and formatting have changed to substantial conformance with the MUTCD.
2. The MUTCD does not dictate striping lengths. It gives approximate ratios but does not require anything in particular. And yes, gore points used to be filled in for visibility. Many agencies use hatching now.

--- End quote ---

Nice that the "old school" New Jersey Turnpike sign designs were used southbound and northbound approaching Exit 6 - they are presumably going to be with us for a long time to come.  I am not a huge fan of the design, but I like its unique attributes not seen on other freeways in the United States.

Now if someone could convince the NJTA to use the Penn Pike green keystone on those signs, that would be really cool.

--- End quote ---

The PTC doesn't really use it on overheads either, so I'm fine with it as is.

--- End quote ---

PTC might not routinely once ON the turnpike, but PennDOT uses it on approaches:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.081209,-75.3868005,3a,75y,287.95h,85.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv9pRpRf07SFSj2i_bP9moA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1006581,-75.2911769,3a,75y,32.71h,85.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siiiRMSTlKfl8lQivVWl9DQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1273529,-74.8781353,3a,75y,283.08h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svCsdyC8QRssX6Nhq15_vkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4856695,-75.6786006,3a,75y,186.85h,93.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snhtC0_cPNE1GY5FbRABp6Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2188894,-79.6030612,3a,75y,67.6h,89.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw7SrUY4b7RU3oqa0pYCkoA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dw7SrUY4b7RU3oqa0pYCkoA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D134.7227%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I could go on...

jeffandnicole:

--- Quote from: famartin on September 07, 2021, 02:10:16 AM ---
--- Quote from: storm2k on August 30, 2021, 06:37:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2021, 02:20:16 PM ---
--- Quote from: Alps on August 30, 2021, 12:39:49 AM ---1. If you look at the most recent signs, the arrows and formatting have changed to substantial conformance with the MUTCD.
2. The MUTCD does not dictate striping lengths. It gives approximate ratios but does not require anything in particular. And yes, gore points used to be filled in for visibility. Many agencies use hatching now.

--- End quote ---

Nice that the "old school" New Jersey Turnpike sign designs were used southbound and northbound approaching Exit 6 - they are presumably going to be with us for a long time to come.  I am not a huge fan of the design, but I like its unique attributes not seen on other freeways in the United States.

Now if someone could convince the NJTA to use the Penn Pike green keystone on those signs, that would be really cool.

--- End quote ---

The PTC doesn't really use it on overheads either, so I'm fine with it as is.

--- End quote ---

PTC might not routinely once ON the turnpike, but PennDOT uses it on approaches:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.081209,-75.3868005,3a,75y,287.95h,85.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv9pRpRf07SFSj2i_bP9moA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1006581,-75.2911769,3a,75y,32.71h,85.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siiiRMSTlKfl8lQivVWl9DQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1273529,-74.8781353,3a,75y,283.08h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svCsdyC8QRssX6Nhq15_vkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4856695,-75.6786006,3a,75y,186.85h,93.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snhtC0_cPNE1GY5FbRABp6Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2188894,-79.6030612,3a,75y,67.6h,89.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw7SrUY4b7RU3oqa0pYCkoA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dw7SrUY4b7RU3oqa0pYCkoA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D134.7227%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I could go on...

--- End quote ---

What's with the inconsistent application though?  It appears the newer keystones use green backgrounds, versus white backgrounds on older keystones, at least in these GSVs.

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