Virginia

[froggie]

I see an ALT US 60 is designated along part of US 460 and VA 168. Is that official or an implied designation?

A bit of both.  It's intended to direct WB 60 traffic along better routes towards 64 since one cannot (for years) make a direct left turn from Ocean View to 4th View, and to reduce the amount of through traffic using Mason Creek Rd.

That designation, BTW, is older than this forum.  It existed when I was stationed in Norfolk my FIRST time.

Also I see they took down the EB overhead on Ocean View at Tidewater but left the one opposite at Ocean View at 4th View up.  The one removed is needed and the one still standing is not.  Great logic!  Why not transfer the mast arm and add the needed signs?

EB overhead was taken down when the overpass was closed for a stretch some years ago due to its poor condition (since reopened after emergency repairs were made).  IMO, neither overhead is needed.

Also how old, does anyone know, is the Little Creek Road SPUI at Tidewater Drive in Wards Corner is?

Per NBI, the bridge was built in 1959.  Whether it's actually operated as a single intersection since that time, however, is harder to say.

[sprjus4]

^

With the overpass at Ocean View now demolished, I wish they would reconfigure the intersection back to a traditional design to simply allow left turns from Ocean View to 4th View to access I-64 without having to cut down alternative routes.

[Mapmikey]

Also how old, does anyone know, is the Little Creek Road SPUI at Tidewater Drive in Wards Corner is?

Per NBI, the bridge was built in 1959.  Whether it's actually operated as a single intersection since that time, however, is harder to say.

Historic Aerials are too fuzzy to definitively say whether this has always been a single intersection.  In one older one it appears there is a median on Little Creek and a left turn lane on the bridge.

It also appears the ramps from VA 168 could only turn right originally, but I cannot say for certain though the signage in the 2001 photo (sign much older than that) - https://www.aaroads.com/guides/va-168/ (next to last photo) suggests this may have been true.

Despite my using a grocery store very close to this intersection in 1991, I do not remember how this was set up then, but do recall thinking the Hampton Roads Pkwy SPUI was the first one I'd ever remembered seeing.

If a SPUI requires that both ramps can turn left at the same time, then this is not a SPUI as each ramp gets its own left turn phase.

[froggie]

^

With the overpass at Ocean View now demolished, I wish they would reconfigure the intersection back to a traditional design to simply allow left turns from Ocean View to 4th View to access I-64 without having to cut down alternative routes.

Was this recently?  The overpass was still open in 2019.

How (if at all) is eastbound 60 signed now?  Tidewater to Mason Creek?

[1995hoo]

Looking at that area on Street View revealed this monstrosity: https://goo.gl/maps/HxmQSaLtR9dv6d5h9

[sprjus4]

It was closed and demolished this past summer. The at-grade intersection provides continuity for Ocean View traffic, though still keeps the same restrictive movement for westbound traffic, forcing Tidewater traffic onto 4th View St to I-64, and Ocean View traffic on Tidewater.

US-60 East is still on the same route it was before, just at-grade instead of on an overpass. I've never thought about it or looked until now... how is US-60 West signed through this area to provide full continuity?

New intersection to replace West Ocean View Avenue flyover

NORFOLK, Va. - An at-grade, signalized intersection is due to replace the W. Ocean View Avenue flyover located at Tidewater Drive.

The flyover is due to close on Wednesday, July 15, 2020. It is fixable, but would require a remarkable reclamation project to extend its service life, according to the City of Norfolk.

The new intersection will have improved safety, pedestrian and bicycle accessibility, and context-sensitivity. In the new configuration, eastbound W. Ocean View Avenue traffic between 4th View Street and Mason Creek Road will pass straight through the new signalized intersection with Tidewater Drive.

The separation will be maintained between Tidewater Drive traffic to 4th View Street and westbound W. Ocean View Avenue traffic to Willoughby Spit.

Demolition of the flyover is scheduled to take place from Tuesday, July 21 through Sunday, July 26, 2020.

[hbelkins]

Looking at that area on Street View revealed this monstrosity: https://goo.gl/maps/HxmQSaLtR9dv6d5h9

That whole region is an "odd sign" geek's dream (or nightmare, if you prefer.)

[1995hoo]

Looking at that area on Street View revealed this monstrosity: https://goo.gl/maps/HxmQSaLtR9dv6d5h9

That whole region is an "odd sign" geek's dream (or nightmare, if you prefer.)

So I understand (and have seen in photos on this forum). I haven't been to Norfolk since the late 1990s or Virginia Beach since 1991. I last passed through the area on I-664 on my way to Edenton, North Carolina, in 2006, but didn't see anything too interesting.

[Mapmikey]

In 1991 Virginia Beach had lots of circles.  Norfolk's signage was really good then.

These days, most of the retched shields are in Norfolk proper and not on the freeways.  Portsmouth and Chesapeake have generally had correct shields but not enough of them on some of the state routes.

[froggie]

US-60 East is still on the same route it was before, just at-grade instead of on an overpass. I've never thought about it or looked until now... how is US-60 West signed through this area to provide full continuity?

Although Mason Creek Rd is not officially part of US 60, there have been "TO US 60 WEST" trailblazers on WB Ocean View at Mason Creek for years, since the separation scheme for Ocean View and Tidewater at 4th View went into effect.  There is also the aforementioned "WB ALT US 60" signed along Granby and Tidewater.

[sprjus4]

US-60 East is still on the same route it was before, just at-grade instead of on an overpass. I've never thought about it or looked until now... how is US-60 West signed through this area to provide full continuity?

Although Mason Creek Rd is not officially part of US 60, there have been "TO US 60 WEST" trailblazers on WB Ocean View at Mason Creek for years, since the separation scheme for Ocean View and Tidewater at 4th View went into effect.  There is also the aforementioned "WB ALT US 60" signed along Granby and Tidewater.

So where does the official routing go now that the separation was put into place 10-15 years ago? Or is it simply an official gap in the system?

Another question... what exactly was the intent for the separation?

[Mapmikey]

US-60 East is still on the same route it was before, just at-grade instead of on an overpass. I've never thought about it or looked until now... how is US-60 West signed through this area to provide full continuity?

Although Mason Creek Rd is not officially part of US 60, there have been "TO US 60 WEST" trailblazers on WB Ocean View at Mason Creek for years, since the separation scheme for Ocean View and Tidewater at 4th View went into effect.  There is also the aforementioned "WB ALT US 60" signed along Granby and Tidewater.

So where does the official routing go now that the separation was put into place 10-15 years ago? Or is it simply an official gap in the system?

Another question... what exactly was the intent for the separation?

Asking the question "what is the official route of X" in any independent city in Virginia is a tricky proposition.  Ever since they changed how money is allocated to Independent Cities, it has no longer been necessary to explicitly and accurately define what streets primary routes use within city limits.  Routes in several cities have had their posted alignments changed with nary a mention in AASHTO or the CTB.  Are those "official"?  Who knows...

The 2019 traffic log shows US 60 on 4th View then Ocean View all the way.  No mention of 60 ALT or 60P on Mason Creek.

What do you mean by "separation"?  Splitting of US 60 or splitting of Ocean View to prevent left turns onto 4th View (and conversely Tidewater Dr cannot go past 4th View onto Ocean View - they also have to use Mason Creek to do this).

The US 60 separation is because of the separation of Ocean View.

The signed change in US 60 occurred in summer 2004 (direct observation e-mailed to me at the time by Froggie).

2003 AADTs:
4th View: 12000
Tidewater Dr: 6500
Ocean View E of Tidewater: 15000
Ocean View W of 4th View: 7400

2019 AADT:
4th View: 12000
Tidewater Dr: 8900
Ocean View E of Tidewater: 14000
Ocean View W of 4th View: 5600

Mason Creek Rd is not on Norfolk traffic data reports then or now.

These don't seem all that high to me but these are possibilities:

Too many wrecks with weaving traffic:  VA 168 wanting to go to Willoughby Split vs. Ocean View Ave wanting to go to 4th View
Too much traffic going through Willoughby Spit, so make it harder for some of the traffic to do that
Backups on Ocean View WB/Tidewater Dr NB because of the weaving
Backups on I-64 from frequent HRBT issues spilled over onto 4th View and Ocean View/Tidewater Dr making it impossible for Willoughby Spit residents to get home

I left the area in 1992 so I have no insight on conditions of the time (I don't personally ever remembering getting stuck there).

It seems to me that putting a signalized intersection where the overpass would prevent the two weaving issues from happening, so there could be more to it than that.

The City of Norfolk project page gives no information n why the traffic pattern needs to remain the same at 4th View/Ocean View

[sprjus4]

What do you mean by "separation"?  Splitting of US 60 or splitting of Ocean View to prevent left turns onto 4th View (and conversely Tidewater Dr cannot go past 4th View onto Ocean View - they also have to use Mason Creek to do this).

Yes, because one following US-60 West cannot follow Ocean View then turn left onto 4th View, which is the route US-60 officially follows. You must use other cutover routes such as Mason Creek, Granby St, or simply follow Ocean View down to I-64 / US-60 just before the HRBT to merge with it. Either one, you are leaving US-60 for a period.

Too many wrecks with weaving traffic:  VA 168 wanting to go to Willoughby Split vs. Ocean View Ave wanting to go to 4th View

Questionable, given 2002 imagery shows a signal that alternates between Tidewater traffic and Ocean View traffic, so weaving would not have existed.

Too much traffic going through Willoughby Spit, so make it harder for some of the traffic to do that

Likely the main culprit.

It seems to me that putting a signalized intersection where the overpass would prevent the two weaving issues from happening, so there could be more to it than that.

Agreed. With the intersection now being fully signalized, it would've simply made sense to make it a traditional three-way signalized intersection without any restrictions on turns. No clue otherwise.

[deathtopumpkins]

Having lived in the area at the time, the stated reason I heard was to deter use of Ocean View on Willoughby Spit to get around HRBT backups. Tidewater Dr is a fairly convenient alternative to 64, so you'd get a lot of traffic that wanted to wait to re-enter 64 until as late as possible, clogging up Willoughby Spit out to 15th View. Most traffic coming west on Ocean View, on the other hand, originated along that corridor rather than bailing off 64.

This change also coincided with the closing of the 15th View onramp when the HRBT is congested, so it made sense to discourage drivers from even getting to the ramp in the first place. You know some would find the ramp closed, not want to U-turn and drive back to 4th View, and try to drive around the gates or something. You can even see multiple cars U-turning in front of the gate in streetview: https://goo.gl/maps/unWgfM8m8znFhbRD8

Weaving wasn't the reason, discouraging spillover traffic from 64 from going through Willoughby Spit was.

[Mapmikey]

What do you mean by "separation"?  Splitting of US 60 or splitting of Ocean View to prevent left turns onto 4th View (and conversely Tidewater Dr cannot go past 4th View onto Ocean View - they also have to use Mason Creek to do this).

Yes, because one following US-60 West cannot follow Ocean View then turn left onto 4th View, which is the route US-60 officially follows. You must use other cutover routes such as Mason Creek, Granby St, or simply follow Ocean View down to I-64 / US-60 just before the HRBT to merge with it. Either one, you are leaving US-60 for a period.

Since Ocean View west of 4th is still US 60P, one could argue you are still on US 60 if you just stay west on Ocean View all the way to the HRBT.

But should you not buy into that, there are other Virginia examples of this:

US 33/VA 33 EB cannot follow the route in Richmond due to no left turn possible.  The workaround is quasi-posted
VA 131 cannot be driven west/northbound everywhere due to a short one-way segment eastbound.  There is no posted workaround (and VA 131 is poorly posted anyway) though a simple one exists
Two state facility routes have one-way segments with no opposite direction possible: 393 and 399

I didn't remember the separate signals for US 60 WB and VA 168 NB and aerials are horrible for anything older than 2002 to see when that became the configuration.

[froggie]

Having lived in the area at the time, the stated reason I heard was to deter use of Ocean View on Willoughby Spit to get around HRBT backups.

Correct.  A byproduct of drivers trying to queue-jump the HRBT backup was that the congestion made it a lot harder for Willougby Spit residents and first responders to get to/from the Spit.  Since the change (which I was stationed in Norfolk at the time and saw firsthand), that largely went away, since HRBT-bound traffic can queue along what is largely a limited-access Tidewater Dr and not jam up those using Ocean View to get to the Spit.  Meanwhile, those trying to get to the residential areas sandwiched between the Naval Base and 64 can take 1st View (which has an underpass under 64).

[tolbs17]

It was closed and demolished this past summer. The at-grade intersection provides continuity for Ocean View traffic, though still keeps the same restrictive movement for westbound traffic, forcing Tidewater traffic onto 4th View St to I-64, and Ocean View traffic on Tidewater.

US-60 East is still on the same route it was before, just at-grade instead of on an overpass. I've never thought about it or looked until now... how is US-60 West signed through this area to provide full continuity?

New intersection to replace West Ocean View Avenue flyover

NORFOLK, Va. - An at-grade, signalized intersection is due to replace the W. Ocean View Avenue flyover located at Tidewater Drive.

The flyover is due to close on Wednesday, July 15, 2020. It is fixable, but would require a remarkable reclamation project to extend its service life, according to the City of Norfolk.

The new intersection will have improved safety, pedestrian and bicycle accessibility, and context-sensitivity. In the new configuration, eastbound W. Ocean View Avenue traffic between 4th View Street and Mason Creek Road will pass straight through the new signalized intersection with Tidewater Drive.

The separation will be maintained between Tidewater Drive traffic to 4th View Street and westbound W. Ocean View Avenue traffic to Willoughby Spit.

Demolition of the flyover is scheduled to take place from Tuesday, July 21 through Sunday, July 26, 2020.

I hate those type of super streets really. I wish they made one where you can turn right and make a u-turn.

[froggie]

^ If you're referring to the U-turn just south of the intersection, I'm not really sure what the purpose of that is.  But given it's location, I can say with certainty that it has nothing to do with the superstreet concept as you claim.

[1995hoo]

^ If you're referring to the U-turn just south of the intersection, I'm not really sure what the purpose of that is.  But given it's location, I can say with certainty that it has nothing to do with the superstreet concept as you claim.

Those other median cuts along Ocean View don't appear to be related to a superstreet concept either, at least not in the usual sense of that term, based on a look at Google Maps–they appear to be exits from the two beach parking areas along there.

[froggie]

^ From personal experience, that is correct.  Those are access points to/from the parking lots.

[deathtopumpkins]

I wonder if the U-turn is provided because Norfolk is planning to ban left turns from Tidewater northbound at Mason Creek. It would make sense due to the intersection geometry.

[amroad17]

About damn time. That gives me a headache when driving on that section.

Also, why isn't I-64 signed WEST or EAST on that segment?

Because "westbound" I-64 goes east and "eastbound" I-64 goes west. Take a look at a map. It's sort of like a fishhook around Norfolk.

About damn time. That gives me a headache when driving on that section.

Also, why isn't I-64 signed WEST or EAST on that segment?

The directions aren't signed south of I-264 (with a few exceptions - including new signage Chesapeake recently put on the Dominion Blvd project) to avoid confusion with cardinal direction. Because Interstate 64 does almost a loop through the area, south of I-264, a motorist traveling in the west direction towards Suffolk is actually heading on I-64 East, and vice versa.

It's still referred though as "East" and "West" in official reports, with the direction corresponding to the official direction (I-64 East is going west to Suffolk, I-64 West is going east to Va Beach), not cardinal direction.

I would fix those numbers and take I-64 to Va beach.

That's been a recurring proposal for years now, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.

Besides, those who live there (or used to live there) are used to I-64 not having cardinal directions in Chesapeake and Va. Beach.  The INNER and OUTER Beltway signs suffice.

Back in the 1980's, cardinal directions of EAST and WEST were tried on I-64, however, that did not last long due to "motorist confusion".  I have advocated before, not that it will ever occur, that I-64 could have been signed NORTH-SOUTH from Bowers Hill to I-264 in Norfolk, following the old Bypass US 13 cardinal directions (NORTH toward Va. Beach and SOUTH toward Suffolk).  I mean this occurs on I-69 around Lansing, MI., why not there?

[sprjus4]

It still makes me wonder why the city of Chesapeake decided to post "East" and "West" cardinal directions on the recently completed US-17 Dominion Blvd expansion on the approaches to the Oak Grove Interchange.

I've personally accustomed myself to "East" being west towards Bowers Hill and "West" being east towards Virginia Beach, which are the official directions. When you think of the overall westward trajectory of the highway towards Richmond, it makes sense.

[amroad17]

It does make sense--overall.  However, a majority of the motorists are locals.  Having cardinal directions going opposite of what they are supposed to is bound to confuse many of the motorists ("Why does this say WEST when I am headed East?").  That is why there weren't any cardinal directions posted, until the ones on the BGS's at the Oak Grove interchange.

[amroad17]

I thought US 60 WEST was officially routed on Mason Creek to Tidewater to 4th View.  Or is it a case of Norfolk being lazy and half-assed with the signage?