OR-217 and US-26 observations

[Sd_fan2119]

I recently moved out to Beaverton, and noticed some oddly-marked signs for 217 and 26. First of all, I notice that all the signs directing to US-26 west on 217 have coastal cities and not one of them mentions Hillsboro. Since US-26 is the primary route to Hillsboro from the south, I found this quite odd. I believe the last US-26 W signs on 217 say "Seaside/Tillamook" then once you're on US-26 W, one says "Tillamook/Astoria". It makes sense that these coastal cities are marked since US-26 is not only the route from Portland-Seaside but is also the quickest way to Astoria and also goes to Tillamook via OR-6, but I find it strange that ODOT marks all these smaller coastal cities while omitting Hillsboro, a town of 90,000. What would seem to make the most sense from 217 would be a sign marked "Hillsboro/Ocean Beaches" (I believe there is actually one of these signs, but further down US-26 W). Hillsboro is a big enough city where it should even be marked on the OR-217 Exit off I-5 that currently reads "Tigard/Beaverton" since 217/26 is by far the quickest route to Hillsboro from the South.

[tdindy88]

I drove this way a few years back when I took US 26 from Portland to Cannon Beach and saw the same thing. I did see that Beaverton was the control city from the Center City of Portland west to I guess OR 217. As for Hillsboro, my guess would be that since it is part of the metropolitan area that warrents it from not being mentioned (since is a part of the larger Portland area.) If I recall I don't think I ever saw any signs indicating Gresham as control city either and that community has more people than Hillsboro. Of course The Dalles is signed and it has only 12,000 people, so the population of a city isn't too important to ODOT. Not signing suburban communities is very common in most metropolitan areas around the country though, so just the mention of Beaverton or Tigard would be more than many metros could hope for.

[sp_redelectric]

I notice that all the signs directing to US-26 west on 217 have coastal cities and not one of them mentions Hillsboro. Since US-26 is the primary route to Hillsboro from the south

I'm not sure I would say that the Sunset is "the primary route" to Hillsboro.  Just as Gresham (which is larger than Hillsboro) is not a control city on I-84; and in fact only recently (and due to political wrangling) were a number of signs installed on I-84 pointing out Gresham exits and Gresham's city limit - the Sunset forms a tiny portion of Hillsboro's extreme northeastern city line.  More people use T.V. Highway to get to Hillsboro than the Sunset as T.V. Highway is more direct (albeit more congested and with traffic lights seemingly every five seconds).

I also believe ODOT has stopped the use of "Ocean Beaches" as a control city and is now using an actual city - thus Tillamook or Seaside or Astoria.

That said - ODOT seems to use Seaside and Astoria interchangeably (just watch the signs starting at Canyon Road on 217, where the signs read "Seaside" - once you're on 26 the signs read "Astoria"); ODOT ignores Lake Oswego and insists the control city for 217 south is Salem (30 miles south of the southern end of 217); ODOT actually installs signs on Greenburg Road telling you that Tigard is on I-5 (why get onto the freeway, just to get off the freeway and end back on Greenburg Road as it turns into Main Street in downtown Tigard?)......  I do like what ODOT has done at Canyon Road by eliminating the control cities and simply using "Oregon 217 to U.S. 26" or "Oregon 217 to I-5"

[sp_redelectric]

Of course The Dalles is signed and it has only 12,000 people

I never really understood this.  At one time on I-80, the exit for I-84 was signed "Ogden/Portland".  UDOT has since removed Portland...  IMO there are plenty of signs installed by ODOT that use Seattle as a control city; Boise or Ogden or Salt Lake City would make for a much better control city on I-84 than The Dalles.

Then again...Oregon City is now the new control city for I-205 at its southern junction with I-5...

[Bickendan]

In essence, there's no easy or direct way to get to downtown Hillsboro from US 26, so there's no point to using Hillsboro as a control city.

If taking the Sunset, you'd have to get off at 185th, Cornelius Pass or Helvetia and get onto Cornell, and it's still about a five mile jaunt from the freeway. If you take Jackson Park in, the distance is even longer, though more 'direct' from the freeway.

As for I-84's control cities, bear in mind that the 'big' cities along the route are Portland, Pendleton, Boise and Ogden. There's a lot of distance between them, with both Hood River and The Dalles as decent sized (if smaller) cities between Portland and Pendleton. Between Pendleton and Boise, you have La Grande and Ontario. Between Boise and Ogden, the bigger cities aren't immediately on the freeway (Twin Falls) or are along the duplex with I-15 (Tremonton and Brigham City) and thus part of the greater Wasatch metro area.

If The Dalles is getting signed absurdly far from where it is (say, east of Boise to be generous), yeah, that's strange.

[sp_redelectric]

I still don't understand The Dalles for I-84 - when you have examples such as in Klamath Falls:



where San Francisco is over 350 miles away, or Reno over 250 miles away.

Or Spokane as the control city for I-90 in Seattle (280 miles):




Or, Cheyenne as I-80 east at the end of I-84 in Echo Canyon (over 390 miles)



And finally, Seattle on SR 26 in Colfax, Washington (270 miles)



(all photos above not my own)

Portland to Boise is about 430 miles so it'd be definitely the highest - but considering that between Portland and Boise, the next largest population cities are either Hermiston or Pendleton, both with about 16,700 residents each, then The Dalles with 14,500, La Grande with just over 13,000, and Ontario with 11,375.  Baker City is a hair under 10,000.

[agentsteel53]

some of those photos belong in the Best of Road Signs.

the '61 spec US-97 pair in Oregon... and what looks to be a button copy sign on I-5 southbound in Seattle?  I didn't notice that one two weeks ago, but I was driving that section northbound and in fairly heavy traffic, so I didn't have my full attention span.

[Alex]

(all photos above not my own)

Forum members are always welcome to post photos from the parent AARoads web site here.

some of those photos belong in the Best of Road Signs.

the '61 spec US-97 pair in Oregon... and what looks to be a button copy sign on I-5 southbound in Seattle?  I didn't notice that one two weeks ago, but I was driving that section northbound and in fairly heavy traffic, so I didn't have my full attention span.

Probably the camera flash caught the reflectivity making the panels appear as button copy. Another photo of the same set:

[agentsteel53]

Probably the camera flash caught the reflectivity making the panels appear as button copy.

looks like the sign has a non-reflective background, and a legend made of reflective tape elements individually assembled on.

[Kacie Jane]

Probably the camera flash caught the reflectivity making the panels appear as button copy.

looks like the sign has a non-reflective background, and a legend made of reflective tape elements individually assembled on.

Pass by that sign far too often; definitely not button copy.  Jake probably nailed it.

[myosh_tino]

where San Francisco is over 350 miles away, or Reno over 250 miles away.

I can understand why San Francisco shows up on the US 97 sign since it's a pretty significant destination (via US 97, I-5, I-505 and I-80) although Sacramento could be equally appropriate.  Reno, on the other hand took more thinking.  Looking at a map, the only sensible route to Reno from Klamath Falls is OR-39 which becomes CA-139 to US 395 in Susanville so I guess Reno is OK but on first glance it's certainly a head-scratcher.

[xonhulu]

I can understand why San Francisco shows up on the US 97 sign since it's a pretty significant destination (via US 97, I-5, I-505 and I-80) although Sacramento could be equally appropriate.  Reno, on the other hand took more thinking.  Looking at a map, the only sensible route to Reno from Klamath Falls is OR-39 which becomes CA-139 to US 395 in Susanville so I guess Reno is OK but on first glance it's certainly a head-scratcher.

I believe Reno is also signed as a control city (along with Lakeview) at OR 31's junction with US 97 south of La Pine; even though Alturas and Susanville are closer, ODOT must not consider them significant enough destinations to include them.

[bookem]

I always have to chuckle whenever I see the US 97 sign listing San Fran as a control city rather than Redding or Sacramento.... not to snark on Klamath Falls or anything, but it's like this relatively small town is saying "Look at us! We're the gateway to one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the country!"

Speaking of wonky control cities, I-82 offers easy access to Seattle, Spokane, Tri-Cities and Yakima from I-84, yet the control cities from I-84 eb are..... Hermiston and Umatilla.

[xonhulu]

Come on: if you're taking I-82 from I-84, you have to be going to either Hermiston or Umatilla.  Why would anyone want to leave Oregon?

[sp_redelectric]

Come on: if you're taking I-82 from I-84, you have to be going to either Hermiston or Umatilla.  Why would anyone want to leave Oregon?

Eastbound.  If you're going Westbound the control cities are Umatilla or Kennewick (but let's forget about Pasco, Richland or Yakima.)

One would think eastbound Spokane should be included (via U.S. 395) and westbound Seattle should be included (via I-82/I-90).

Speaking of that area, I always thought it was classy of WSDOT to include an Oregon 11 shield on the sign for the SR 125 exit off of U.S. 12 in Walla Walla.  I wish ODOT would do the same for SR 432 in Rainier (the Lewis & Clark Bridge)...I guess we'll have to settle for the ODOT spec SR 14 exit sign on the Glenn Jackson Bridge.

[xonhulu]

Come on: if you're taking I-82 from I-84, you have to be going to either Hermiston or Umatilla.  Why would anyone want to leave Oregon?

Eastbound.  If you're going Westbound the control cities are Umatilla or Kennewick (but let's forget about Pasco, Richland or Yakima.)

One would think eastbound Spokane should be included (via U.S. 395) and westbound Seattle should be included (via I-82/I-90).

I was being facetious in my earlier post.  I actually agree with you completely, Umatilla and Hermiston are silly choices as main control cities (they should be on secondary signage, though), and "Tri-Cities" should be used instead of Kennewick.  In fact, here's how I'd sign the I-82 exit in each direction:

From eastbound I-84:  Primary control cities: Tri-Cities/Spokane   Secondary control cities: Hermiston/Umatilla

From westbound I-84:  Primary control cities: Tri-Cities/Seattle     Secondary control cities: Umatilla/Yakima

However, if ODOT objects to the use of "Tri-Cities" because the term might not be familiar to non-locals, they could help alleviate that by putting up one of their graphic map signs, or just list all 3 cities.

Speaking of that area, I always thought it was classy of WSDOT to include an Oregon 11 shield on the sign for the SR 125 exit off of U.S. 12 in Walla Walla.  I wish ODOT would do the same for SR 432 in Rainier (the Lewis & Clark Bridge)...I guess we'll have to settle for the ODOT spec SR 14 exit sign on the Glenn Jackson Bridge.

Did you actually mean SR 433?  Either way, I'm not sure why there's a need to include them, as neither SR 433 or 432 are significant routes that a traveler would be looking for.  If anything, Oregon's signage should include for sure "TO I-5" and maybe "TO WA 4" -- the latter only from westbound US 30, though, and even then you could argue if you're headed to the Long Beach area you'd be better off staying on US 30.

In general, Oregon's stingy about acknowledging destinations or routes in other states.  The only major times they accommodated  routes in other states was their collaboration with Nevada on MSR 140, and when Oregon renumbered old OR 90 to OR 52 to make it a continuation of ID 52 back in the 1950's.  This was especially odd since, at the time, there was already an OR 52 that had to be changed to a western extension of OR 216 to free up the designation.

[sp_redelectric]

I was being facetious in my earlier post.  I actually agree with you completely, Umatilla and Hermiston are silly choices as main control cities (they should be on secondary signage, though), and "Tri-Cities" should be used instead of Kennewick.

That would be confusing - Kennewick is the closest to I-82, but isn't Pasco the largest; and Richland the most significant (at least in terms of the government - it's where Hanford is headquartered)?  Or - just let it be "Yakima/Seattle" with a secondary sign reading "Pasco/Richland/Kennewick", along with another secondary sign for "Hermiston/Umatilla"?

Did you actually mean SR 433?  Either way, I'm not sure why there's a need to include them, as neither SR 433 or 432 are significant routes that a traveler would be looking for.  If anything, Oregon's signage should include for sure "TO I-5" and maybe "TO WA 4" -- the latter only from westbound US 30, though, and even then you could argue if you're headed to the Long Beach area you'd be better off staying on US 30.

Yeah, you got me.  It's a 430 something and you're right - the route number itself isn't important.  Heck, just call it "US 30 Spur" or "US 930" or something.  But "To Interstate 5" would probably be sufficient - just as WSDOT installs "To US 30 Oregon" signs on their side of the river.

In general, Oregon's stingy about acknowledging destinations or routes in other states.  The only major times they accommodated  routes in other states was their collaboration with Nevada on MSR 140, and when Oregon renumbered old OR 90 to OR 52 to make it a continuation of ID 52 back in the 1950's.  This was especially odd since, at the time, there was already an OR 52 that had to be changed to a western extension of OR 216 to free up the designation.

At least with Oregon there aren't too many places where a state route crosses a state line to another state route - on the Columbia River they are all U.S. or Interstate routes; further east there is Oregon 11/Washington 125 and Oregon 3/Washington 129.  You mentioned Oregon 52 - I'm surprised ODOT went to the hassle, given that it's length in Oregon is 1.7 miles long.  If it were me, I'd keep whatever hidden route and just install "TO Idaho 52" signs.  One of the few times Oregon's dual numbering system actually makes sense...

[xonhulu]

That would be confusing - Kennewick is the closest to I-82, but isn't Pasco the largest; and Richland the most significant (at least in terms of the government - it's where Hanford is headquartered)?  Or - just let it be "Yakima/Seattle" with a secondary sign reading "Pasco/Richland/Kennewick", along with another secondary sign for "Hermiston/Umatilla"?

I'm pretty sure Kennewick is the largest of the three, followed by Pasco, then Richland.  It's arguable which is the most "important."  But I agree the term "Tri-Cities" might be a little confusing, and as it probably isn't the destination for most travelers heading either eastbound or westbound, you're probably right in suggesting it be relegated to secondary signage.  However, the Tri-Cities are larger and a more likely destination than Yakima, especially for eastbound traffic, who probably would've exited I-84 back at Biggs Junction if they were headed to Yakima.

Yeah, you got me.  It's a 430 something and you're right - the route number itself isn't important.  Heck, just call it "US 30 Spur" or "US 930" or something.  But "To Interstate 5" would probably be sufficient - just as WSDOT installs "To US 30 Oregon" signs on their side of the river.

There definitely should be some signage mentioning I-5 in Oregon.

At least with Oregon there aren't too many places where a state route crosses a state line to another state route - on the Columbia River they are all U.S. or Interstate routes; further east there is Oregon 11/Washington 125 and Oregon 3/Washington 129.  You mentioned Oregon 52 - I'm surprised ODOT went to the hassle, given that it's length in Oregon is 1.7 miles long.  If it were me, I'd keep whatever hidden route and just install "TO Idaho 52" signs.  One of the few times Oregon's dual numbering system actually makes sense...

Interestingly, in Washington's old route numbering system, what is now WA 129 was part of PSH 3, so its number matched OR 3 at one time.

Even though its motivation was silly, I like OR 52.  It just seems funny that ODOT goes to all this trouble to direct you to the 1.7 mile OR 52 while making no mention of its Idaho counterpart:

[sp_redelectric]

Is it just me, or is the use of Series E on those signs just god-awful?  Oregon is usually pretty good about making the appropriate series for a sign...but those look like they belong on a warning sign.

Montana is also notorious for doing that...

That first photograph - you don't see that too often in Oregon anymore.  I'm thinking an Idaho contractor did that.

[Sd_fan2119]

I saw that 97/39 sign in K-Falls a few months back and was a little shocked at first to see Reno and SF marked on here...but in reality there really isn't much between Klamath Falls and either of these cities, so it is likely much of the traffic on OR-39 is going to Reno and that on US-97 is going toward the Bay Area or further south in California. I've also heard that taking OR-58 to US-97 and reconnecting with I-5 in Weed is a popular route for truckers during the winter as it avoids the steep grades of the Siskiyou Pass, so this could be another reason SF is marked on the sign. ODOT could actually mark "US-97 to I-5" since the majority of traffic on this section of US-97 is headed toward I-5, similar to how I-5 is marked on US-199 in Crescent City with Grants Pass marked. Susanville could also be marked as a destination on the OR-39 sign.

[xonhulu]

I've also heard that taking OR-58 to US-97 and reconnecting with I-5 in Weed is a popular route for truckers during the winter as it avoids the steep grades of the Siskiyou Pass, so this could be another reason SF is marked on the sign.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

[Sd_fan2119]

"I believe Reno is also signed as a control city (along with Lakeview) at OR 31's junction with US 97 south of La Pine; even though Alturas and Susanville are closer, ODOT must not consider them significant enough destinations to include them."

I remember seein that too...the interesting thing is that going US-97 to OR-39 and CA-139 etc. (going through K-Falls) is a much faster route to Reno from the 31/97 junction than actually going on OR-31 through Lakeview. I went on a trip from Redmond to Tahoe a while back (before I was more educated about highways) and we actually went US-20 all the way to US-395 S all the way to Reno....slow route but it was interesting to see how deserted the land was even just a little east and south of Bend.

[xonhulu]

Years ago, I gave my school's wrestling coach a ride down to Reno the day after Christmas to attend a tournament they were wrestling in.  While taking OR 31/US 395 down, I took a rock in the radiator and broke down in the bustling metropolis of Ravendale (pop. 1, as near as I can tell).  We ended up getting towed to Susanville, where he got picked up by one of his assistants coming up from Reno while I had to stay in town to see to my pickup's repair.  Needless to say, I'm not big on that route, either!

[kkt]

I'm pretty sure Kennewick is the largest of the three, followed by Pasco, then Richland.  It's arguable which is the most "important."

Perhaps it should be signed "Pasco/Tri-Cities": Tri-Cities for locals, and Pasco to be recognizable on a map for out-of-area folks and because it would fit on a sign the best. 

[Kacie Jane]

I'm pretty sure Kennewick is the largest of the three, followed by Pasco, then Richland.  It's arguable which is the most "important."

Perhaps it should be signed "Pasco/Tri-Cities": Tri-Cities for locals, and Pasco to be recognizable on a map for out-of-area folks and because it would fit on a sign the best. 

Which is essentially how it's signed at the I-90/US 395 split in Ritzville ( http://goo.gl/maps/czvHf ).  Just the advance signs, though; the signs at the exit only say Ritzville/Pasco.