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Started by Alex, August 18, 2009, 12:34:57 AM

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PHLBOS

Quote from: Duke87 on October 29, 2014, 12:38:10 AMIndeed, this is something I find annoying about the "step by step" directions generated by computers. They relay the most obvious steps with equal prominence to the most counterintuitive ones. It's as if they are written for mindless idiots who have no clue how to navigate and are just blindly following instructions or something.
They are and GPS navigational systems have further compounded the situation IMHO.

Then again, one needs to realize that not every driver out there is a road geek/enthusiast/historian nor a civil/transportation engineer.
GPS does NOT equal GOD


roadman65

On to something else speaking of the LIE.  I noticed that on Google maps that both the Queens- Midtown Tunnel and the LIRR East River Tunnels criss cross under the east shore of the East River.  Both the highway tubes and the rail tunnels cross paths with each other similar to the FDR Drive and the Brooklyn- Battery Tunnels do under the Staten Island Ferry Terminal in Manhattan.

I was wondering if anyone knows for sure which tunnels are on top and which ones are on the bottom?  I am guessing that the Railroad is on top because of the grade factor and that it was built first.  The Queens- Midtown was built in the late 40's decades after PRR built the rail under the river.  Trains as you know have to have a shallow grade over road vehicles so given where the portals of the rail tunnels located just to the north of the LIE just east of the Pulaski Bridge shows me that there is not enough distance for the LIRR to drop below the I-495 tunnels as well.

However, I cannot find any information on building designs for the underground tunnels and, of course, Google makes it all in one D so you cannot see which is higher and which is lower.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

cl94

Quote from: roadman65 on October 29, 2014, 08:36:10 AM
On to something else speaking of the LIE.  I noticed that on Google maps that both the Queens- Midtown Tunnel and the LIRR East River Tunnels criss cross under the east shore of the East River.  Both the highway tubes and the rail tunnels cross paths with each other similar to the FDR Drive and the Brooklyn- Battery Tunnels do under the Staten Island Ferry Terminal in Manhattan.

I was wondering if anyone knows for sure which tunnels are on top and which ones are on the bottom?  I am guessing that the Railroad is on top because of the grade factor and that it was built first.  The Queens- Midtown was built in the late 40's decades after PRR built the rail under the river.  Trains as you know have to have a shallow grade over road vehicles so given where the portals of the rail tunnels located just to the north of the LIE just east of the Pulaski Bridge shows me that there is not enough distance for the LIRR to drop below the I-495 tunnels as well.

However, I cannot find any information on building designs for the underground tunnels and, of course, Google makes it all in one D so you cannot see which is higher and which is lower.

Not necessarily. Closest rail portal is ~1/4 mile east of the Midtown Tunnel portal. Google doesn't show the exact location, either. I can tell you that the tunnels don't line up with the actual location on the Manhattan end, as the rail tunnels are directly under 32nd and 33rd Streets. Having been through the rail tunnels, I'm pretty sure that they actually run under the toll plaza and/or elevated section, mainly because they have to align with the Manhattan street grid (and I can tell you from construction pictures that they do).
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Duke87

#553
Indeed, this is just fuzzy map data on Google's part. The tunnels in real life do not cross. The Queens Midtown tunnel is rendered correctly. The rail tunnels, however, continue under 32nd and 33rd Streets to the East River, proceed diagonally under the river towards Long Island City terminal, and then more or less follow the route of the above ground tracks to the tunnel portals in Sunnyside yard. As you say, they cross under the toll plaza.

The 11th Street cut on the R train isn't shown correctly either. It joins the N/Q west of Silvercup Studios, not east.

Google often doesn't render the location of rail tunnels quite right since they can't determine it from their satellite imagery and don't have access or rights to detailed drawings that would show it better. They really only know where the stations are and have to guess as to what's in between. Sometimes they guess wrong.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

storm2k

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 27, 2014, 10:48:35 PM
I last heard someone refer to 495 as Route 3 in about 1980, but that doesn't mean no one says it.  The traffic reporters say "Bergen Viaduct" sometimes, but it is uncommon in everday conversation. 

I've always heard it called 495 (i.e., there's a 30 minute delay at the outbound Lincoln because of an accident on 495). The helix is the helix though.

cl94

Sad news from Niagara Falls: only one button copy sign remains on the North Grand Island Bridge (NB immediately after the toll booths). All button copy advance signs for Exit 21 have been replaced with Clearview.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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route17fan

Is the Welcome to CITY OF Niagara Falls button copy sign still there or has that been replaced too?
John Krakoff - Cleveland, Ohio

vdeane

There was a MASSIVE accident on the Northway this morning, so bad that it closed all but one lane and backed traffic up all the way to Clifton Park.  This just highlights the need for an alternate route that can be used in the event of an incident that stops traffic on the Northway, because right now there really isn't one.  I've tried two possible ones and can't think of a third.  The first I tried is to get off at exit 5 (6-5 is rarely bad due to the exit only lane, and I rarely know about congestion in advance of there since that's where I get on; it can be bypassed with Wade Rd, but this is not practical if you don't already live there due to the exit only lane and the fact that a left from NY 7 to Wade requires sitting at a three minute long traffic light), continue straight down the c/d road to 4, and meander to Wolf Rd.  Problem: clearing the Albany-Shaker Rd interchange requires sitting through no less than 4 traffic lights, potentially sitting through multiple cycles for each one.  The only other possible detour that doesn't go way out of the way is Old Niskayuna Rd (accessible from exit 5) to Maxwell Rd to Wolf Rd via Albany-Shaker Rd.  Problem: this morning it took me two cycles to get through the light at Old Niskayuna and Maxwell, and at least FIVE to make the left onto Wolf Rd.  Clearly, some detours need to be signed/built, with the traffic lights dynamically controlled to prioritize Northway traffic in the event of an incident.

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Crash-plugs-the-Northway-5872484.php#photo-7101536
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

froggie

This situation certainly speaks to the need for adaptive traffic signals.  IMO, New York is among the worst states for signal timing/progression.  But aside from that, alternatives are limited and not really cost-effective given that these situations remain (thankfully) fairly rare, all things considered.

vdeane

#559
Thankfully much of those issues will be resolved in the next decade with the Maxwell Rd extension (allowing traffic to bypass most of Wolf Rd) and the Exit 3/4 redesign that's coming up.  I've ended up attempting to bypass the Northway at least three other times in the morning this past six months and also a couple times in the evening; none of them nearly this bad, though.

Some election news: Elise Stefanic (R) beat out Aaron Wolfe (D) in the North Country's congressional race, which could have implications for any road improvements up there; Wolfe supported building I-98 but Stefanic wants traffic to stay on US 11.  Not that anything's likely to be done in the near term, but now it's even less likely.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Alps

Quote from: vdeane on November 06, 2014, 01:43:28 PM
Thankfully much of those issues will be resolved in the next decade with the Maxwell Rd extension (allowing traffic to bypass most of Wolf Rd) and the Exit 3/4 redesign that's coming up.  I've ended up attempting to bypass the Northway at least three other times in the morning this past six months and also a couple times in the evening; none of them nearly this bad, though.

Some election news: Elise Stefanic (R) beat out Aaron Wolfe (D) in the North Country's congressional race, which could have implications for any road improvements up there; Wolfe supported building I-98 but Stefanic wants traffic to stay on US 11.  Not that anything's likely to be done in the near term, but now it's even less likely.
How often do you have a (D) pro-highway and an (R) anti-highway?

02 Park Ave

Would the I-98 go as far east as the I-89 in Vermont?
C-o-H

cl94

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on November 06, 2014, 10:06:42 PM
Would the I-98 go as far east as the I-89 in Vermont?

Doubtful. Everything I've seen has it staying in New York. Northern New England could certainly use an Interstate to parallel US 2, though. Same thing with cancelled I-92 and US 4.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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froggie

QuoteNorthern New England could certainly use an Interstate to parallel US 2, though.  Same thing with cancelled I-92 and US 4.

Living here, I'd disagree.  There just isn't the population, traffic, or growth potential to justify the cost.

Alps

Quote from: froggie on November 07, 2014, 08:44:07 AM
QuoteNorthern New England could certainly use an Interstate to parallel US 2, though.  Same thing with cancelled I-92 and US 4.

Living here, I'd disagree.  There just isn't the population, traffic, or growth potential to justify the cost.

I-92/US 4, yes. It would also pull traffic off VT-NH 9. I-98/US 2, no.

D-Dey65

Quote from: Alps on November 06, 2014, 04:45:14 PM
How often do you have a (D) pro-highway and an (R) anti-highway?
I know. It's usually the opposite.

02 Park Ave

Does Stefanic think that ON 401 is adequate for the needs of the area?
C-o-H

cu2010

Stefanik is a relative outsider bought by special interests; she knows very little about this district.

Of course, Mr. Woolf is an outsider as well, so...
This is cu2010, reminding you, help control the ugly sign population, don't have your shields spayed or neutered.

froggie

QuoteI-92/US 4, yes. It would also pull traffic off VT-NH 9. I-98/US 2, no.

US 4 could use some improvement, yes...but there isn't enough here to justify a full-fledged Interstate.  Not for the cost required to plow over the Whites and adjacent ridges.

cl94

The I-98 debate has been going on in some form for decades. I'm assuming Stefanic was brought in by the small business owners in the towns along US 11, who believe that an expressway would reduce business [as if people don't already try and get around US 11...]. My counterargument is that I-98 would draw people from NY 37, ON 401, and A-20, actually increasing the amount of potential customers. If the Plattsburgh AFB was still open, you could use national defense as a reason to build it (fast route between Fort Drum and Plattsburgh). On paper, US 11 has relatively low traffic counts, but the small towns can't handle the through traffic. If you're really  lucky, it'll take under 3.5 hours to get between I-781 and I-87 and an hour and a half to travel the ~60 miles separating I-781 and Potsdam. That's too long, especially with the number of colleges up there and its status as the most direct route across the North Country.

Quote from: froggie on November 08, 2014, 10:37:37 AM
QuoteI-92/US 4, yes. It would also pull traffic off VT-NH 9. I-98/US 2, no.

US 4 could use some improvement, yes...but there isn't enough here to justify a full-fledged Interstate.  Not for the cost required to plow over the Whites and adjacent ridges.

At least get a freeway from I-87 to past Rutland (I-187?). Much of the Vermont section is already built and there's support in that part of New York for a NY 149 / US 4 bypass.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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froggie

QuoteOn paper, US 11 has relatively low traffic counts, but the small towns can't handle the through traffic.

I did not see this as an issue when I traveled the corridor this past spring.

QuoteAt least get a freeway from I-87 to past Rutland (I-187?). Much of the Vermont section is already built and there's support in that part of New York for a NY 149 / US 4 bypass.

Connecting 87 to Rutland is probably justified, but Rutland to WRJ while busy is not enough to warrant a full freeway, nevermind that the topography would make it exhorbantly expensive.

cl94

Quote from: froggie on November 08, 2014, 10:49:49 AM
QuoteOn paper, US 11 has relatively low traffic counts, but the small towns can't handle the through traffic.

I did not see this as an issue when I traveled the corridor this past spring.

QuoteAt least get a freeway from I-87 to past Rutland (I-187?). Much of the Vermont section is already built and there's support in that part of New York for a NY 149 / US 4 bypass.

Connecting 87 to Rutland is probably justified, but Rutland to WRJ while busy is not enough to warrant a full freeway, nevermind that the topography would make it exhorbantly expensive.

Try going through there during the summer or when there's something at any one of the colleges. There have been times where it's taken me half an hour to travel less than 2 miles.

I know that part of Vermont pretty well. Terrain isn't nice, traffic is high enough to make it rough at times but not high enough for an Interstate, and it can be hell during summer or winter weekends. Ideally, I'd want it to be at least 3 lanes for as much of it as possible (the Quechee Gorge bridge could remain as-is due to cost) just so there's a chance to pass slow vehicles.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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vdeane

Stefanic has been campaigning on the small business crowd that thinks the sky will fall if their towns are bypassed.  The Yes 11 group even wants to prohibit all vehicles except trucks from using the planned Canton/Potsdam bypass.  North Country politics is interesting because everyone in the area is either a farmer, small business owner, student, or professor.  Other professions are VERY rare compared to anywhere else in the state.  As such, most of the people who need to travel are somehow affiliated with the colleges.  There's some opposition from people who think there will be sprawl, but it's dwarfed by the small businesses who don't realize that the remoteness of the area has left it as depressed as the towns they claim are suffering due to the interstates and people who don't want the area connected to the rest of NY.

Honestly, the sprawl is there now.  Gouverneur, Potsdam, Malone, Massena, and Ogdensburg all have a bit of it (the former three because they're the largest towns on US 11 and the latter two because of traffic with Canada).  It would also provide the bypass Malone needs to ban trucks on US 11 like they've been wanting to do.  Traffic, while good much of the time, can get REALLY bad if all the colleges let out at once, as happens during Thanksgiving.  It used to take me an hour and a half to get from Clarkson to I-81 (I saw a decrease in 10-20 minutes of travel time when I-781 was finally finished), with most of the delays coming from Canton and Gouverneur.  US 11 can be very trying if you're stuck behind a slowpoke and don't have a gap in the traffic at a place where you can pass, and that happens nearly every time you leave the previously mentioned towns (as well as between I-781 and Philadelphia).

I think the idea of extending the US 4 freeway was to bypass Rutland.

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on November 07, 2014, 11:42:33 PM
Does Stefanic think that ON 401 is adequate for the needs of the area?
Believe it or not, the area is effectively a part of Canada every time there's a snowstorm, and it's very common for people who need to fly in or out to use Montreal's airport year round.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Alps

Quote from: froggie on November 08, 2014, 10:37:37 AM
QuoteI-92/US 4, yes. It would also pull traffic off VT-NH 9. I-98/US 2, no.

US 4 could use some improvement, yes...but there isn't enough here to justify a full-fledged Interstate.  Not for the cost required to plow over the Whites and adjacent ridges.
I think there is enough. There's more than many other places (I-91 in northern VT) that have justified Interstates. The terrain can't be any worse than I-89. Feds ought to contribute 80% and put it on the NHS.

NE2

US 4 is on the NHS.

PS: it's debatable whether I-91 in northern VT, I-95 in northern Maine, etc. are justified.
pre-1945 Florida route log

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