How do you define Upstate NY?

[empirestate]

^^This is an excellent run-down of exactly the kind of tangible factors I had in mind when posing the question.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?

Right, I would say. So now the question is, if we still agree that the Capital District is not downstate, what are the significant differences between those two regions that indicate that this is so? (And by extension, where do we draw the dividing line to most accurately delineate where those differences lie?)

[kalvado]

^^This is an excellent run-down of exactly the kind of tangible factors I had in mind when posing the question.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?

Right, I would say. So now the question is, if we still agree that the Capital District is not downstate, what are the significant differences between those two regions that indicate that this is so? (And by extension, where do we draw the dividing line to most accurately delineate where those differences lie?)

We sort-of talked about it in the beginning of the thread. Is there a line or a transition band? I would say a band is more realistic, and I would say that band includes Albany at the northern limit.

[interstatefan990]

Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate"  or "downstate" .

[kalvado]

Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate"  or "downstate" .

Native NYCer, I assume?

[interstatefan990]

Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate"  or "downstate" .

Native NYCer, I assume?

Close. Lower Westchester County. And no, my opinion isn't formed off a desire to be classified as a downstate resident. 

[webny99]

Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate"  or "downstate" .

Native NYCer, I assume?

Close. Lower Westchester County. And no, my opinion isn't formed off a desire to be classified as a downstate resident. 

I'd say Rockland, most of Orange, and Putnam are pretty definitively downstate.

[webny99]

Daytrips to NYC are easy and common from the Capital District.  They are unthinkable from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse.

I guess I am not your average person, but a day trip to the NYC area from Rochester isn't unthinkable to me. In fact, I've done such several times - granted, not to Manhattan, but to Rockland/Westchester and various parts of northern Jersey. With that said, more often than not I do end up staying overnight for at least one night when destined for somewhere in the NYC area.

I might also note that the southern Finger Lakes, especially the Watkins Glen and Ithaca areas, do get some seasonal tourist traffic from downstate and New Jersey; of course nowhere near as much as the areas north of Albany, but ironically enough it's actually pretty comparable time-wise (currently 3h 40 from NYC to Lake George and an even 4h from NYC to Ithaca).

Last year, people would wear masks on the sidewalk in the Capital District.  Such was unthinkable in Buffalo, even when there was no room for social distancing.  People here took longer to take off their masks, too; in Rochester, about half the people in Wegmans were mask-less within a week of the mandate lifting.

Not to open up this can of worms again, but I can confirm this as well. Western NY basically never wore masks outdoors, even at the height of the pandemic. It was really surprising (and almost kind of baffling, to be honest) to see that it was so commonplace further east.

Heck, the very fact that I constantly use the phrase "Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse" when talking about the metro areas of upstate - and have for all my life - excluding Albany, shows that there's a divide.  ...

Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.

I totally agree with your point here, but I think part of what others have been getting at is that they can be that different and still both be upstate. The difference between Western NY and the Capital District is plenty stark, but still in line with the type of variation you might see in other states. NYC, however, is truly just in a league of its own.

[vdeane]

By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.

Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate"  or "downstate" .

Native NYCer, I assume?

Close. Lower Westchester County. And no, my opinion isn't formed off a desire to be classified as a downstate resident. 

Well, you're definitely not upstate if you aren't calling downstate where "those other people" are.  In fact, the further north/west one is, the further north one tends to consider the line.  And "just NYC/Long Island/Westchester" is one of the more restrictive definitions I've ever seen.  Even Cuomo put Rockland County in his definition of downstate.

[webny99]

By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.

I've spent quite a bit of time in NYC's suburbs, especially Rockland County, and I don't think I'd go quite that far. There's a distinct downstate feel once you get past Middletown, and NYC's influence start to feel almost palpable once you get past Harriman, from the rude drivers, to the terrible traffic, to the expensive cars, to the quaint neighborhoods.

[Rothman]

Just like NYSDOT is OneDOT, NY is OneNY.

[KCRoadFan]

I'm not sure if anyone else has thought of this, but I like to divide the state by zip code ranges as follows:

10xxx, 11xxx: Downstate
12xxx, 13xxx, 14xxx: Upstate

Reckoning by this, the boundary would be around West Point - right in between Newburgh and the Bear Mountain Bridge. Seems about right.

[vdeane]

By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.

I've spent quite a bit of time in NYC's suburbs, especially Rockland County, and I don't think I'd go quite that far. There's a distinct downstate feel once you get past Middletown, and NYC's influence start to feel almost palpable once you get past Harriman, from the rude drivers, to the terrible traffic, to the expensive cars, to the quaint neighborhoods.

NYC is pretty unique, though, and its vibe doesn't really extend into the suburbs (bar the southernmost parts of Westchester and westernmost parts of Nassau).  The suburbs are definitely part of the metro area, but they're still suburbs not unlike any other suburb in the country (most especially other suburbs on the NEC).

I'm not sure if anyone else has thought of this, but I like to divide the state by zip code ranges as follows:

10xxx, 11xxx: Downstate
12xxx, 13xxx, 14xxx: Upstate

Reckoning by this, the boundary would be around West Point - right in between Newburgh and the Bear Mountain Bridge. Seems about right.

That would fit with the Beat Mountain Compact the politicians have (what happens north of Bear Mountain stays north of Bear Mountain).

[webny99]

By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.

I've spent quite a bit of time in NYC's suburbs, especially Rockland County, and I don't think I'd go quite that far. There's a distinct downstate feel once you get past Middletown, and NYC's influence start to feel almost palpable once you get past Harriman, from the rude drivers, to the terrible traffic, to the expensive cars, to the quaint neighborhoods.

NYC is pretty unique, though, and its vibe doesn't really extend into the suburbs (bar the southernmost parts of Westchester and westernmost parts of Nassau).  The suburbs are definitely part of the metro area, but they're still suburbs not unlike any other suburb in the country (most especially other suburbs on the NEC).

That's fair, but the question isn't exactly whether NYC's suburbs are different than any other suburbs. It's whether they are within NYC's immediate sphere of influence such that you can identify you're in the NYC area, which I would say they certainly are.

[vdeane]

That's fair, but the question isn't exactly whether NYC's suburbs are different than any other suburbs. It's whether they are within NYC's immediate sphere of influence such that you can identify you're in the NYC area, which I would say they certainly are.

Now it feels like we're looking at two different standards based on distance.  For example, here is part of your reply where I went over how the Capital District is more influenced by NYC and different from (the rest of?) Upstate:

I totally agree with your point here, but I think part of what others have been getting at is that they can be that different and still both be upstate. The difference between Western NY and the Capital District is plenty stark, but still in line with the type of variation you might see in other states. NYC, however, is truly just in a league of its own.

So I guess we're using one standard for "immediate" sphere of influence and another for places further away.  For what it's worth, Middletown and Harriman aren't even in the same MPO as NYC (OCTC vs. NYMTC).

[empirestate]

Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate"  or "downstate" .

For this thread, in order for an answer to be "right" it has to be basically an argument-winner, and furthermore should be something more tangible than just "upstate is in this county but not in that county." So, if Westchester is more in the NYC sphere of influence than Rockland, for example, what's different about one side of the Tappan Zee than the other? What does Jefferson Valley have that Mahopac doesn't? (And I'm not suggesting there aren't perfectly valid answers to these questions–just that the whole idea here is to identify them.)

[webny99]

That's fair, but the question isn't exactly whether NYC's suburbs are different than any other suburbs. It's whether they are within NYC's immediate sphere of influence such that you can identify you're in the NYC area, which I would say they certainly are.

Now it feels like we're looking at two different standards based on distance.  For example, here is part of your reply where I went over how the Capital District is more influenced by NYC and different from (the rest of?) Upstate:

I totally agree with your point here, but I think part of what others have been getting at is that they can be that different and still both be upstate. The difference between Western NY and the Capital District is plenty stark, but still in line with the type of variation you might see in other states. NYC, however, is truly just in a league of its own.

So I guess we're using one standard for "immediate" sphere of influence and another for places further away.  For what it's worth, Middletown and Harriman aren't even in the same MPO as NYC (OCTC vs. NYMTC).

To be completely clear here, while I originally supported using the 42nd parallel as the dividing line, I've now completely sold myself on the idea I proposed above, which is a line running from Port Jervis to the CT/MA/NY tri-point. That basically puts all the truly rural areas upstate, while keeping Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, most of Orange and Dutchess, and a sliver of Ulster downstate.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think everyone is in agreement that there is a transition zone where you can find features of both upstate and downstate. I think of my definition above as the far southern boundary of the transition zone, where anything south of said boundary is unambiguously downstate, but you can still find some downstate features north of there.

I think you could argue that the Albany area, or at least parts of it, are at the far northern fringes of the transition zone, but for the purposes of this thought exercise, I'm classifying the entire transition zone as upstate regardless of where one thinks it's northern boundary is, so I don't think that's inconsistent with what I've said previously. I'm not sure if that sufficiently addresses your concern about there being two standards, but that's where I stand, anyway. 

[noelbotevera]

As 2020 census data has come out, here's some other metrics to measure a dividing line:

-Population growth/loss: As the trend of dwindling rural population continues, we can use which counties lost population as a measure. Using this marks Putnam, Ulster, and Dutchess as upstate (all lost population, but Ulster lost 845 people or 0.46%), but Orange and Sullivan as downstate (both gained population, though Sullivan gained a mere 1077 people or 0.9% growth). This is also assuming that Upstate is decidedly rural in nature, which has been debated in the past.

-Density: According to the Census Bureau, an urbanized area is defined as a place with 1000 or more people per square mile. It seems that 2020 census tract data for New York isn't published yet, so I'm using an image based on 2010 data. This data suggests that much of Rockland and Westchester is urbanized, with a pocket of urbanization in Newburgh-Beacon and Poughkeepsie. If we use this definition, downstate ends at Peekskill and the Harriman State Park boundary, with Poughkeepsie and Newburgh-Beacon being its own metro area. In terms of county lines, this actually marks Orange and Putnam counties as upstate.

-Demographics: Other factors such as housing prices or racial makeup could also determine where upstate begins. Assuming that upstate is mostly white (80+%, and I'm using the "white, alone" definition) with cheap housing (less than $300k), Ulster and Dutchess meet that definition. It also depends on what you consider "mostly" white and "cheap" housing. Orange almost makes the racial cut (79.8%) and meets the cheap housing cut. Putnam makes the racial cut, but not the cheap housing cut. Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate, with a greater minority population and more expensive housing.

To conclude:

Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight

[US 41]

To me I-84 is the dividing line and there is just upstate and downstate. For most people not from New York, like myself, I think upstate NY defines everything that is not in the NYC metro area or on Long Island.

[Rothman]

As 2020 census data has come out, here's some other metrics to measure a dividing line:

-Population growth/loss: As the trend of dwindling rural population continues, we can use which counties lost population as a measure. Using this marks Putnam, Ulster, and Dutchess as upstate (all lost population, but Ulster lost 845 people or 0.46%), but Orange and Sullivan as downstate (both gained population, though Sullivan gained a mere 1077 people or 0.9% growth). This is also assuming that Upstate is decidedly rural in nature, which has been debated in the past.

-Density: According to the Census Bureau, an urbanized area is defined as a place with 1000 or more people per square mile. It seems that 2020 census tract data for New York isn't published yet, so I'm using an image based on 2010 data. This data suggests that much of Rockland and Westchester is urbanized, with a pocket of urbanization in Newburgh-Beacon and Poughkeepsie. If we use this definition, downstate ends at Peekskill and the Harriman State Park boundary, with Poughkeepsie and Newburgh-Beacon being its own metro area. In terms of county lines, this actually marks Orange and Putnam counties as upstate.

-Demographics: Other factors such as housing prices or racial makeup could also determine where upstate begins. Assuming that upstate is mostly white (80+%, and I'm using the "white, alone" definition) with cheap housing (less than $300k), Ulster and Dutchess meet that definition. It also depends on what you consider "mostly" white and "cheap" housing. Orange almost makes the racial cut (79.8%) and meets the cheap housing cut. Putnam makes the racial cut, but not the cheap housing cut. Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate, with a greater minority population and more expensive housing.

To conclude:

Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight

You failed to apply your measure to the entire state.

[empirestate]

To conclude:

Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight

I don't think I could be persuaded that any of these metrics can be defining factors, because they could be used to measure proximity to any city, not just New York. And I think this has come up before in the thread–if we use population, urbanization or density based measures, you always end up including parts of Buffalo and other cities in the "downstate" category. (And depending on the exact measure, you might exclude parts of NYC itself.)

To me I-84 is the dividing line and there is just upstate and downstate. For most people not from New York, like myself, I think upstate NY defines everything that is not in the NYC metro area or on Long Island.

Right, that's probably the assumption for many people. The purpose of this thread, though, is to take it beyond just an assumption and see if there are actual, observable characteristics–and indeed, to be able to explain to those not from New York what it actually means to be "upstate" or "downstate" in absolute terms.

[webny99]

As 2020 census data has come out, here's some other metrics to measure a dividing line:

-Population growth/loss: As the trend of dwindling rural population continues, we can use which counties lost population as a measure. Using this marks Putnam, Ulster, and Dutchess as upstate (all lost population, but Ulster lost 845 people or 0.46%), but Orange and Sullivan as downstate (both gained population, though Sullivan gained a mere 1077 people or 0.9% growth). This is also assuming that Upstate is decidedly rural in nature, which has been debated in the past.

Below is part of one of my posts from the 2020 Census thread, which provides an overview of which New York counties gained/lost population in the 2010's:

To get a bit more granular, since 2010:
-All five of NYC's boroughs grew by at least 5%
-The Long Island counties, Nassau and Suffolk, grew by 4.2% and 2.2% respectively
-Westchester County grew by 5.8%, Orange by 7.6%, and Rockland by 8.5%
-Of the remaining 52 counties, only 13 gained population, of which 10 are pretty obvious: Erie (Buffalo), Monroe (Rochester), Ontario (Rochester suburbs/exurbs), Onondaga (Syracuse), Jefferson (Watertown), Tompkins (Ithaca), Albany, Schenectady, Saratoga, Rensselaer (Albany area). The remaining 3 are oddballs: Warren (north of Albany, mostly rural, broke even with a +30 numeric increase), Hamilton (smallest county in the state with only 5,107 residents, likely a variation in seasonal residents), and Sullivan (mostly rural, but borderline NYC exurbia).
-Overall, 14 of the 15 most populous counties gained population. Dutchess is the only exception with a -0.5% loss.

With that in mind, I don't think you can say that just because a county lost population, it must be upstate; nor can you say that just because a county is rural, it must be upstate. I do, however, think that the urban/rural divide is more relevant than the population growth here, given that we tend to think of NYC's sphere of influence as extending to urbanized and suburban areas, but not the truly rural areas. Case in point: I think Sullivan County is upstate even though it grew in population. Similarly, I think Putnam and Dutchess counties are downstate even though they lost population. Ulster is a more interesting case - more on that below.

To conclude:

Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight

Yes, I think there is broad agreement about Rockland and Westchester (except maybe from people from Long Island, but they just need to get beyond NYC more often ).

I suppose Orange could be considered somewhat of a transition zone, but much of it is fairly suburban. I'd say it's pretty solidly downstate; the Port Jervis to Boston Corner line that I've been using (as discussed upthread) puts nearly all of Orange County downstate except for Port Jervis and the town of Deerpark.

Putnam County is the one I disagree with most strongly. It's definitely downstate despite the fact that it lost population. It's east of the Hudson, which has been noted as contributing to a downstate feel, and much of it is even south of I-84, another traditional dividing line. Sure, it's not as dense as Rockland or Westchester, but it's also decidedly more developed than parts of Orange and Ulster, even in its most sparsely populated areas. And towns like Brewster and Carmel are basically just an extension of Westchester County - definitely part of the greater NYC area especially given that they're served by I-684.

I also disagree with Dutchess as an upstate county. I think anyone who has been there or spent significant time there would recognize that it is very much within NYC's sphere of influence, and Poughkeepsie in particular feels very much like a downstate city. It's got a lot more in common with the towns and cities further down the Hudson than it does with anything upstate. And even though parts of the county are very rural, contributing to its stagnant population, it's also got plenty of areas that I'd classify as suburban. The dividing line I proposed above would put (roughly) the towns of Red Hook, Rhinebeck, Milan, and Pine Plains upstate, and the rest of the county downstate. Overall, I think it's a fairly solid downstate county.

Lastly, for the big fish: Ulster County. It's definitely the most challenging to place accurately because it's so varied - extremely rural in the north and west, but suburbanized and inextricably linked to NYC in the south and east. You could think of it as part of the Hudson Valley, a downstate region or as part of the Catskills, an upstate region. Because of that, I very tentatively classify it as upstate, given its size and how much of it is rural in nature, but it's the one county that I am most convinced should be split. Once again looking at the dividing line I proposed above, the towns of Plattekill, Marlborough, and Lloyd (Highland) would be considered downstate, and another four towns - New Paltz, Gardiner, Esopus, and Shawangunk - are right on the line; I lean toward considering those four downstate as well given their growth/development patterns, proximity to the Hudson, and suburban/exurban nature. Those seven towns combined have a 2020 population of about 73,000, so that would put the remaining 110k residents (and most of the county's land area) in upstate territory.

So I guess all of that is a long-winded way of saying that I really can't find too many holes to poke in the Port Jervis to Boston Corner dividing line, even though it doesn't neatly follow county lines (but then again, no good definition does). But if I was forced to divide by counties, I guess I'd say Suffolk, Nassau, NYC, Rockland, Westchester, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess are downstate and the other 50 counties are upstate, and if you cared to get more granular than that then you could flip the southeastern and northwestern corners of Ulster and Dutchess, respectively.

[noelbotevera]

I mean, if I were to use the same criteria, I would also find that Suffolk is an upstate county, since it's not dense and isolated from the city. But that's stupid, and the only people who think it'd be upstate would be people who live in Tottenville or something.

Also, obviously including Buffalo, Syracuse, or Rochester as downstate is similarly foolish. Since the contention is the Catskills area, I might as well study the statistics behind those counties and see what the Census thinks. My analysis is far from scientific since I just threw up and defined random criteria (housing price, race, population growth).

Personally I think we've exhausted most of the approaches to define the divide: cultural, social, economic, political, etc. I believe there is no line and instead the upstate-downstate transition is gradual; it's not like I could walk into a mall in Middletown and proclaim everyone there works in the city.

[D-Dey65]

Yes, I think there is broad agreement about Rockland and Westchester (except maybe from people from Long Island, but they just need to get beyond NYC more often ).

Well, we can't always cross the East River as much as we'd like to. We're not all from the Hamptons. 


As for the idea of everything north of the Bronx being upstate to us Long Islanders, there's one other factor -- geology. The terrain of Westchester and Rockland (especially Rockland) counties is far more mountainous than Long Island and most of NYC, I say most, because it does spread into the Bronx, and Upper Manhattan. But it's more noticeable once you cross the Bronx County line, even in Yonkers.... make that especially in Yonkers. I once helped some FedEx guy carry something up my driveway for a neighbor, which happens to be on a hill, and I reassured the guy he could do worse if he had lugged that item through San Francisco or Yonkers. I should've added Pittsburg to my list.

Finally in April 2019, I actually walked through the Park Hill section of Yonkers so I could capture some former Funicular railroad stations there, and I damn near killed myself just by walking up Underhill Avenue between US 9 and Alta Avenue! The hills turned out to be steeper than I ever thought they were in past drives through the city with my family!

[Roadgeekteen]

A girl at my college said that she was from a small town in upstate New York. That town... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pearl+River,+NY/@41.1096777,-74.1230192,9.51z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c2e890c570b993:0x7bd3be6686111d9b!8m2!3d41.0589855!4d-74.0218063

[empirestate]

A girl at my college said that she was from a small town in upstate New York. That town... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pearl+River,+NY/@41.1096777,-74.1230192,9.51z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c2e890c570b993:0x7bd3be6686111d9b!8m2!3d41.0589855!4d-74.0218063

The other interesting thing is the tendency of many people to refer to very large towns as small ones. Having visited many places with populations in the hundreds or a couple thousand, it never occurs to me to call any town with tens of thousands of residents "small"!