ACCESS Oklahoma

[The Ghostbuster]

Traditionally, Interstates with a 0 or a 5 have been assigned to long-distance corridors, the exceptions being Interstate 30 and Interstate 45. As this thread is about ACCESS Oklahoma, let's return talk about the proposed Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 to the Proposed US 412 Upgrade thread.

[Bobby5280]

Yes, but there's the issue of "where else would you put 50 that is both a plausible place to put an Interstate and also won't conflict with US-50". About the only place that satisfies that is...Tulsa.

I could counter that with the complaints I've heard over the years about I-30 and I-45 having major Interstate designations, despite relatively short lengths. Never mind the fact both connect to the sprawling and highly populated DFW and Houston metros.

This proposed Interstate from Springdale, thru Tulsa and to a dead-end at I-35 is not a major route and does not connect to major destinations. At least I-30 and I-45 connect to other major routes going the same general direction. The proposed AR/OK Interstate does not.

Traditionally, Interstates with a 0 or a 5 have been assigned to long-distance corridors, the exceptions being Interstate 30 and Interstate 45. As this thread is about ACCESS Oklahoma, let's return talk about the proposed Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 to the Proposed US 412 Upgrade thread.

This US-412 Interstate doesn't technically fit into the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. Although the North section of the Gilcrease Turnpike could end up being a leg on this new Interstate if the new urbanist types succeed in getting parts of the IDL removed in downtown Tulsa.

[BigOkie]

Yes, but there's the issue of "where else would you put 50 that is both a plausible place to put an Interstate and also won't conflict with US-50". About the only place that satisfies that is...Tulsa.

I could counter that with the complaints I've heard over the years about I-30 and I-45 having major Interstate designations, despite relatively short lengths. Never mind the fact both connect to the sprawling and highly populated DFW and Houston metros.

This proposed Interstate from Springdale, thru Tulsa and to a dead-end at I-35 is not a major route and does not connect to major destinations. At least I-30 and I-45 connect to other major routes going the same general direction. The proposed AR/OK Interstate does not.

Traditionally, Interstates with a 0 or a 5 have been assigned to long-distance corridors, the exceptions being Interstate 30 and Interstate 45. As this thread is about ACCESS Oklahoma, let's return talk about the proposed Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 to the Proposed US 412 Upgrade thread.

This US-412 Interstate doesn't technically fit into the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. Although the North section of the Gilcrease Turnpike could end up being a leg on this new Interstate if the new urbanist types succeed in getting parts of the IDL removed in downtown Tulsa.

Everyone keeps talking about getting rid of the IDL (at least the north leg of it) in Tulsa.  I just don't think it will happen.  There would be way too much pushback.

[swake]

OTA won in the Oklahoma Supreme Court today, 6-3. The projects are all back on.

[bugo]

OTA won in the Oklahoma Supreme Court today, 6-3. The projects are all back on.

Excellent news. The Oklahoma government does something right for a change.

[Plutonic Panda]

Very good news. I can't wait to see dirt turning especially for the South OKCMetro Projects.

[Plutonic Panda]

Non paywalled article: https://kfor.com/news/local/state-supreme-court-approves-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-bonds-for-new-toll-roads/

[Scott5114]

Here's some stupidity from the anti-turnpike crowd for you...

https://www.normantranscript.com/news/resistance-accuses-turnpike-authority-of-spying-records-indicate-agency-monitoring-social-media-posts/article_175ec1f6-37c3-11ee-8de5-1bcd32eb3db4.html

Resistance accuses Turnpike Authority of 'spying.' Records indicate agency monitoring social media posts
by Mindy Ragan Wood, the Norman Transcript

An opposition group, Pike Off OTA, has accused the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority of spying on its members and published the agency's reports of dissidents' comments on social media.

The group formed in March 2022 in resistance against OTA's ACCESS plan to construct two new toll roads in Norman. Pike Off members released internal agency reports on members' social media activity Thursday. Its members claim personal information is being stored by the agency, which is "personally compromising"  information.

Hired by OTA during the ACCESS promotion, Jones PR, through attorney Chris Scaperlanda of the McAfee & Taft law firm, called the accusations "false and defamatory statements"  because the information it collected was publicly accessible.

OTA spokeswoman Lisa Salin told The Transcript the agency monitors publicly available information to ensure misinformation and inaccuracies are addressed.

"Unfortunately, a small group of citizens has gone to unseen-before lengths to spread misinformation intentionally designed to mislead and derail true civil discourse," Salim said. "This harms everyone involved."

Keeping track of what is said on public Facebook posts is "spying" now...I can't even...

[triplemultiplex]

Why does OTA even feel the need to do that though?  Is that really their place?
I thought there is supposed to be great peril in government agencies making lists of 'malcontents'. I feel like in a different context, the monitoring of a Facebook group by a government agency would be alarming to the same people who brush it aside in this instance.

[Scott5114]

I would think that "the government knowing the opinions of their constituents" would generally be a good thing.

Unlike something like the FBI or NSA, it's not like the Turnpike Authority has any means at all to visit any sort of negative consequences on the people opposed to the turnpike. They can't, say, eminent domain protestors' homes if they aren't in the turnpike corridor. (And if they had a choice, the path of least resistance would be to avoid taking the home of someone who was so spun up they were participating in online groups about the topic.)

And, of course, if all that being said the protestors don't want OTA to know that they are against the Authority's plans (which seems counterproductive to me) or what they are doing, they could always...not post publicly on Facebook about it? Tulsans Against Turnpikes managed to form coherent, if unsuccessful, opposition to the Creek Turnpike in 1989, long before Facebook existed. And of course there were dozens of successful freeway revolts in other states in the 70s and 80s.

[bugo]

Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I-344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

[TXtoNJ]

Should be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

[bugo]

Should be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

It should be an x35 or an x40, For the immediate future, Tulsa only has one through Interstate, and it's silly and foolish and short sighted to waste x44s in OKC when we will eventually need them in Tulsa. I-42 may not be completely finished for 20 more years or so, and who knows when it will be signed.

[swake]

Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

If the state is doing that to the Kilpatrick then they should apply for the Creek Turnpike to be I-644 and when the Gilcrease is done it can be I-242

Also, remove I-444 and route I-42 along the current I-444 route on the IDL downtown.

[The Ghostbuster]

What happened to the Interstate 240 designation being extended into a 91-mile beltway around the Oklahoma City area? Did that proposal fizzle out? Besides, if the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever. Also, I find it more likely that the Kickapoo Turnpike would be designated OK 335, not Interstate 335.

[Scott5114]

What happened to the Interstate 240 designation being extended into a 91-mile beltway around the Oklahoma City area? Did that proposal fizzle out? Besides, if the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever. Also, I find it more likely that the Kickapoo Turnpike would be designated OK 335, not Interstate 335.

They got approval for it, and then never signed it. I guess they realized what a silly idea it was.

[The Ghostbuster]

They aren't the only ones. I thought the 240 proposal was silly too. I would have been fine with OK 152 and the John Kilpatrick Turnpike getting the 240 designation (or maybe the Interstate 440 designation), but I thought making the Kickapoo Turnpike part of 240 would have been a bridge too far. Given the Kickapoo Turnpike's proposed southern extension, giving that toll road a different number seemed more logical to me.

[Revive 755]

Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

I have doubts that AASHTO and FHWA will approve the I-344 designation.  The I-335 designation also seems unlikely to get fully approved until there's a connection to I-35.

[bugo]

I have doubts that AASHTO and FHWA will approve the I-344 designation.  The I-335 designation also seems unlikely to get fully approved until there's a connection to I-35.

Why do you think that? I am hoping that they reject the I-42 designation in favor of I-46, 48 or 50 because it duplicates an existing (sorta) Interstate. And the whole Kilpatrick Turnpike should be a part of I-240.

[rte66man]

If the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever.

+++1

Extending 240 to the Kilpatrick is confusing. I understand they did this to distinguish between toll and free roads, but "YOU SO STUPID" ODOT.

[Alex]

If the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever.

+++1

Extending 240 to the Kilpatrick is confusing. I understand they did this to distinguish between toll and free roads, but "YOU SO STUPID" ODOT.

Also agreed 

Furthermore, extending IH 240 west over SH 152 should require addressing the weaving traffic pattern between the current west end of IH 240 and the east end of SH 152. You have 0.7 miles to make the move along IH 44 eastbound and 1.1 miles on westbound.

[Bobby5280]

Should be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

First, the state government would have to stop treating Lawton as a complete after-thought. Until then nothing is going to happen.

I could certainly make a case for Lawton needing a "loop" of sorts, but the route would be more triangle shaped than loopy.

Rogers Lane (aka US-62) needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards, partly for safety reasons since the current 4-lane "divided" street is substandard in several categories. That would create an East-West spur off I-44 -perhaps either a "I-144" or "I-944." It could extend to Cache or even as far as Snyder and the US-183 interchange with US-62. A freeway upgrade would be fairly easy to build. Two interchanges are already existing at Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd. A new limited access interchange is badly needed at 38th Street since that intersection is down in a valley hidden from on-coming Rogers Lane traffic in both directions. Traffic back-ups at the intersection lead to frequent rear-end collisions. The intersections at 67th Street and 82nd Street have serious safety deficiencies.

Lawton badly needs a Southern bypass from I-44 to its huge industrial park on the West side of town (and a connection to the US-62 freeway West of Lawton). That could be a "I-644" or something.

A new cobalt refining facility will be built on Lawton's West side. That goes along with other factories that have been built out there. Goodyear's Lawton plant is the largest manufacturing facility in Oklahoma; expansions over the past 20 years have put it near 3 million square feet of space. The industrial park out there produces a lot of truck traffic. The trucks have to use local streets to get to I-44. Most avoid Lawton by taking 82nd Street to OK-36 and then going East to I-44. The 82nd Street road going South of Lee Blvd is absolutely beat to shit. Goodyear plant bosses and truck drivers have been raising hell about it with the county. What they need is a new diagonal route from I-44 just South of Lawton going Northwest to that industrial park -even if it just starts out as an upgrade-able Super-2 road.

Another sales pitch for that South bypass: it would help some big wigs escort VIPs from Lawton's airport to nicer parts of town out West without them having to see the older, more crappy areas along Lee Blvd closer to I-44. Yesterday at a civic club meeting I listened to the CEO of one of our hospitals describe how hard it is recruiting new doctors and specialists. The CEO said they struggle picking which route to take from the airport to the hospital campus because the most logical choices (such as SW Lee Blvd) are so freaking ugly. The visual blight is liable to scare away these prospects.

[swake]

Should be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

First, the state government would have to stop treating Lawton as a complete after-thought. Until then nothing is going to happen.

I could certainly make a case for Lawton needing a "loop" of sorts, but the route would be more triangle shaped than loopy.

Rogers Lane (aka US-62) needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards, partly for safety reasons since the current 4-lane "divided" street is substandard in several categories. That would create an East-West spur off I-44 -perhaps either a "I-144" or "I-944." It could extend to Cache or even as far as Snyder and the US-183 interchange with US-62. A freeway upgrade would be fairly easy to build. Two interchanges are already existing at Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd. A new limited access interchange is badly needed at 38th Street since that intersection is down in a valley hidden from on-coming Rogers Lane traffic in both directions. Traffic back-ups at the intersection lead to frequent rear-end collisions. The intersections at 67th Street and 82nd Street have serious safety deficiencies.

Lawton badly needs a Southern bypass from I-44 to its huge industrial park on the West side of town (and a connection to the US-62 freeway West of Lawton). That could be a "I-644" or something.

A new cobalt refining facility will be built on Lawton's West side. That goes along with other factories that have been built out there. Goodyear's Lawton plant is the largest manufacturing facility in Oklahoma; expansions over the past 20 years have put it near 3 million square feet of space. The industrial park out there produces a lot of truck traffic. The trucks have to use local streets to get to I-44. Most avoid Lawton by taking 82nd Street to OK-36 and then going East to I-44. The 82nd Street road going South of Lee Blvd is absolutely beat to shit. Goodyear plant bosses and truck drivers have been raising hell about it with the county. What they need is a new diagonal route from I-44 just South of Lawton going Northwest to that industrial park -even if it just starts out as an upgrade-able Super-2 road.

Another sales pitch for that South bypass: it would help some big wigs escort VIPs from Lawton's airport to nicer parts of town out West without them having to see the older, more crappy areas along Lee Blvd closer to I-44. Yesterday at a civic club meeting I listened to the CEO of one of our hospitals describe how hard it is recruiting new doctors and specialists. The CEO said they struggle picking which route to take from the airport to the hospital campus because the most logical choices (such as SW Lee Blvd) are so freaking ugly. The visual blight is liable to scare away these prospects.

I would propose to renumber (as it is not signed) I-444 downtown as I-442 and free up I-444 for Lawton or the Creek Turnpike was well.

[Revive 755]

I have doubts that AASHTO and FHWA will approve the I-344 designation.  The I-335 designation also seems unlikely to get fully approved until there's a connection to I-35.

Why do you think that?

I don't see that number change at OK 152 going over well.  Plus the 344 route is much more of a bypass/loop route than a spur - especially the way it is starting back towards I-44 before changing to I-240.

As for the proposed I-335:  There seems to be a general precedent against having 3di's not connected to either their parent or a 3di of with the same last two digits (I-278 being an exception due to all of the connections being cancelled).

Course if AASHTO is in a similar mood that they were when they allowed US 412 and US 400 to be created . . .

[bugo]

I-369 in Texas currently connects with I-30 but not I-69. But yes, they're rare.